Painting a Our Boat

[sueb]

Thanks for all the responses so far, I will be following up some of them.

 

I am also grateful for offers of help, but I have more or less decided that, even with willing help, I am getting too old to mess about with hours of manual labour doing something I am not particularly enthusiastic about or competent in doing. So I think I will be looking for proffessional intevention, I have already checked out some prices and it would appear that I could get a good job done within my budget, which will be courtesy of my late Mum.

 

I will be a bit upset that the signwriting and decoration will have to be done by someone other than Ron Hough (who has decorated our boat for the past thirty years), as he is no longer doing any Dock painting, unless I can persuade him to do it against Doctor's Orders!

Victoria at the Boatyard Hilperton won't charge £8000.

Sue

[LEO]

From what Mike,(Leo), has indicated about costs, and given I suspect David's cabin is longer, and will probably need some window removal and treatment underneath, I rather suspect that the costs may be nearly as high as that £8K figure.

 

But I agree, they seem to do an excellent job, and would be worth talking to, particularly as they will be relatively easy for David to get the boat to.

 

Yes, Have just collected my boat from OBPCo, really good and am, very pleased with the quality of work. Clear Estimate policy, prices for window renewal and an inspection of the boat prior to final estimate.

 

Work progresses under cover and pictures are posted indicating how work is proceeding. They welcome inspections.

 

Suggest you check their website.

 

Paint - Craftmaster/Narrowboat paint.

 

50ft minimum charge, bare metal repaint.

 

Standard costs £100 per foot, with additions for window removal (mine did not need this) and signwriting is extra (they recommended Dean Box from Bedford, he did a good job).

 

Hope that helps.

 

Leo.

[Phil Speight]

I have just come into a small legacy and was wondering whether it would stretch to having Helvetia re-painted, something which she has needed for more than ten years!! Superficialay the boat looks reasonably OK, if rather faded,, but there are a lot of small areas of rust, especially around the windows, and where the sides have been kicked by people walking along the gunwhales. It is also painted (very well I might add) in Dulux Weather Shield which has lasted well, but I doubt whether it would form a good base for moderrn Marine Emnamels. The roof is very bad and is covered in rust spots

 

I guess that all the paint will need to be removed along with the windows, everything de-rusted and filled before any proper work can be started. Ideally, I would love to ask someone like Phil Speight or Dave Moore, but I suspect that my paltry £8,000 I have would be an insult to them. Is there anyone out there who has had the job done as thoroughly recently, and can recommend someone, preferrably within only a few days cruising from Napton. Of course if Phil or Dave are reading this, do they have reduced rates for "deserving pensioners" ?

 

edited to add:- Helvetia is 52 ft and the cabin is aproximately 38ft long.

 

Oops, just pressed the greenie instead of the Edit button!

I don`t actually do the hard work any more - but my ex-staff have taken over that side of the business and do the same quality of work we always did. They will ,I`m sure , give you some change out of your budget and that would include decorative work and signwriting by either myself or my colleague Meg Gregory.

 

I won't repeat myself.

 

Flat every inch of a 60 footer of a re-paint. Multiply that by each coat. Taping up, scollops. Cleaning, vacuuming........ Don't forget to spend a few hours removing all the silicon. Take fixings off, mushrooms, horns, lamps, cratch.....etc. At the end of the job, fit them all back. It's not all about painting.

 

Estimate the time it takes to tape up a boat for coachlines, with a pinstripe inside that, in a different colour, three panels each side, with scollops. When you've done that, do the mickey mouse ears on the rear bulkhead. Put a candy twist on the tiller. Don't forget the decoration on the bow. When you've finished the coachlines etc, take all the tape of and believe me it's very quick to do in the head. Try it for real.

 

I've scraped quite a few sand-coated roofs without the use of a scabler, 3 to 4 days. With a scabler, 2 hrs.

 

I can paint a sliding hatch in less than a minute and a decent-sized cabin side, with windows, in 45 mins +/-.

 

Each boat varies, so does the amount of rust and grinding. 200 hrs is not abnormal in real life boat painting.

 

The signwriting alone can take a couple of days and cost well over £1,000 .

Ye Gods - over a grand for two days signwriting ! Whose doing it - a hologram of Frank Nurser? They say I cost a lot at £180.00 per day.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Phil Speight

[WotEver]

Whose doing it - a hologram of Frank Nurser?

[Jayseaess]

Has anybody used S & G Refinshers?

 

www.sgrefinishers.co.uk

[sebrof]

I wish. You spend all that money and after the first winter watch the micro blisters because there was snow on the roof and decks.

 

Well, that's not a good paint job.

[bizzard]

No dust if you paint it out at sea.

