Smoking lots....

[cereal tiller]

BMC'S are well known for making smoke when cold starting.

 

one cause of smoke that has not yet been mentioned,is worn valve stem seals and guides.

 

if the valve guides or seals are worn,a drop or two of engine oil will weep down the valve stems to the cylinder head.

 

just one or two drops will create lots of smoke.

 

does the engine smoke after a warm start-up,say,when it has been shut down for half an hour or so?

[Tony Brooks]

The Water Pump pulley on our BMC 1.5 engine is die cast, not a steel pressing, which is what also appears to be on Roxy's engine.

 

I have been running a 13mm belt on our engine for more than 5 years now, and without checking I cannot say whether the Water Pump pulley was opened out or not, but it has worked fine so far and we are still on the first belt.

 

The engineer who re-built our engine has an outstanding reputation, and he would not have done it if it would cause problems.

Edited to add:- I have just found a photo of the pulleys on our 1.5, before modification, and the channel on the die cast Pump pulley appears to be wider than the original 9.5 channel on the engine pulley, so maybe it did not need modifying. I will try to uploasd a photo later.

 

 

I fear we can not take one particular BMC engine to be representative of all of them. There are at least three or four different water pumps for instance and some only use 3 bolts for the pulley.

 

My take on Roxy's photo was that it is a pressed metal pulley and this is based on what looks like a radius on the circumference of the pulley sides and a possible radius on the centre boss where as the cast pulley has a chamfer. Still its hard to tell from a photo.

[David Schweizer]

I fear we can not take one particular BMC engine to be representative of all of them. There are at least three or four different water pumps for instance and some only use 3 bolts for the pulley.

 

My take on Roxy's photo was that it is a pressed metal pulley and this is based on what looks like a radius on the circumference of the pulley sides and a possible radius on the centre boss where as the cast pulley has a chamfer. Still its hard to tell from a photo.

Hardly one particular engine Tony, one of several types maybe.

Edited October 31, 2011 by David Schweizer

[Evo]

So do you have a BMC 1.5 in your boat that starts immediately without heat, and with no smoke?

 

No, I have a 1.8 that starts instantly and barely smokes. Who said anything about no heat..?? Clatter my starter motor in and its going - instantly. Just like an Isuzu, Just like my VW van.

 

Dont bother with the heater plugs though when its cold and let it crank half a dozen times until it starts and hey presto a smoke screen.

 

It pisses me off that everyone thinks its normal for that engine to smoke like that. Its utter rubbish, alot do do it but they shouldn't and if they are doing it there is something wrong.

 

Every boat I've been on for any length of time has had a BMC 1.5 or 1.8. The owner of one of the 1.5's had the engine fully reconditioned to stop the smoke problem, only to find it was his tired but still functioning starter all along. I've know people spend a fortune on injectors and injector pumps when there is sod all wrong with them, the engine just needed to crank faster to start sooner.

[bizzard]

Anyway,her alternator drive belt looks a bit worn to me ,well squashed down into the pulley grooves,a new belt correctly adjusted would probably be sufficient.

[David Schweizer]

No, I have a 1.8 that starts instantly and barely smokes. Who said anything about no heat..?? Clatter my starter motor in and its going - instantly. Just like an Isuzu, Just like my VW van.

 

Dont bother with the heater plugs though when its cold and let it crank half a dozen times until it starts and hey presto a smoke screen.

 

It pisses me off that everyone thinks its normal for that engine to smoke like that. Its utter rubbish, alot do do it but they shouldn't and if they are doing it there is something wrong.

 

Every boat I've been on for any length of time has had a BMC 1.5 or 1.8. The owner of one of the 1.5's had the engine fully reconditioned to stop the smoke problem, only to find it was his tired but still functioning starter all along. I've know people spend a fortune on injectors and injector pumps when there is sod all wrong with them, the engine just needed to crank faster to start sooner.

Despite your assertions, it is quite normal for the BMC 1.5 to issue some smoke when started from cold. I am old enough to remember when the BMC 1.5 was standard in the Austin J4 Vans, and they always issued a small cloud of smoke when they were started from cold, even when new. They also left a little pool of oil on the road if left for any length of time, something to do with not having a crankshaft oil seal at the back end of the engine.

 

The 1.8 is a different engine, and as already indicated by others, is a much better starter, partially because of the much more powwerful heater plugs.

Edited October 31, 2011 by David Schweizer

[cereal tiller]

Despite your assertions, it is quite normal for the BMC 1.5 to issue some smoke when started from cold. I am old enough to remember when the BMC 1.5 was standard in the Austin J4 Vans, and they always issued a small cloud of smoke when they were started from cold, even when new. They also left a little pool of oil on the road if left for any length of time, something to do with not having a crankshaft oil seal at the back end of the engine.

