Cheapest heating in the long run for liveaboards.

[Robbo]

7 litres at ~90p for red at the moment is £6.30.

 

Half a bag of coal is £4.50.

 

It's hard to do a direct comparison of coal to diesel as coal varies alot in heat per Kg depending on the quality and type of coal. It can be as low as 33% or as high as 60% per Kg compared with diesel, kerosene is slightly better than diesel.

 

Edit to add...

Also remember the efficiency of the stove is also important. The Morso Squirrel Stove is about 71% efficient. I'm sure the Refleks is more, just working it out..

[cereal tiller]

i really cant imagine having a canal live-aboard boat without a stove!

a sf stove may create some dust,but is must be the most versatile heating of all.

when the weather is cool enough to have just a bit of heating on,a stove can be lit with a "small fire" within

i leave the majority of the ash in place,leang only a 4" circle of grating exposed,half a dozen or so briquettes of coal will burn slowly and maintain a pleasant background heat for swveral hours.

 

i have considerable experience in the marine industry,and have installed,and repaired literally hundreds of webasto,eberspacher,and mikuni heaters.

they all have one factor in common,they are expensive to service and repair,and they all GO WRONG!

 

diesel "drip feed stoves ane boilers are o.k.,but they always seem to smell of diesel fuel

 

i have a mikuni hot air system as "boost" heating,this is only ever used when ambient temperatures are well below zero or if the boat is underway and doors are left open whilst operating locks etc.

 

a boating friend describes an sf stove as "caveman t.v."!and i think that lokoing at the flame pattern after one has just got back on board at the end of a cold day,is both relaxing and invigorating.

[nb Innisfree]

The MX60 is a 7Kw beast, it's a tad large even for a wide beam, MX40 would have been suitable and better mainly due to it wouldn't need to be cycled off/on as much.

 

Mikuni recommended MX60 over MX40 for 60' nb, they said it would cope better with full time use and have longer service life.

 

ETA: 7kw does have the advantage of giving a faster warm up and then is happy to tick over efficiently at half output.

 

7 litres at ~90p for red at the moment is £6.30.

 

Half a bag of coal is £4.50.

 

 

Yes but with the recent steep rise in diesel prices I don't think that is a realistic comparison at the moment, when SF prices catch up with diesel, which I think they will eventually, then it it will be a different story. Over the years all fuels fluctuate with relation to each other but balance out in the long run.

Edited April 26, 2011 by nb Innisfree

[mrsmelly]

Although it is probably true that coal packs more energy per pound sterling than other fuels, coal burning stoves are extremely inefficient. Much of the heat goes up the chimney, and a coal stove is always either producing too much heat or too little. There is no satisfactory way to control the output.

 

So, in practice, a diesel or gas heater could well be a cheaper option, and certainly a cleaner and more convenient one.

 

As a liveaboard of many years experience cost does not always come into it, the facts are that multi fuel stoves are massively better than diesel apart from cost diesel develop many faults including blowing out and sooting. I find an easy way to find out the best is to say look on this forum or say ebay for a second hand squirrel for sale being replaced by lets say a bubble stove and you will not find many whereas I know plenty of people who have removed said diesel jobby and put solid fuel stove in. Ask what percentage of boaters have solid fuel and what have diesel or gas ? Its much the same with all electric boats what percentage of those are on the cut ? less than 1 percent at a guess and there has to be a reason.

Ok I was a bit off topic but facts are thant multi fuel stoves are best as are gas cookers there is simply no arguement, remember we had a female prime minister ONCE its the same arguement realy

[nb Innisfree]

Although it is probably true that coal packs more energy per pound sterling than other fuels, coal burning stoves are extremely inefficient. Much of the heat goes up the chimney, and a coal stove is always either producing too much heat or too little. There is no satisfactory way to control the output.

 

So, in practice, a diesel or gas heater could well be a cheaper option, and certainly a cleaner and more convenient one.

