Ramming the lockgates?

[NigelJ]

Went through the Middlewich flight (3 locks), Trent & Mersey, on Saturday and the bottom gates of the top lock wouldn't close. That is, they closed at the gate-top but not at the bottom, as though bent at an angle, and I could only force them sufficiently tight to each other to fill the lock, by letting water in at the top first. Water still gushing out at the bottom like a really bad leak. I reckon the bottom hinge on at least one gate has been twisted. How? Has someone barged at the gates of the empty lock instead of getting out and opening them by hand?

 

I've seen it done. So might you. Impatience, laziness, 'know it all' (!), couldn't-care-less ... whatever. I've told BW but it's a real pain for them .. and us. More unnecessary expense and working time (BW just finished 6-weeks of work on that flight before Christmas).

 

It's not wimpish to handle the lock gear carefully, is it? There are other ways of being macho (if that's what they want) that don't cause damage and cost.

 

PS .. sorry, monitor, I 've put this in wrong section by mistake. Please transfer it to General Chat or where it fits best. Thanks.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2011 by NigelJ

[Hairy-Neil]

It's far more likely to be rubbish between the cill and the gates.....

[Guest]

Only ever seen one 'boater' ram open the lock gates with the boat (and I mean ram not nudge them open) - it was on the L&L while we were on holiday in 2003 (our first time on a canal boat) - even as a complete novice I knew it was a bad thing to do (certainly hitting them that hard).

 

The sound was quite shocking - If I knew then what I know now I would have ran back to the lock to get his picture, his boats picture and number and reported the lazy so an so to BW.

 

(We had enough witnesses - there was six of us on the boat at the time).

 

Thankfully never seen a repeat since.

Edited January 11, 2011 by MJG

[Chertsey]

Opening the gates of an empty lock with the boat wouldn't damage the hinge (isn't there a more technical term for that?) and wouldn't require ramming. It might arguably cause wear to the outside edges of the gates though leading over time to leaks and might not be recommended for that reason.

 

Perhaps a boat coming up got something caught under the gate and lifted it out?

 

Ed. to add I have rammed lock gates by accident and having had the experience I don't think anyone would do it from choice!

Edited January 11, 2011 by Chertsey

[NigelJ]

I guess the lock might not have been quite empty. A few inches up would require some force to ram the gates open. I read recently that old working boaters sometimes rammed the gates with the water level inside 2-feet up! Possible??

Opening the gates of an empty lock with the boat wouldn't damage the hinge (isn't there a more technical term for that?) and wouldn't require ramming. It might arguably cause wear to the outside edges of the gates though leading over time to leaks and might not be recommended for that reason.

 

Perhaps a boat coming up got something caught under the gate and lifted it out?

 

Ed. to add I have rammed lock gates by accident and having had the experience I don't think anyone would do it from choice!

[Guest]

Ed. to add I have rammed lock gates by accident and having had the experience I don't think anyone would do it from choice!

 

I have to say the incident I witnessed the boater definitively rammed the gates open and it was deliberate and by choice - thankfully the only time I've seen it done.

[RLWP]

Went through the Middlewich flight (3 locks), Trent & Mersey, on Saturday and the bottom gates of the top lock wouldn't close. That is, they closed at the gate-top but not at the bottom, as though bent at an angle, and I could only force them sufficiently tight to each other to fill the lock, by letting water in at the top first. Water still gushing out at the bottom like a really bad leak. I reckon the bottom hinge on at least one gate has been twisted. How? Has someone barged at the gates of the empty lock instead of getting out and opening them by hand?

 

I've seen it done. So might you. Impatience, laziness, 'know it all' (!), couldn't-care-less ... whatever. I've told BW but it's a real pain for them .. and us. More unnecessary expense and working time (BW just finished 6-weeks of work on that flight before Christmas).

 

It's not wimpish to handle the lock gear carefully, is it? There are other ways of being macho (if that's what they want) that don't cause damage and cost.

 

PS .. sorry, monitor, I 've put this in wrong section by mistake. Please transfer it to General Chat or where it fits best. Thanks.