 

The 1.8 is a different engine, and as already indicated by others, is a much better starter, partially because of the much more powwerful heater plugs.

seconded.

having installed about 70 BMC 1.5's,and a simlar number of 1.8's,all brand new,the 1.5's did smoke more than the 1.8's

 

2.5's and the older 2'2's smoked from cold as well,more so than the smaller engines.

 

my 2.5 emits a lot of smoke for the first few seconds after a cold start,after that,it runs smoke free all day.

 

less smoke this year,since march,using the new fuel.

[Roxy]

My engine starts up mostly on the second turn of the key, after about 5 to 10 mins of running from cold the smoke has cleared. Its clear then the rest of the day if I moor up somewhere and go back an hour or so later. This is not the best picture I have but you can see the control on the right hand side of the steering wheel, the silver button is just underneath. You can see the choke underneath that. I have to pull this out to start the engine and keep it out while the engine is running, if I push it in it cuts the engine off.

 

 

 

Bizzard - I sometimes open her up when I nip to Sawley obviously when no other boats are about Not sure how fast she goes as the speedo dont work, but is on the things to do list.

 

When I cleaned out underneath the engine there was approx 8 litres of liquid, mostly oil, not sure how long its been there or when it was last cleaned out. I was going to put some antifreeze in but my neighbour told me to just put water and oil in for now and see this weekend if there is a leak somewhere as he said you dont want to stick £14 worth of antifreeze in for it all to leak back out. To find that amount of liquid seems to me quite worrying.......

[bizzard]

My engine starts up mostly on the second turn of the key, after about 5 to 10 mins of running from cold the smoke has cleared. Its clear then the rest of the day if I moor up somewhere and go back an hour or so later. This is not the best picture I have but you can see the control on the right hand side of the steering wheel, the silver button is just underneath. You can see the choke underneath that. I have to pull this out to start the engine and keep it out while the engine is running, if I push it in it cuts the engine off.

 

 

 

Bizzard - I sometimes open her up when I nip to Sawley obviously when no other boats are about Not sure how fast she goes as the speedo dont work, but is on the things to do list.

 

When I cleaned out underneath the engine there was approx 8 litres of liquid, mostly oil, not sure how long its been there or when it was last cleaned out. I was going to put some antifreeze in but my neighbour told me to just put water and oil in for now and see this weekend if there is a leak somewhere as he said you dont want to stick £14 worth of antifreeze in for it all to leak back out. To find that amount of liquid seems to me quite worrying.......

You might have an old CAV inline injector pump on your engine instead of the later DPA,these old pumps are much tougher and forgiving than the later DPA pumps. i couldn't quite tell in your pic,in that case it could have the cold start fuel enrichener pull device, which does the same as a choke on a petrol engined car.

It looks like, but again i can't quite see,you have the old type,nice and neat Morse control lever with pull out disengage gearbox knob below,much nicer than the more modern great clunky powerboat type control lever.

Edited October 31, 2011 by bizzard

[Evo]

Despite your assertions, it is quite normal for the BMC 1.5 to issue some smoke when started from cold

 

Most diesels issue some smoke.. I'm not saying no smoke at all, I'm saying plumes of the suff as in Roxy's pic. No engine should smoke like that on startup and if they do they are usually poor starters due to faulty plugs or slow cranking.

 

My engine has the earlier plugs as do alot of early 1.8's. Its not difficult to see how many seconds you need to have them on, Take one out, connect it back up and lay it on the head. Hold key in heater plug position and count how long it takes for it to glow orange. When mine were new it was 15 secs.

 

12 years ago before our engine went into the boat when I was starting and running it in the garage it didn't smoke at all. About 5 years later it started smoking on start up a bit like the above pic. 2 heater plugs were dodgy and the starter motor was tardy. I cleaned up the old starter and replaced the plugs...all was fine again. This year it started doing it again. The old starter (that I got off a 100,000mile scabby sherpa years ago) had finally bitten the dust (still working and apparently fine) but just seemed a little slow again. I put on the new starter I'd bought off Ebay and blimey the difference was a joke. It now starts instantly and does not smoke, and even more noticeable was that I was back to 15secs on the heater plugs again and I hadn't changed or even touched them.

 

So Roxy...what do you mean by second turn of the key...how long have you been cranking it on the first turn of the key, cos thats whats squirted the unburnt fuel into the exhaust and is what you can see burning away on startup.

 

Diesels require top condition starting systems.