 

This also applies to diesel heaters whether drip feed or forced combustion (in the latter case substitute exhaust for chimney)

Edited April 26, 2011 by nb Innisfree

[Robbo]

Mikuni recommended MX60 over MX40 for 60' nb, they said it would cope better with full time use and have longer service life.

 

ETA: 7kw does have the advantage of giving a faster warm up and then is happy to tick over efficiently at half output.

 

To be honest, I think that 7Kw is too high for any narrowboat and widebeam that has good insulation for a pre-heater device. It's better for them to be on for long periods of time, even if only running at half the rate. I think it's better too have two heating methods for the really cold periods if you need more than the "4Kw".

[Roger Gunkel]

I have lived on my 57'x10' widebeam for 7 years, living and working onboard, so spend most of the Winter requiring a comfortable living temperature, which for me is probably 24/7 70-72F. Having gone through the nightmare of an Eberspacher, I would never again contemplate considering a similar boiler for permanent heating. The drip feed heaters are probably considerably more reliable, but I don't know any users around here who are getting diesel costs anywhere near down to real costs of running a SF stove. Manufacturers spec sheets are good for selling heaters, but the actual diesel consumption during real hard winter use is considerably more in my own experience.

 

I agree that diesel stoves are cleaner, but in my experience, the vast majority of liveaboards end up with SF by choice. If you know your stove, it is easy to light and control, is totally dependable and reliable, and in addition to coal, has the ability to burn dead wood and other easy to pick up timber if you should need to. Last Winter we typically burned 2.5 bags of Supertherm per week through the coldest part of the Winter, at £7.50 per 25kg bag. Considerably less consumption of course outside the coldest months.

 

There is of course the added value of permanent hot water from the kettle, stove top cooking and the warm glow of the fire to make it even more attractive. I agree with Mr Smelly that it is the best choice for a permanent liveaboard.

 

Roger

[Nickhlx]

I have lived on my 57'x10' widebeam for 7 years, living and working onboard, so spend most of the Winter requiring a comfortable living temperature, which for me is probably 24/7 70-72F. Having gone through the nightmare of an Eberspacher, I would never again contemplate considering a similar boiler for permanent heating. The drip feed heaters are probably considerably more reliable, but I don't know any users around here who are getting diesel costs anywhere near down to real costs of running a SF stove. Manufacturers spec sheets are good for selling heaters, but the actual diesel consumption during real hard winter use is considerably more in my own experience.

 

I agree that diesel stoves are cleaner, but in my experience, the vast majority of liveaboards end up with SF by choice. If you know your stove, it is easy to light and control, is totally dependable and reliable, and in addition to coal, has the ability to burn dead wood and other easy to pick up timber if you should need to. Last Winter we typically burned 2.5 bags of Supertherm per week through the coldest part of the Winter, at £7.50 per 25kg bag. Considerably less consumption of course outside the coldest months.

 

There is of course the added value of permanent hot water from the kettle, stove top cooking and the warm glow of the fire to make it even more attractive. I agree with Mr Smelly that it is the best choice for a permanent liveaboard.

 

Roger

 

 

I am impressed that you could find coal at £7-50 per 25 Kg bag - the least expensive around here was at least £10 a bag and usually that was a 20 Kg bag, although I only bought 150 Kgs or so at a time... Diesel stoves also have a "hot plate" (Lockgate Refleks) for the kettle and "slow cooker", and are controllable, i.e. "variable heat", depending on the control, in a few minutes.

 

We do have a supply of home heating oil to feed ours with, and that does significantly help with the running costs, as it burns cleaner and costs around ( currently) 53p litre with heating rate tax paid..

 

Nick

[mickspangle]

A few people have mentioned drip feed diesel stoves and that they may not need to be run 24/7. In my experience withs a kabola E5 they don't react very well to being turned on and off all the time and I think he manufacturers advise against it as it leads to the thing sooting up quickly (requiring it to be turned off and cleaned out) and state that they are designed to run continuously.

