What if C&RT doesnt work - where then?

[Laurence Hogg]

Yesterday whilst out boating we had a call from an old friend who was nearby, we met up at a pub.

Now this guy is well connected and a dedicated waterways enthusiast as well as true businessman, what he had to say shocked us.

 

"What happens when it fails?" was the opener. WHAT? - OK its all progressing towards next April, lots of hype about volunteers doing the work - great, Robin & Co get nice handout, maybe a gong or two, "We saved the waterways for you - cheerio". And they stroll off into the sunset over the peaceful waterways.

 

Its all fine for a few months, then the volunteers drain away leaving just a few to do the work (How many examples of this do you know?) maintenance backlog builds up, no ones coming forward anymore, some canals now have severe restrictions in place, we dont seem to be progressing like they predicted.

Then the ineviatble whammy - a breach, big nasty, serious and hellish expensive and on a major route.

All hell breaks loose as contractors set in with little experience, screw the job up, it fails again and the whole thing escalates out of proportion............

 

OK its a story for now but it could happen, ..... So the government sees red, the Trust is not capable of handling the tasks, the Trust is costing the Government a fortune.

What next? Sorry trustees this is over, we need to take this "In house", and once again "British Waterways" reincarnates itself, with a nice office in a leafy town di dah di dah di dah.

 

Have we been there before? Oh yes, remember "Railtrack"? ???? Oh yes look what happened there!

 

Could this really happen on the waterways? Well look for evidence now and in the right places there is plenty to find.

 

I know of two large businesses which have approached BW with "Win win" proposals on major tasks, one is still waiting a proper reply months on, the other was told that the task needed a bigger company to run it than the one making the proposal - even though that company is a market leader in the particular technology!!

 

Vince Moran - is he capable of producing what he talks about? Where does he get the numbers from?

Are BW "cooking the figures"? - well yes, I know Community payback workers are having their hours counted as volunteers, bet the yobs will help continue painting lock gates when they are free to go yobbing again - I guess not!

 

What worries me that our visitor has often speculated on outcomes in our waterway community before and has often been correct. If this time his forecasting has value, and BW arent really seeing the true picture then trouble will lie ahead. Only last week a meeting held with Robin Evans discussed serious shortcomings of volunteer co ordinators in the South East and South West. My own dealings with people in the Midlands leaves a lot to be desired with requests taking months to get answers and even then the issues are not addressed properly. And I am not the only one experiencing this first hand.

 

Possibly the worst thing is that current BW top end management KNOW this forthcoming scenario may or will fail and are just riding it out for the payout and the sweet goodbyes.

[Chertsey]

I'm a cynic and inclined to fear the worst, while hoping for the best, so I'm with you up to the point where they take it back into public ownership - aren't the government more likely to wash their hands of it? A lot easier than with the railways - especially if they somehow manage in the meantime to do away with statutory rights of navigation.

[14skipper]

"All ways look on the bright side of life"

14skipper

[MtB]

Your scenario Laurence sounds highly credible to me, in fact I cannot imagine any other outcome (although I'd attach longer timescales).

 

I think once a few major waterways are out of water for a year or two a serious head of political steam will build up to 'Get Something Done'. It's not like the old days now, every man and his dog likes having canals around. When they begin to fall into disuse from failure of the CART I think a few political big names will start responding to the resulting public pressure. Might take a few years but something like the National Trust might get created once the CART get kicked into touch, but probably with some govt funding.

[carlt]

Might take a few years but something like the National Trust might get created once the CART get kicked into touch, but probably with some govt funding.

I think, more likely, C&RT will end up something like EH who, in their early years, didn't know their arse from their elbow.

 

I think, whoever is running it, an underfunded waterways system will deteriorate and shrink back to the stage it was at in the late 70s, early 80s and be, hopefully, manageable at that level.

[MtB]

I think, more likely, C&RT will end up something like EH who, in their early years, didn't know their arse from their elbow.

What's EH? (Sure I know, just can't put the words to it, duh...)

 

 

I think, whoever is running it, an underfunded waterways system will deteriorate and shrink back to the stage it was at in the late 70s, early 80s and be, hopefully, manageable at that level.

 

Yes good point. It's certainly struck me on a sub-verbal level that the ever increasing milage of cut in water is an ever growing maintenance burden on BW. Lop a few hundred miles out of the system and the remainder will be easier to look after, and all the blind alleys will make great places for the CMers to live....

[carlt]

What's EH? (Sure I know, just can't put the words to it, duh...)

 

Sorry, English Heritage.

 

It still has problems but its priorities are usually in the right place.

[Québec]

While there is an obvious 'national interest' case for keeping the trains running, what or where is the case for keeping the canals 'running' apart from the 'heritage' argument.....which I suspect won't hold much water in the prolonged economically straightened times ahead.

[Pretty Funked Up]

While there is an obvious 'national interest' case for keeping the trains running, what or where is the case for keeping the canals 'running' apart from the 'heritage' argument.....which I suspect won't hold much water in the prolonged economically straightened times ahead.

