Traditionalists, Purists... A Quesion... ?

[Guest wanted]

 

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Edited April 13, 2011 by wanted

[Derek R.]

The OP's verbosity is only matched by his desire to pigeon hole people into categories. Such folk will always have a desire to ask silly questions, as they do not in essence understand the basis of their query - only in that it is designed to 'get at' a group of people who enjoy doing what they do - as aptly shown in the clip from Mike Askin, and of whom they secretly despise/admire/envy/don't understand.

 

There was no 'question' to be answered, just hyperbole for the sake of it.

 

'Anonymous' and 'Bard' - Irony? I see neither.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Derek R.

[cotswoldsman]

I am off to become a Purist

 

 

[Derek R.]

Far too advanced John - just chuck a fallen log in and hang on.

[cotswoldsman]

Far too advanced John - just chuck a fallen log in and hang on.

 

I meant the hat

[Tiny]

Even if you could build a traditional horse boat and get a full trained horse you would not get a born in the trade boatee to run it - just some person who thinks they know what they are doing.

 

Likewise even building hull to 'traditional lines' for motor boats for modern holiday boats might be what people want but not what they need given they will never achieve the handling abilities of boatees who did the job for a living.

[magpie patrick]

Even if you could build a traditional horse boat and get a full trained horse you would not get a born in the trade boatee to run it - just some person who thinks they know what they are doing.

 

Likewise even building hull to 'traditional lines' for motor boats for modern holiday boats might be what people want but not what they need given they will never achieve the handling abilities of boatees who did the job for a living.

 

Yes, and lets add that you will need the right horse. Some boatmen used heavy horses, so get yourself one... oh, a heavy horse now is several hands bigger than 100 years ago and won't fit under the bridges. A vanner will fit though, but they didn't use vanners so that's not authentic...

[Hairy-Neil]

 

Likewise even building hull to 'traditional lines' for motor boats for modern holiday boats might be what people want but not what they need given they will never achieve the handling abilities of boatees who did the job for a living.

 

Never is a long time.....

[carlt]

Yes, and lets add that you will need the right horse. Some boatmen used heavy horses, so get yourself one... oh, a heavy horse now is several hands bigger than 100 years ago and won't fit under the bridges. A vanner will fit though, but they didn't use vanners so that's not authentic...

Would a mule be regarded as a modern upgrade?

[larkshall]

I suppose in the UK context, earliest waterborn freight was rowed around in small boats, and in the case of some rivers windpower. Don't think canals existed here.

[Guest]

Many were not horse drawn but people drawn. Horses were expensive, people were not.

Very true. Mules and donkeys were also used; horses were not always the preferred means of moving unpowered boats.

 

I have been using this forum for some time, and must say this is one of the most pointless original posts I have ever seen on here. Like others, I am unsure what in hell the questions really are.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Guest

[FadeToScarlet]

I think TAB's main point is that we tend to focus mainly on a brief period in the history of canal carrying to the exclusion of earlier times.

 

I think a good deal of this is for practical reasons, because the infrastructure for horse boating- stables, available feed, canal-side blacksmiths- along with the practicalities of owning a horse compared to owning a diesel engine preclude everyone with a wish for authenticity from using one.

 

If you compare canals with preserved railways, they're using steam engines that can move trains full of people, despite the fact that before the invention of the steam engine railways, tramways, mine systems and all the rest used horse and man power. It's not practical to preserve everything, even if a particular method was used for a longer period of time.

 

For the same reasons, there are very few steam narrow boats compared to diesel engines. One President compared to many bollinder and other engined Joshers. Or the amount of preserved motors compared to preserved butties.

 

There are practical limits on what can be preserved.

[sociable_hermit]

If you compare canals with preserved railways, they're using steam engines that can move trains full of people, despite the fact that before the invention of the steam engine railways, tramways, mine systems and all the rest used horse and man power. It's not practical to preserve everything, even if a particular method was used for a longer period of time.

Generally true, although:

 

Horse tram

[carlt]

Generally true, although:

 

Horse tram

The trams are fitted with roller bearings to ease the load on the horses bred to pull them.

 

Roller bearings!!

 

This is heresy. They should be using wooden axles, lubricated with lard.

[mykaskin]

Generally true, although:

 

Horse tram

 

Also on canals:

 

 

Mike

[Proper Job]

Lovely rhythm to that 1hp motor

[dave moore]

Hi all

I've just picked this up and wonder, as a self-confessed traditionalist, whether I should put my head above the parapet.

I too was confused by the original post and remain so. What follows is my personal response.

I got into boats in the early 60s and was fortunate to meet Malcolm Braine shortly afterwards. It was Malcolm and his Josher Cactus who put me on a traditional track, along with an early reading of Narrowboat by LTC Rolt. Most of my early boating experiences were with ex working craft and I was lucky enough to meet some real boaters whilst helping out at Birmingham and Midland Canal Carrying Co shortly after their inception. This all helped a young lad to put down roots in things traditional and I remain fascinated to this day, despite many years of working in the industry as a boat signwriter and decorator.