If not hose down if on a dusty path. An airline and compressor is invaluable for blowing rubbing down dust away too.

Rylard paint is very forgiving if it gets cold or a bit damp. bizzard

[ditchcrawler]

Well, that's not a good paint job.

That is easy to say 12 months down the road. It was done by a painter with a good reputation using what can be regarded as good quality paint in a heated building. I had seen his work on other boats that had been done between 3 and 9 years that still looked very good.

I wont name names as I don't think it was his fault but I don't know who's it was. Since then I have met other boaters that have had the same problem with different painters and different paints.

[Chertsey]

David

Have a chat with Martin oCallaghan at Alvecote marina

Top job

top prices

Chris

He just did Chertsey and I was very pleased with the result. See the 'British Waterways' thread in H&H for pics.

Have you considered having it shotblasted? If you can find somewhere to get it done it makes everything afterwards so much easier.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Thats the problem, I have been at it myself for years, with very little progress. The back panels doors, and front end were done some years ago, with the back panels being re-furbished last year, about 20% of the roof has been done - a very slow job, and the deck boards have recently been repaired and re painted, but I will never get around to finishing it myself. Part of the trouble is also that basicly it is the joinery and internal re-fittng that I enjoy, and that has occupied a lot of my time.

 

On top of all that I have been out of action with my little arguement with cancer over the past two years, and now we have Jan's recovery from Brain surgery to get through, so when we can finally get to the boat we would actually prefer to be cruising, rather than working.

 

Last month at Bradford I saw a little dark haired French? lass doing some work on an odd boat with wooden windows at the front and back with a tarpaulin cover bowtop she was working her socks off. If you can hire her to do the prep you may save some money. We will be down to Bradford this weekend if you see us say hello.

[David Schweizer]

Last month at Bradford I saw a little dark haired French? lass doing some work on an odd boat with wooden windows at the front and back with a tarpaulin cover bowtop she was working her socks off. If you can hire her to do the prep you may save some money. We will be down to Bradford this weekend if you see us say hello.

Only problem is that our boat is at Napton Junction, at least four weeks cruising away, but Thanks anyway.

[wake.graphics]

Ever considered having it covered in boat graphics? It should give you additional protection as well as spruce up the way it looks. With the colorful graphics and protective laminate, it is one way of protecting your boat from untimely wear and tear. http://wakegraphics.com

Edited September 20, 2011 by wake.graphics

[deletedaccount]

you can get it done locally. Neil and whatshis name I forgotten do some quality work for a reasonable price. I think they do it near diggers. I'm rubbish with names but neil is on a widebeam. I could forward your details if you like, he's a nice bloke too.

 

eta: oh, the boat's at napton!

[Phil Speight]

Let`s nail this one. Put a mat on a deck or a roof and leave it there for a time. Remove it and admire the micro-blisters that have formed underneath. Snow and ice, left uncleared will do the same. This is not a problem in England, where we have frequent thaws between bouts of snow,unles we have an exceptionally bad winter. We recently had just such a thing.Moisture trapped against the type of paint largely used on canal boats WILL PENETRATE THE SURFACE if it left for too long. This then causes the trapped moisture to form blisters

 

MICRO-BLISTERING

 

In our application there is the potential for two types.

First - Solvent Retention. This occurs when paint has dried too quickly or been applied too heavily. The surface dries before all the solvent has been able to evaporate - and this solvent eventually comes to the surface.

 

Second and much more common.Water or water vapour. Moisture trapped within the paint film during painting - like solvent, needs to evaporate. It also comes to the surface causing blisters. Most painters are extemely diligent in their efforts to avoid this - but no wet dock I know is wholly proof against it. The moisture need not be present when the paint is applied - condensation can form later on the surface before the paint has dried sufficiently to resist it. This can happen at the "dew point" on any given day, or as a result of a sudden change in temperature. Beyond this some primers can take on moisture if left exposed for a long period.

As I have already said water ( or vapour )blisters can also occur when paint has not been able to breathe. That is when trapped rain water, or more particularly condensation has nowhere to go but into the paint surface.Leave planks , ropes,mats, flower tubs and etc on your boat when you leave it and blisters will almost certainly appear eventually. The same applies to layers of snow over ice - something that caused huge problems a couple of winters ago. This is not a sign that modern brushing paints are inadequate in anything but the most extreme and unlikely conditions. If you want to build protection in from the start - varnish the paint with a good, none-polyurethane varnish and accept the maintenance implications. Only in the canal world is there a reluctance to do this. Fairgrounds, railway and traction engines, vintage cars and lorries - all are varnished as a matter of course.