 

Theres also tourism. I hope they are bothered about that. I'm regularily near the wyvern company and I'd say half of the customers are foreign. Difficult to say but it actually may be more than half. They seem to come from all over for the UK canal experience, in the summer of course.

 

we should play the tourism card if it really gets that bad.

[Pluto]

While there is an obvious 'national interest' case for keeping the trains running, what or where is the case for keeping the canals 'running' apart from the 'heritage' argument.....which I suspect won't hold much water in the prolonged economically straightened times ahead.

The national interest is in the land drainage and flood protection which canals and river navigations provide. I have asked DEFRA and the minister several times about how this aspect of canals will be funded when BW becomes a charity to be given evasive answers which did not address my specific questions. They do not want to admit that canals are important for any other function other than leisure.

[Hairy-Neil]

I'm a cynic and inclined to fear the worst, while hoping for the best, so I'm with you up to the point where they take it back into public ownership - aren't the government more likely to wash their hands of it? A lot easier than with the railways - especially if they somehow manage in the meantime to do away with statutory rights of navigation.

 

Weren't they (the BW ones) extinguished with the 1968 Transport Act...

[Neil2]

I spent a whole day on the boat last week doing odd jobs.

During that time just one boat passed by, but the usual procession of anglers, joggers, dog walkers and predictably, speeding mountain bikers went on unabated.

 

I access the mooring through a handcuff locked gate which technically is not supposed to be used by boat owners, but has been for yonks. Doing so I was challenged by a brightly coloured woman with an iPod and shiny running shoes who wanted to know if I was "authorised" to take my car through the gate. I explained that as I was paying quite a lot of money to have my boat on the canal and moor it at this location, as far as I was concerned yes, I was authorised. And if she didn't mind me asking, why was she so interested? "well I live here" she replied, "and I'm fed up with the cars making a mess of the (tow) path."

 

And with that she was off. For once in my life I was genuinely speechless. The only words i could think of were all profanities.

 

Leaving aside the fact that this particular section of towpath is hard surfaced, and not adversly affected by the passage of vehicles, and it is a BW service road anyway, what outraged me was the sheer ignorance of someone asserting their rights as a pedestrian over and above someone who actually contributes directly to the provision of the faclities she enjoys.

 

I used to think that the general public will cease to find the canals appealing if the boats disappear, but what seems to be happening on the Leeds Liverpool is the reverse. So far as the public are concerned the towpath is the canal. It is a rat run, a dog toilet, a linear pitch for (mostly surly) anglers, and a nice flat running track for keep fit wannabees who like the idea of running so long as it doesn't involve going uphill. I honestly think some towpath users see boaters as an inconvenience.

 

So don't worry, so long as the towpath is kept maintained and they occasionally cut the grass, no problem.

[Higgs]

With the Quango about to come to an end, will R.Evans and co be going on holiday with a nice big fat, money for old rope, payoff?

 

Does that leave Tony Hales heading up the Trustees and overall head of C&RT?

[jenlyn]

With the Quango about to come to an end, will R.Evans and co be going on holiday with a nice big fat, money for old rope, payoff?

 

Does that leave Tony Hales heading up the Trustees and overall head of C&RT?

As dodwell states in his reply to the boaters manifesto, "robin Evans and co will stay on"

[Albion]

snipped

 

I think, whoever is running it, an underfunded waterways system will deteriorate and shrink back to the stage it was at in the late 70s, early 80s and be, hopefully, manageable at that level.

 

I agree entirely. IMO it will return to what we had then, Cruiseways (maintained), Remainder (only maintained for safety aspects but, otherwise, you boated at your own risk, refilling pounds, running water down from pound to pound, coaxing open lock gates, managing with single paddles, fighting through reed/weed growth etc, etc). This system allowed them to focus resources on what they then considered important and could be used to focus resources again. It will be a shame if it ever returns to that as it will negate a lot of work spent opening closed canals and getting those neglected ones back to a usable state, but seems to me a likely scenario.

Roger

[muddywaters]

Well tbh the original poster has only heightened what has already been my biggest concern.

Will the trust be able to cope with a major breach which will happen at some point.

 

On a lighter note if you play around with the abbreviation of C&RT you get

 

The Cart

[Higgs]

As dodwell states in his reply to the boaters manifesto, "robin Evans and co will stay on"

 

 

Got it.............different clothes, old boss. But I seem to have read that John Dodswell was reported to have said in essence; lets get the handover complete before the question of getting rid of directors is considered.

[carlt]

Well tbh the original poster has only heightened what has already been my biggest concern.

Will the trust be able to cope with a major breach which will happen at some point.

I assume that a major breach would be treated in the same manner as any other disaster and the responsible authority would work alongside the emergency services and any contractors brought in to deal with it.

 

Canals are not rocket science and BW are not the only ones who can cope with them (I would say they are not even the best people to cope with them).

 

They are basic civil engineering structures and there are plenty of qualified people out there who could step in and help, in the event of of a disaster.