I felt a kinship of some kind with the values espoused by Rolt in Narrowboat, tho' with hindsight I think he idealised the lives of the working boaters a little, and I've little time for those who romanticise what I do.....a day on the knees lettering, or contorted in a back cabin would soon put paid to that......but I remain committed to preserving what's left of the old days and ways on my own boat, tho' she's a modern reworking of FMC lines sans rivets etc, but with a feel for the past. The brass, lace plates, water cans etc are an integral part of boating for me personally, in that they were there from long ago now. Certainly I'm fiercely proud of a beautiful boat and strive to keep her in a good condition. She attracts much positive comment but those I cherish most have come from handful of ex working boaters and other traditionally minded enthusiasts.

Simply....for me....these traditions are still important. After all, I now earn a living continuing a tradition of hand painted work which could have died out when commercial boating finished, and which can be imitated (badly IMHO) by modern vinyl technology.

I suspect that this may make little sense to some forum members....sorry.

Dave

[carlt]

Hi all

I've just picked this up and wonder, as a self-confessed traditionalist, whether I should put my head above the parapet.

 

Simply....for me....these traditions are still important. After all, I now earn a living continuing a tradition of hand painted work which could have died out when commercial boating finished, and which can be imitated (badly IMHO) by modern vinyl technology.

I suspect that this may make little sense to some forum members....sorry.

Dave

Yeah...but no horse! <sneery smiley>

[Hairy-Neil]

 

If you compare canals with preserved railways, they're using steam engines that can move trains full of people, despite the fact that before the invention of the steam engine railways, tramways, mine systems and all the rest used horse and man power. It's not practical to preserve everything, even if a particular method was used for a longer period of time.

 

 

Railway preservation has the same issues. The majority of enthusiasts seem to want to see everything preserved with its BR numbers and livery from the 1950s - 1960s.

[FadeToScarlet]

Railway preservation has the same issues. The majority of enthusiasts seem to want to see everything preserved with its BR numbers and livery from the 1950s - 1960s.

 

Because that's what Grandad remembers from his youth.

[sociable_hermit]

Railway preservation has the same issues. The majority of enthusiasts seem to want to see everything preserved with its BR numbers and livery from the 1950s - 1960s.

Not strictly true. The majority of photographers want locos painted BR black, but they don't tend to contribute much time to actually fixing them, so they don't always get their way.

 

I remember the old Works Manager at the Bluebell complaining bitterly that "We could jack the whistle up, and replace everything beneath it, and all Steam Beano would be interested in is what bloody colour the loco will be when it's finished".

 

Legend has it that during the restoration of no.672 Fenchurch, a group of armchair experts saw fit to question the rather stern looking beardy chap painting the wheels, because he was painting them brown. "Why are you painting it that colour? It never carried Marsh umber!".

 

"Well," he said, "....because I'm the one holding the brush."

 

That holds true for historic boats, too.

[Hairy-Neil]

 

"Well," he said, "....because I'm the one holding the brush."

 

That holds true for historic boats, too.

 

How true.....

[Derek R.]

I have the remains of a rusted exhaust clamp that fell off the car two days ago - it's the 'original' - what price am I bid?

 

For a 'purist', and as it is no longer restorable, it could be set in a case. A piece of original 1997 Ford for the Grandchildren to cherish.

 

I wonder if this fellow would crave his original fireplace:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/recoveringscot/3763237571/in/set-72157621655925421/

 

With great respect to the formidable album of Doveson2008.

[MtB]

Lovely rhythm to that 1hp motor

 

Indeed. The thing that puzzles me about the 1HP boats is what their performance is like in reverse. I.e. how they stop? Presumably the only brakes they have are the rudder pushed over at 90 degrees. Thinking about it, I'd imagine this will probably bring a boat to a near stop from 3mph in about a boat length but require a lot of effort from the steerer. Or maybe just seer at the bank.

 

I suppose most reasons for stopping are pretty obvious well in advance with a horse boat though.

 

TO address the OP's original point though, at the time of building most canals were regarded as a carbuncle on the landscape AIUI. Pretty much as motorways are seen now by the conservationists. Plenty of examples of alterations to the route plans being demanded by wealthy and powerful people who did not want them to be able to see them from their country houses.

 

For true historical accuracy all canals should be filled in and the land returned to agriculture. Likewise all locks and weirs should be removed from the navigable rivers so they can return to their original and historically correct state.

 

Obvious innit.

[RLWP]

<snip>

For true historical accuracy all canals should be filled in and the land returned to agriculture. Likewise all locks and weirs should be removed from the navigable rivers so they can return to their original and historically correct state.

 

Obvious innit.

 

I disagree. Agriculture has been a huge blot on the primeval beauty of this land, all traces should be removed immediately!

 

Richard