Traditionalists, Purists... A Quesion... ?

[magpie patrick]

At the risk of coming across all po-faced and serious, would it be fair to paraphrase the OP question as "why does so much effort go into preserving boats that were only used in anger for about the last 30 years of narrow boat trading, when canals got by the first 150 plus years with horsedrawn boats?"

 

I often get blank looks when I tell people the Somerset Coal Canal never saw a motorised boat, even though it traded for 93 years

 

So go on, why (and yes, I do have quite a good idea)

[Chertsey]

If that is the question (and I have my doubts), then at least part of the answer must be that all these really 'traditional' boats were wooden, and few survive, compared to the relatively large numbers of steel boats that are still around, and which did not start life as anything other than motor boats or motor-drawn butties. It would look bloody silly, and not be at all traditional, if I were to start trying to haul Chertsey around with a horse.

 

Frankly, I think the OP was either having a very off day, or his identity has been hijacked, because he's always seemed reasonably sensible in the past.

[Derek R.]

Why do we preserve anything?

Surely it is simply because we like the look of them;

they remind us of our childhood or former years;

they are distinctly different from something contemporary;

they are an acknowledgment and salute to those who worked them/used them in a previous time;

they are enjoyable - both in the restoring or renovating, and in the use of;

and if done more or less properly - educational to newer generations who would never have seen such craft/vehicles in use (in any way) before.

 

There is also the social factor, wherein much piss taking about the wrong type of rivet/tiller pin/'Z' bar/fore-hatch lid/hinge/'T' stud/port hole/pigeon box, can cause much merryment. Not forgetting silly songs and Beer.

[Guest]

I've come a bit late to this but to me boating is boating, boat in what ever you want.

 

We have been out again this week and and as ever seen some Clonecraft* narowboats like ours , GRP boats, traditional narrowboats, Washer Joshers, tatty boats, very tatty boats with logs and loads of other stuff on the roof, smart boats and some very nice shiny smart boats.

 

Just go boating.

 

* © Carlt enterprises.

[NB Alnwick]

At the risk of coming across all po-faced and serious, would it be fair to paraphrase the OP question as "why does so much effort go into preserving boats that were only used in anger for about the last 30 years of narrow boat trading, when canals got by the first 150 plus years with horsedrawn boats?"

 

I often get blank looks when I tell people the Somerset Coal Canal never saw a motorised boat, even though it traded for 93 years

 

So go on, why (and yes, I do have quite a good idea)

 

When I was young (a long time ago) I had a number of dreams or ambitions. more than 50 years later I have achieved all but one of them - the odd one out was my plan to live on a horse drawn narrow boat and cruise the canals of England and Wales. I even exchanged correspondence with British waterways in 1967 and 1968 and they sent me a list of suitable boats that would shortly be disposed of via their tender system - all unpowered and many with guide prices of between £30 and £70. They also advised me that using a horse was unlikely to be a practical proposition because (at that time) towing paths were not being maintained in a condition suitable for their original purpose. This was certainly true of the Oxford canal south of Rugby where I lived in those days! It was even suggested that using a horse on the canals in the conditions then prevailing might be seen as unkind to the animal and attract attention from organisations concerned with animal welfare.

 

So the whole idea was shelved and I pursued my other ambitions which included racing cars, working for a Brewery and running a steam railway . . .

Edited April 15, 2011 by NB Alnwick

[carlt]

"why does so much effort go into preserving boats that were only used in anger for about the last 30 years of narrow boat trading, when canals got by the first 150 plus years with horsedrawn boats?"

 

So go on, why (and yes, I do have quite a good idea)

Because nearly all the horse boats were gone, before people bothered about preserving such stuff.

[Chertsey]

Why do we preserve anything?

Surely it is simply because we like the look of them;

they remind us of our childhood or former years;

they are distinctly different from something contemporary;

they are an acknowledgment and salute to those who worked them/used them in a previous time;

they are enjoyable - both in the restoring or renovating, and in the use of;

and if done more or less properly - educational to newer generations who would never have seen such craft/vehicles in use (in any way) before.

 

There is also the social factor, wherein much piss taking about the wrong type of rivet/tiller pin/'Z' bar/fore-hatch lid/hinge/'T' stud/port hole/pigeon box, can cause much merryment. Not forgetting silly songs and Beer.

And because we just fell in love with them.

[Laurence Hogg]

The horse boat conversions were trials and experiments of steam boats, later followed by the motor boat tests, and before the steady motor-butty arrangement. Most ended up on the scrap heap as a bad job anyway though. By the time everyone had got to grips of the idea of a motor boat, it was New Toy Syndrome with the companies who rushed off to the builders to get in on the act

On this answer I beg to differ. Most horse boat conversions were very sucessful, the Anderton company converted many horse boats to motors, so did Nursers, in the North Simpson Davies produced a most unique conversion of a horse boat which traded right to the end of carrying. The fact that everyone misses about horse boats or towed boats is that there is little to no wash because the prime mover is on the towpath and the tonnage carried can be higher. All early experiments will produce bad designs and failures but the shape of a horse boat when adapted to a motor produces a very nice swim unlike what many buiilders make today.