[Athy]

Back in the 1980s, canals were still viewed by many as stinking ditches to be avoided. In the three decades since then, they have become desirable areas of towns, with des. res'es along their banks increasing in value and decreasing in availability.

If canals do start to fall into disrepair under the new regime, the (often affluent and influential) new breed of cnalside dwellers will not be slow to exert pressure on their local council and/ or M.P., as they will want to keep their locations select and desirable.

This may sound cynical, but I can imagine happening. I just hope that it never needs to happen.

[Guest]

I assume that a major breach would be treated in the same manner as any other disaster and the responsible authority would work alongside the emergency services and any contractors brought in to deal with it.

 

Canals are not rocket science and BW are not the only ones who can cope with them (I would say they are not even the best people to cope with them).

 

They are basic civil engineering structures and there are plenty of qualified people out there who could step in and help, in the event of of a disaster.

I have to agree 100%. We had a breach on the Leeds and Liverpool probably about 9 years ago now. Your quote in brackets "(I would say they are not even the best people to cope with them)" could not be more appropriate. To my mind BW are not a hard act to follow.

 

My comments do not refer to the ground troops, many of whom are very good, but the ineffectiveness as an organisation.

[greywolf]

You have to ask who the volunteers are likely to be.The unemployed who can only do a max of 15 hours a week or risk there money being stopped,the Retired,and the imprisoned. Then you can add enthusiasts that can do stints every now and again/regular weekends.In this they will be competing with other calls for volunteers.

 

I really do not mind the idea of volunteering in principal but it would i think be annoying to know that your work was going to keep the less than competent well/over payed in there job,it would still annoy even if they were doing a good job.Perhaps the restoration groups will then have to run the canals afterwards with toll houses at the junction with the BW waters and collecting mooring fees,maybe even having a boatyard to generate it's income.

 

The towpaths could be maintained by the fishing, cycling and rambling organizations.LOL Then again maybe not

[Guest]

Back in the 1980s, canals were still viewed by many as stinking ditches to be avoided. In the three decades since then, they have become desirable areas of towns, with des. res'es along their banks increasing in value and decreasing in availability.

If canals do start to fall into disrepair under the new regime, the (often affluent and influential) new breed of cnalside dwellers will not be slow to exert pressure on their local council and/ or M.P., as they will want to keep their locations select and desirable.

This may sound cynical, but I can imagine happening. I just hope that it never needs to happen.

I believe canal side dwellers, and people from many walks of life (other than boaters) will object strongly to any deterioration of the system. I for one can never tie up anywhere for long, before interested (non boating) members of the public are asking questions about our waterways and showing a genuine interest. There are of course many businesses that have grown around the waterways who will presumably fight for their upkeep. I remain optimistic that the system will survive; it has survived this far against the odds.

[Laurence Hogg]

Thanks so far for some very well thought out comments and answers.

 

Another serious concern which manifests itself on a regular basis is local authorities not realizing that the canal in their patch is a joined up system. I constantly come up against this with well meaning councillors saying "is this anything to do with canal that we go over on the way to.."? Many cannot embrace the idea of a water highway - sadly maybe they never look at a map!

 

But another point my old friend brought up was costs. Just in reality how are you going to charge cyclists, dog walkers, fishermen, horse riders ramblers who constantly use the towpath? The short answer is with great difficulty - if you want more money then hit the soft targets. And who is that?

 

1. The marine industry, bases, moorings, slips, remaining hire fleets all who have a collective number of ways of being "drained" of cash.

 

2, The boaters, whack the licence and mooring fees up, BW (IMO) no longer consider boating to be for "everyone", they know that you need a substantial income to own and run a expensive boat so you can probably afford to shell out more.

 

The "Watford" lot will survive to enter into the C&RT so you will still have the same level of gross incompetance and dissconnect that exists today. The culture will not change so little else stands much of a chance as far as sensible change is concerned.

[Athy]

Your comment about the "joined-up system" is a good one. Many people like to see a pretty canal with attractive boats, charming ducks etc. on it, but seem to imagine that this like a preserved steam railway, starting nowhere in particular, chugging six miles before ending at nowhere in particular.

I was chatting to a non-boating acquaintance of mine recently and mentioned the Grand Union Canal. When I explained that it ran from London to Birmingham he was very surprised, as he had no idea that canals had been built to link major commercial and industrial centres.

[Higgs]

Nero *sings, while Rome burns. The ad men/women will be hard at it throwing sunshine and light onto the situation.

 

No one wants to see C&RT fail, but people say it's prudent to look to the future with an eye on the past. It's not easy to take it for granted that all will be well. Looking after the canal hasn't been easy and probably won't change on that score.

 

I think on top of whatever grant we have, the goverment should consider a one-off slush fund for dire needs. The initial bedding down phase of the charity will be difficult, like most businesses. There doesn't seem to be any apparent logic to the run up and finance. Either they are the most optimistic people around or are just trying to wing it.

 

 

* didn't want to put 'fiddles' in there.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Higgs