[David Mack]

You can see the choke underneath that. I have to pull this out to start the engine and keep it out while the engine is running, if I push it in it cuts the engine off.

 

And is that how you normally stop the engine? Or does it stop when you take the key out?

 

Does the knob say "choke" on it?

 

As others have said this may simply be an engine stop knob - not uncommon on older diesel engine installations, and often using a choke knob and cable, simply because they are readily available (or were when cars had manual chokes).

 

A failure to reset the engine stop used to be a common cause of engines failing to start!

 

David

[Davidss]

You might have an old CAV inline injector pump on your engine instead of the later DPA,these old pumps are much tougher and forgiving than the later DPA pumps. i couldn't quite tell in your pic,in that case it could have the cold start fuel enrichener pull device, which does the same as a choke on a petrol engined car. ....

OK, I don't know the differences between the pumps you mention, but Roxy says "if I push it in it cuts the engine off", which tends to support my suggestion that it 'is' the engine stop control.

 

Cheers.

[Alan de Enfield]

I was going to suggest some sort of decompression lever (as I have on my engine - but thats pull out, turn over engine and push back in to start, then pull out to stop) but this appears to be pull out to start and push in to stop.

 

No idea.

[Roxy]

And is that how you normally stop the engine? Or does it stop when you take the key out?

 

Does the knob say "choke" on it?

 

As others have said this may simply be an engine stop knob - not uncommon on older diesel engine installations, and often using a choke knob and cable, simply because they are readily available (or were when cars had manual chokes).

 

A failure to reset the engine stop used to be a common cause of engines failing to start!

 

David

 

David, it does not say anything on the knob, I was told that I needed to pull it out before starting the engine and to push it in when I needed to turn it off. If I take the key out my engine keeps running

[bizzard]

OK, I don't know the differences between the pumps you mention, but Roxy says "if I push it in it cuts the engine off", which tends to support my suggestion that it 'is' the engine stop control.

 

Cheers.

She could have it all fixed up on one lever,first movement or pull cold start enrichener,right over or pull right out,engine stop. Most old trucks and a lot of boats used that arrangement years ago.

[Guest]

David, it does not say anything on the knob, I was told that I needed to pull it out before starting the engine and to push it in when I needed to turn it off. If I take the key out my engine keeps running

 

If you turn off and take out the keys from our ignition our engine continues to run, that is normal. Diesels only stop when you stop the fuel supply as they do not require a source of ignition like a petrol engine, rather the compression created inside the engine.

 

This knob now sounds like some sort of fuel supply/engine stop control control.

[Roxy]

 

 

So Roxy...what do you mean by second turn of the key...how long have you been cranking it on the first turn of the key, cos thats whats squirted the unburnt fuel into the exhaust and is what you can see burning away on startup.

 

Diesels require top condition starting systems.

 

Approx 5 to 6 secs

[Neil2]

I think Evo has made a very valid point re starting systems on diesels.

 

I too have a lot of smoke on starting, and though the engine (1.8) always fires first time, it does take a good 5 seconds or more, during which time a lot of white smoke is already coming out the exhaust. I've renewed the glow plugs and i think a new starter motor is next. You get used to poor starting and forget what should happen. My transit was displaying similar symptoms until I replaced the starter motor - now it seems to fire before I've turned the key.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Neil2

[Geoff Taylor]

Hi

Regarding the "stop" button,it seems to me that it has for some reason been connected to the wrong side of the stop lever on the injector pump,this can be done as the lever overhang where the return spring is normally attached now has the cable there and the spring on the other end. If the cable is sited nearest the engine block,the opposing pull/push action will apply.

 

I find that most older (non Japanese) engines do smoke a little more due to age,tired injection components, glow plugs etc upon cold starting. The air temperature makes a big difference,hold glow plugs on longer,no two engines are the same,fuel smoke for up to a minute is no real sign of a major problem (unless it is non british!!). It may sound wrong but an engine with a dirty fuel filter will smoke more than one with a clean one!

 

Hope this helps

Geoff

[David Schweizer]

 

I find that most older (non Japanese) engines do smoke a little more due to age,tired injection components, glow plugs etc upon cold starting. The air temperature makes a big difference,hold glow plugs on longer,no two engines are the same,fuel smoke for up to a minute is no real sign of a major problem (unless it is non british!!). It may sound wrong but an engine with a dirty fuel filter will smoke more than one with a clean one!

 

Hope this helps

Geoff

That more or less reflects my experience. Our 1981 BMC 1.5, was completey re-built five years ago - everthing that moved was either serviced,re-ground, bored out, or replaced. The re-built engine has only done 900 hours, and smokes a little when started in the summer without pre-heating, but smokes quite a lot when started from cold in the winter. In extreem weather it can take up to a minutes pre-heating if the engine has not been run for several weeks.