 

So...probably best to base your costs on continuous running. Having said that it's rare that it goes above its minimum setting on our 70' NB, so 4-5 litres/d is our average use over winter.

[ymu]

I am impressed that you could find coal at £7-50 per 25 Kg bag - the least expensive around here was at least £10 a bag and usually that was a 20 Kg bag, although I only bought 150 Kgs or so at a time... Diesel stoves also have a "hot plate" (Lockgate Refleks) for the kettle and "slow cooker", and are controllable, i.e. "variable heat", depending on the control, in a few minutes.

 

We do have a supply of home heating oil to feed ours with, and that does significantly help with the running costs, as it burns cleaner and costs around ( currently) 53p litre with heating rate tax paid..

 

Nick

Fuel boats. Way cheaper than yards. Harder to find them if you're not a liveaboard and local, but this is handy: http://lock13.co.uk/boats/coaldiesel.htm

[honey ryder]

this is something im having to seriously consider for next winter.

 

I spent a winter hooked up to shore power and using a 2kw electric heater. it warmed the main cabin up ok, but a lot of the time I truggled to get above 5 degrees during the coldest part of winter.

the electricity bill came to around £600 for 6 months. I was using 24 units of electricity a day. I wouldnt say i had it toasty warm in the boat, but it was manageable.

I was planning to add a webasto 5500 heater so that it could run on low power but heat my boat nicely. (its not a narrowboat)

I dont have any option to use anything with a vertical flu, no wall space at all and no floor space. its compact. the webasto can fit in a large locker and work from its own dedicated fuel tank.

so although i know its a compromise, i feel I have little choice. I also need it to be as light weight as possible as weight is a serious issue for me.

 

I can empty the fuel tank in summer and cruise around light, and then fill it up in winter and put up with the extra weight.

 

also, getting a bigger heater, should both heat the area quickly and save on electricity and fuel costs. im powered from wind and solar most of the time.

 

solid fuel is probably one of the best heaters on a narrowboat, but if i went back to living on a narrowboat, i would find something else. i dont know what, but anything else... the dust caused my asthma to be worse than ever. ruined my life during the winter.

so although the fuel was free as I collected wood all the time rarely burning coal, i would rather pay for something cleaner and less allergy causing.

 

Honey Ryder

 

canopy repair? yes I do those. Can I come to you? probably if you live around london or the east.

[Robbo]

also, getting a bigger heater, should both heat the area quickly and save on electricity and fuel costs. im powered from wind and solar most of the time.

 

The pre-heaters like the webasto like to be run hard and not to be cycled, a bigger heater will be mean more cycling which isn't good for these heaters...

[Roger Gunkel]

I am impressed that you could find coal at £7-50 per 25 Kg bag - the least expensive around here was at least £10 a bag and usually that was a 20 Kg bag, although I only bought 150 Kgs or so at a time... Diesel stoves also have a "hot plate" (Lockgate Refleks) for the kettle and "slow cooker", and are controllable, i.e. "variable heat", depending on the control, in a few minutes.

 

Nick

 

There are no coal boats in the Fens here, and I got fed up with paying some of the ridiculous prices being quoted, and the attitude of a number of the suppliers to boaters. So a few years back I contacted one of the main wholesalers who agreed to supply half a dozen of us liveaboards at bulk prices if we paid up front for our whole order. Since then, I shop for the best price each year, buying up front at wholesale Summer rates. I am just in the process of tying up next Winter's prices and there will be 25 of us on the co-operative, including some from this forum. We will be ordering about 1200 25kg bags this Winter. I have also made an arrangement to include a local pub in the group, who store bulk loads for those who can't fit them on their boat or elsewhere.

 

Last year I started buying through Paul Hill, who in addition to his main business also runs coal boats on the GU. He was fantastically helpful and supportive and a genuinely nice guy. He would also be happy to talk to other groups that want to buy bulk supplies. Buying from him at this level, gives him more purchasing power from the manufacturers, keeping his prices lower for everyone.