[Laurence Hogg]

I am a professional enthusiast - where does that fit in? We are few in number but do exist. I do not consider I am a purist by a long shot.

I consider hardly anyone to be a purist if historical accuracy is involved. Take "Raymond" and "Saturn", how "pure are those?? The Saturn lot lost two original flyboats in the process which evolved into building a new one which isnt as they claim 100 years old! "Raymond" again is the same, not even restored to look the same as a Nurser, that should be "Raymond 2" in my opinion. Who is going to restore a GU motor to two tone blue livery and have a boatmans cabin "as delivered" painted battleship grey on the interior with no roses and castles? Maybe the term could be applied to those who still use boats for trade purposes and work the canal in some way using the boat as a tool of a trade. As for those who buy "trads" and have twee back cabins that no family could have lived in properly then a new term might need to be invented. Take a look at Waterways world this month page 63 and ask yourself "how safe is that stove" - complete with lace plates and lace directly behind and if not touching the stove pipe of an epping! Oh and theres the oil lamp nearby for comfort...

[mykaskin]

As for those who buy "trads" and have twee back cabins that no family could have lived in properly then a new term might need to be invented. Take a look at Waterways world this month page 63 and ask yourself "how safe is that stove" - complete with lace plates and lace directly behind and if not touching the stove pipe of an epping! Oh and theres the oil lamp nearby for comfort...

 

Not sure what you are trying to say here? That the plates shouldn't be there, or the lace? Oil lamps were common where they not?

 

Mike

[Laurence Hogg]

Not sure what you are trying to say here? That the plates shouldn't be there, or the lace? Oil lamps were common where they not?

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

In all the pictures I have of original boatmans cabins and personal experience I have never seen a ribbon plate placed so close to the stovepipe as it is touching, some cabins show plates there but often the pipe has a surround piece on it which I suppose acted as a heat sheield. We all know how hot these can get and certainly they get hot enough to burn fabric. I have seen polished brass or copper sheet behind a pipe too.

It just seemed a strange picture to show when trying to bring home stove safety to the reader.

The oil lamp sits there very close to a burning stove containing around a quarter pint of paraffin, people in the old days appreciated lamps for what they are nowadays knowledge of lamps, wick trimming and the like is scant. When we (Boatmans Cabin) produced these they were a constant worry as fitters fitted them in some cases directly over the stove which wasnt very safe!! The one in WW looks like one of the BCC lamps.

[Hairy-Neil]

Or... had a five am start the following morning in build up to a couple of weeks off.

 

What's all this troll business anyway, have some people been watching too much Merlin?

 

There, that should do it... should be good for another five pages to read up on when I get back, have fun!

 

Noooo.........

 

Don't go away

 

All of the billygoat gruff's will be able to leg it over the bridge

 

[alan_fincher]

Frankly, I think the OP was either having a very off day, or his identity has been hijacked, because he's always seemed reasonably sensible in the past.

Other than that he does seem to Steve Hudson boats as some kind of super-boat that other boats can at best only aspire to be like ?

 

(With apologies to some of the very nice, and very sensible, people on the forum who own and are very happy with SMH boats......)

[onionbargee]

Boaters who have to have everything just like pictures in the history book they've read are just anally retentive boat pests, i can't stand them. Just relax for %£&*+ sake !

[carlt]

Boaters who have to have everything just like pictures in the history book they've read are just anally retentive boat pests, i can't stand them. Just relax for %£&*+ sake !

I'm not sure it's them that should relax...after all they are probably not nearly as bothered about your boating habits, as you seem to be about theirs.

[Derek R.]

I can't comment on Page 63 of Waterways World as I do not have a copy, but I feel sure if plates were hung near the flue pipe, they would have been placed so as to not touch and be broken by movement, not likely to have any ribbon in them - folk were more sensible back then (mostly).

 

Oil lamps. Scant knowledge? Many have scant knowledge of canals, but no scant knowledge of oil lamps with these folk: HERE and HERE.

 

Paraffin in close proximity to a naked flame is the norm with both pressure stoves and lamps, and wick stoves and lamps. The venting of air and paraffin vapour is in no way about to ignite as would petrol vapour. Spillage of fuel is extremely unlikely, more danger from CANDLES. Most who do have scant knowledge of oil lamps, are those who drill holes in them and electrocute them - Grrrrr!

 

Thinking of a new Pub name. How about 'The Bard and Bargee' (Onion).

 

Love the

scene! Edited April 16, 2011 by NB Alnwick

[andywatson]

Well it looks like I'm guilty - although I don't care.

Not many hobbies are justifiable in the cold light of day.

I play a sax (badly) when I could put on a CD and make stuff that I could buy ready made.