 

To avoid the problem without recourse to varnish leave all the boats surfaces free of clutter when you aren`t boating and keep it clean and cleared of snow/ice and pooling rain ( like on a roof inside the handrails if it doesn`t drain properly. A pain when you live miles away I know - but surely an investment as substantial as a good quality narrow boat with a similarly good quality paint job is worth the effort. Imagine if it was a supercar you were leaving dumped outside in all weathers.(My 40 year old 1750 Alfa isn`t a supercar - but it is a super car. It had to spend last winter outdoor and now it needs remedial work to the paint that is only 4 years old.)

No-one is to blame here other than a very small handful of bad painters who don`t worry about such things ( and ,incidentally,too thin a paint film can greatly increase the likelyhood of blistering. 70 microns, Mr.......of ............Boatbuilders is nowhere near enough.)

The difficulty is that the problem is not widely understood. This causes a a game of "pass the (blame) parcel" which never yields a fair result. I spent a very long time two years ago going into all this - and found the only blame to be be a record bad winter the effects of which were exagerated but not caused by various other factors - often, I`m sorry to say, boat owners blind faith that a steel vehicle left unattended in appalling conditions for weeks at a time will not suffer as a result.

[kitman]

but no wet dock I know is wholly proof against it.

 

Can I add that dry docks are also susceptible. So don't believe that if you painter uses a dry dock, blistering won't happen. Careful monitoring of the atmospheric conditions and steel temp is more important than the type of dock.

[smileypete]

If you want to build protection in from the start - varnish the paint with a good, none-polyurethane varnish and accept the maintenance implications. Only in the canal world is there a reluctance to do this. Fairgrounds, railway and traction engines, vintage cars and lorries - all are varnished as a matter of course.

Seems like blistering mainly occurs between the fairly porous primer/undercoat and less porous top coat.

 

I'd speculate that putting top coat on primer in less than bone dry conditions, or primer that has any moisture in it, weakens the chemical bond between top coat and primer/undercoat or stops the top coat fully curing.

 

When damp mats, snow are left on the paint for long periods, vapour passes through the top coat and accumulates as moisture in the primer/undercoat. Enough moisture buildup causes pressure and the weakly bonded top coat to fail and blister.

 

One way to prevent it I'd expect could be with a tie coat of moisture curing urethane (MCU) primer between the primer/undercoat and top coat. Even better might be to apply the top coat while the MCU primer is tack dry.

 

As MCU primer is moisture tolerant and has very high bond strength, I think it'd be fine when applied in less than perfect conditions, and resist blistering much better.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Phil Speight]

Seems like blistering mainly occurs between the fairly porous primer/undercoat and less porous top coat.

 

I'd speculate that putting top coat on primer in less than bone dry conditions, or primer that has any moisture in it, weakens the chemical bond between top coat and primer/undercoat or stops the top coat fully curing.

 

When damp mats, snow are left on the paint for long periods, vapour passes through the top coat and accumulates as moisture in the primer/undercoat. Enough moisture buildup causes pressure and the weakly bonded top coat to fail and blister.

 

One way to prevent it I'd expect could be with a tie coat of moisture curing urethane (MCU) primer between the primer/undercoat and top coat. Even better might be to apply the top coat while the MCU primer is tack dry.

 

As MCU primer is moisture tolerant and has very high bond strength, I think it'd be fine when applied in less than perfect conditions, and resist blistering much better.

 

cheers,

Pete.

When moisture penetrating the paint film is the cause of blistering I don`t think this would help .Certainly it would prevent deeper penetration ( ooh nurse ) but the damage would stillexist aboe hat level.

[smileypete]

When moisture penetrating the paint film is the cause of blistering I don`t think this would help .Certainly it would prevent deeper penetration ( ooh nurse ) but the damage would stillexist aboe hat level.

Where does microblistering tend to occur? Is it mostly between the topcoat and primer/undercoat?

 

If so I think the above is well worth a trial. What other alternatives are there?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[kitman]

Where does microblistering tend to occur? Is it mostly between the topcoat and primer/undercoat?

Potentially it can occur between any coat, you may not always be able to see moisture on the surface before you paint. Correct heating/ventilation is important through the winter.

 

I've seen blisters formed from the undercoat layer onwards. When the undercoat is sanded down and left over night in the winter with no heating on condensation is absorbed heavily. So, yea, this is not good practice. Anything we sand down is coated same day, summer or winter.

 

Where rubber mats are involved, water permeates the gloss layer to cause blistering, you don't necessarily need moisture to be present in the paint already.

 

Out of interest what is the solvent for MCU, is it water?

[smileypete]

Out of interest what is the solvent for MCU, is it water?

There's an MSDS sheet for an MCU coating here.

 

In this case it's mostly 'naptha' (white spirit?) with a small amount of proper nasties.

 

cheers,

Pete.