 

Roger

[ymu]

With no fuel boat, that's sensible, but we'd always use a fuel boat if we could. Much rather pay them more for coal and not have to lug diesel wphn they go out of business. They are great if you regularly use a lot of fuel, and their overheads are likely less than the hidden costs for a co-op in reality.

[David Mack]

this is something im having to seriously consider for next winter.

 

I spent a winter hooked up to shore power and using a 2kw electric heater. it warmed the main cabin up ok, but a lot of the time I truggled to get above 5 degrees during the coldest part of winter.

the electricity bill came to around £600 for 6 months. I was using 24 units of electricity a day. I wouldnt say i had it toasty warm in the boat, but it was manageable.

 

I think you might be better investing in some more insulation. A boat isn't a big space to keep warm and if its costing you that much, most of the heat must be going straight out through the sides and roof.

 

David

[honey ryder]

I think you might be better investing in some more insulation. A boat isn't a big space to keep warm and if its costing you that much, most of the heat must be going straight out through the sides and roof.

 

David

 

oh absolutely, i need insulation, there is non to speak of at the moment.

 

trying to work out what will be the best option for that too.

[Robin2]

oh absolutely, i need insulation, there is non to speak of at the moment.

 

trying to work out what will be the best option for that too.

 

Consider 3M Thinsulate. It is easy to apply although it is not cheap. It's also very good at sound insulation - I put it in my engine bay to great effect.

[WotEver]

Consider 3M Thinsulate. It is easy to apply although it is not cheap. It's also very good at sound insulation - I put it in my engine bay to great effect.

Considering that's what it's designed for, it would be. I'm not so sure about its heat insulation properties though.

 

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/thinsulate-acoustic/acoustic/solutions/transport/marine

 

Tony

 

edit to remove surplus apostrophe

Edited May 24, 2011 by WotEver

[Robin2]

Considering that's what it's designed for, it would be. I'm not so sure about its heat insulation properties though.

 

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/thinsulate-acoustic/acoustic/solutions/transport/marine

 

Tony

 

edit to remove surplus apostrophe

 

As far as I know it is the same stuff that is used for heat insulation in clothing. It certainly feels like an excellent heat insulator.

 

Following is an excerpt from the web page you quoted (my emphasis)

 

Thinsulate Insulation provides exceptional sound absorption and excellent thermal insulation.

 

I got my thinsulate from these people who were very helpful.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Robin2

[WotEver]

As far as I know it is the same stuff that is used for heat insulation in clothing.

I'm pretty sure it is, and because of this it's pretty thin and flexible. Wouldn't 50mm of Kingspan do a better job of insulating NB walls?

 

Tony

[Caprifool]

Almost time to split this into one cheapest heating and one best insulation topic.

[ymu]

Covers front and back make a massive difference to heat retention. Just make sure they're easy to open up properly in the summer!

[Robin2]

I'm pretty sure it is, and because of this it's pretty thin and flexible. Wouldn't 50mm of Kingspan do a better job of insulating NB walls?

 

Tony

 

That's a technical question - I don't have the specs for either product. The 50mm Kingspan would be twice as thick and thus take up more space.

[rlfk]

Squirrel if I've got the wood, webasto if I dont and engine through a calorifier if I'm on the move. Dont worry too much about the cost and find free wood along the towpath as you pass and chuck the sawn logs into a basket on the roof for later.

 

Oh my but a log fire looks ever so warm.

[Nose Miner]

People might be interested to know that I fitted a system on my boat which, in winter, diverts most if not all of the waste engine heat from the skin tank to the radiators. It seemed illogical to me to be putting heat into the canal when the boat was cold. It simply consists of a gate valve which can divert the hot water through the radiator system by closing off the skin tank. In cold weather the two radiators can dump all of the heat from the engine.