 

I like back cabins for being very practical as well as traditional and homely.

Vintage diesel engines sound and smell nice and are reasonably cheap to run (unlike a horse).

My boat currently in build will be a loose replica of an old boat. It won't be a slavish copy as some compromises have been made for the sake of practicality and domestic harmony.

- Glennys (Mrs W) won't let me have a proper old boat or "hairy chested" tug like Regent.

 

I think possibly the OP had his tongue in his cheek but misjudged the likely response.

The topic is certainly inconsistent with being chairman of the Hudson fan club.

Edited April 16, 2011 by andywatson

[Derek R.]

Hudson - had to look them up. Quite smart. I'm reminded of contemporary copies of a Deusenberg, or 1930's supercharged Mercedes, monstrously expensive, fantastic to look at and possibly very well built - but something missing. Are boats capable of having a soul? Is that what draws people to old decrepit lumps of floating (or maybe not) rust and rot? Perhaps that's it - we see a likeness of soul - getting old and decrepit, let's do it together. A sort of 'help one another' romance.

 

"Weigh the tarp with shot, knock out the bungs and cast me adrift in the deep - together we sleep, the long sleep.

No wind in our sails, no foam at the bow, Sea-bed and sediment our pillow and coverlet."

 

Edited to add

 

Speaking of restoration and why; this may seem a little different, but some of the feeling for discovery, effort, assistance and ultimately satisfaction can surely be seen here. This link shows a Blanchard pressure lamp found in as seen condition, through to the end result. Scroll down the page for all the images (and comments).

http://www.classicpressurelamps.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/2164/fbb_session_id/cb417d92016223b52dbc66f47a1cae12/

Edited April 17, 2011 by Derek R.

[Chertsey]

... Who is going to restore a GU motor to two tone blue livery and have a boatmans cabin "as delivered" painted battleship grey on the interior with no roses and castles? ...

Now that's an idea... I quite like the austere look.

[Timleech]

... Who is going to restore a GU motor to two tone blue livery and have a boatmans cabin "as delivered" painted battleship grey on the interior with no roses and castles? ...

 

 

Now that's an idea... I quite like the austere look.

 

Don't forget there's the CERES, which is in its authentic very plain Bridgewater Department grey. Not sure about the interior of the back cabin, but I can't imagine it's flashy.

 

It's nice to see at least one which is smart without being 'done up to the nines'

 

Tim

[The Anonymous Bard]

Well… back after a break and nice to see that the thread did eventually turn up some constructive comments and lose the mythical troll conspiracy theory eventually.

 

To put the record straight the question was originally asked because I was judging myself to be somewhat hypocritical in preferring a certain style of boat which I viewed as traditional until I then questioned the purity of it, and as the OED does not define the word “traditional” to anything that relates to a certain era in time I can only come to the (now glaringly obvious) conclusion that traditional and purity should be defined as two completely different things and attempting to relate the two is heading for trouble, even though I still feel that there is an element of convenience to MY own choice and my feelings about it.

 

Yes the question was deliberately phrased in a provocative manner and I don’t want to trawl through multi-quoting and getting into debates about minor points but what amazed me afterwards was that you could ask the question on a face to face basis along the cut or over a pint and there seemed to be no problem comprehending the question despite the varying responses which came back.

 

Yet… ask the question within CWDF and the whole place seems to go into meltdown?

 

Not a criticism to be taken personally by anyone, just some opinion based observations.

 

The path initially seemed to range from the “can’t comprehend, won’t comprehend, don’t want to comprehend” to suggestions that a person should be qualified in some way (?) to even ask a question… it was suggested that there were no people like that (referring to descriptive in OP) here but only enthusiasts even though it was never implied that there were, and then the witch hunt was on where all and sundry then follow in their usual style of backing whichever direction the hunt is going despite weighing in little of any constructive or objective worth.

 

Thanks to those that did think it through and offered some constructive/objective comment and for the chancers & chasers I will be erecting a ducking stool shortly after midnight on the next full moon for anyone wanting to get it out of their system… no duckings to last longer than twenty seconds, flame torches to be provided and all proceeds going towards a good cause

 

Lastly, as for stating that I seem to think that Steve Hudson makes some sort of super boat which other builders can only aspire to I think that the said person should quote that or otherwise stop spouting complete, utter rubbish and emerge from their own sarcasm… it is nothing more than a style of boat which we like and are very enthusiastic about... we currently spend the vast majority of our time aboard a 40' Liverpool Boats cruiser stern which we think the world of and have just as much enjoyment yet we simply admire his work.

 

Is that ok with you Alan... should our thoughts and tastes be more in keeping with your own?

[Derek R.]

Face to face over a Pint? I think the landlord might have something to say after his pub emptied sharpish.

[The Anonymous Bard]

Sorry but that always happens after the second bag of pork scratchings

 

 

 

Re-edited to add: Sorry but really can't be ar$ed!

Edited May 24, 2011 by The Anonymous Bard