 

By the way, the engine runs much better since it's re-build, and feels more solid and sound compared to it's performance when it had done 20,000 hours.

Edited October 31, 2011 by David Schweizer

[Evo]

In extreem weather it can take up to a minutes pre-heating if the engine has not been run for several weeks

 

Well there is something wrong there David. An effectively new engine requiring a minutes pre-heat and smoking like a mad thing on startup. If I'd just bought that new I'd be straight back with it.

I realise its not new, but its not that old either.

 

If a diesel takes a while to start there is one fundamental reason, compression not great enough to ignite fuel. The colder it is the more critical it is everything is perfect.

 

Problem can be the horible things like worn out bores/piston rings, blowing head gasket, but its usually the fact that the starter motor is as tired as the rest of the engine and is simply not 'cranking' fast enough.

I've done loads of cars and motorcycles with the same problem. New batteries, spark plugs, ignition systems, and all it turned out to be was the starter motor. Funny thing is most vehicle engines will start first time with a 'bump' or tow start, even ones you've benn cranking for ages on the starter motor. Pretty obvious why.

 

It seems we are quite prepared to accept our boat engines playing up, especially if its an old BMC. 2 or 3 goes on the key, 1 minutes pre-heat, loads of smoke...puddles of oil on the floor, oh its just what everyone says that engine does.??? Well yours might do some or all those things but I'm a perfectionist with engines and mine does none of them for long.

 

In most cases if it was your car doing stuff like that you wouldn't put up with it.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Evo

[bizzard]

Well there is something wrong there David. An effectively new engine requiring a minutes pre-heat and smoking like a mad thing on startup. If I'd just bought that new I'd be straight back with it.

I realise its not new, but its not that old either.

 

If a diesel takes a while to start there is one fundamental reason, compression not great enough to ignite fuel. The colder it is the more critical it is everything is perfect.

 

Problem can be the horible things like worn out bores/piston rings, blowing head gasket, but its usually the fact that the starter motor is as tired as the rest of the engine and is simply not 'cranking' fast enough.

I've done loads of cars and motorcycles with the same problem. New batteries, spark plugs, ignition systems, and all it turned out to be was the starter motor. Funny thing is most vehicle engines will start first time with a 'bump' or tow start, even ones you've benn cranking for ages on the starter motor. Pretty obvious why.

 

It seems we are quite prepared to accept our boat engines playing up, especially if its an old BMC. 2 or 3 goes on the key, 1 minutes pre-heat, loads of smoke...puddles of oil on the floor, oh its just what everyone says that engine does.??? Well yours might do some or all those things but I'm a perfectionist with engines and mine does none of them for long.

 

In most cases if it was your car doing stuff like that you wouldn't put up with it.

It sounds like a bit of air is somehow creeping into the fuel system and it therefor takes more cranking to disperse it before the engine starts.this is quite common with diesel engines that are not started for long periods.

[Evo]

My transit was displaying similar symptoms until I replaced the starter motor - now it seems to fire before I've turned the key

 

Thats a poignant phrase, yes, it should appear to do that. None of this whirr, whirr, whirr, rubbish.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Evo

[Neil2]

Thats a poignant phrase, yes, it should appear to do that. None of this whirr, whirr, whirr, rubbish.

 

A few more thoughts.

 

My first car was an Austin A40 farina (a car that many of you will never even have seen) and I almost always used the starting handle to fire it up as it was more effective than the starter motor. Being my first car I didn't have the nous to work out why. But then again why is it the motor is often the most difficult ancillary to replace? I had a Porsche 924 and eventually did replace the starter on that but what a job. When the Haynes manual refers to access being "a little awkward" you know what you're in for. But boy did it make a difference. All the time I wasted mucking about with the fuel injection just because replacing the starter was a swine of a job.

[David Schweizer]

A few more thoughts.

 

My first car was an Austin A40 farina (a car that many of you will never even have seen) and I almost always used the starting handle to fire it up as it was more effective than the starter motor. Being my first car I didn't have the nous to work out why. But then again why is it the motor is often the most difficult ancillary to replace? I had a Porsche 924 and eventually did replace the starter on that but what a job. When the Haynes manual refers to access being "a little awkward" you know what you're in for. But boy did it make a difference. All the time I wasted mucking about with the fuel injection just because replacing the starter was a swine of a job.

How young do you think we are? my first car was an Austin Seven Ruby, it was some years before I graduated to an Austin A40 Devon, followed by an A40 Somerset.