 

There is no bottom hinge as such. The gate stands on a short, fat "spike" (pintle IIRC) which is held in a socket in the gate bottom

 

As Neil said earlier, there was probably something between the gate and the cill. You can generally hook mysterious objects out of the step with a boathook

 

Richard

[Chertsey]

I guess the lock might not have been quite empty. A few inches up would require some force to ram the gates open. I read recently that old working boaters sometimes rammed the gates with the water level inside 2-feet up! Possible??

Easier perhaps with twenty tons on and no worries about things falling on the floor!

 

I have to say the incident I witnessed the boater definitively rammed the gates open and it was deliberate and by choice - thankfully the only time I've seen it done.

Was the lock empty?

 

There is no bottom hinge as such. The gate stands on a short, fat "spike" (pintle IIRC) which is held in a socket in the gate bottom

 

 

Pintle! That's the fellow.

[DHutch]

As Neil said earlier, there was probably something between the gate and the cill. You can generally hook mysterious objects out of the step with a boathook

Yeah, i too would say the most likely explanation is something sitting on the cill or between the gates.

 

Crashing into a gate with 2foot the wrong side isnt going to do anything any favours, but nudging 2inchs wouldnt do that sort of damage, as said, the damage that does (to bottom gates) is wearing the mitre and creating a leak. Not really an issue on single top gate, common place on any wide lock.

 

 

Daniel

[mykaskin]

I guess the lock might not have been quite empty. A few inches up would require some force to ram the gates open. I read recently that old working boaters sometimes rammed the gates with the water level inside 2-feet up! Possible??

 

I accidentally hit the bottom gates from below on a narrow lock (2nd down at Atherstone) thanks to rubbish around the prop. The bottom gates where pushed open a couple of inches before the water pressure pushed them closed again onto the stem post of my boat which then held them open. As someone was coming down the top lock, I had to explain the only way anyone was going anywhere was to let the lock empty so I could get the bow untrapped!

 

I only had a couple of ton on at the time, so it doesn't take much weight to push gates about. No obvious damage was done to the gates, though if you believe BW they say each time someone hits or slams the gates it takes 5? years off their life.

 

Oh, and about the OP, I think you had something on the cill. A regular occurance on the canal system, and something you have to learn to deal with.

 

Mike

Edited January 11, 2011 by mykaskin

[Guest User]

Read Daftmare's post on what can happen when a lockgate is rammed ... http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31876&view=findpost&p=562466 admittedly the NT's locks on the Wey are not regarded to be quite as sturdy as BW's elsewhere, but scary stuff nonetheless

[zenataomm]

I've rammed gates by accident. Fouled prop at the last moment/eager to help boater whipping up paddles before I was ready/a moment's loss of concentration. I'd never do it intentionally but it'd be easy to do.

 

Unless I actually saw somebody deliberatly do it I'd probably assume they were caught unawares.

 

I remember a hire boat on the Lee a fair few years back losing the reverse cable on his controls so the further back he pushed the lever the more power he gave it in forward, he ended up reversing the gates. That must have been scary.

Even the famous Ike Argent powered a pair through the gates of the lock above where he ended up living on the Erewash, there should be some photos around.

 

As much as we try to avoid them, mistakes do happen

Edited January 11, 2011 by zenataomm

[Guest]

Was the lock empty?

 

It was indeed - and the gates to be fair were partially open from memory (this was a few years ago remember) - but what struck me was the sound of the engine as he approached the lock as he definitely sped up just as he passed us and struck the gates which 'shimmied and vibrated' (best words I can think of) as he hit extremely hard.

 

I could have understood it almost (not that I would attempt it) if he had 'nosed' the gates open with his bow but no this was a full on ram. If he was attempting to nose them and misjudged it completely - either way it didn't look right to me.

 

He looked as though he was single handing (I don’t recall anybody else on board) and it was getting dark so he was I guess in a rush….

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

We managed to ram the bottom gates surprisingly hard on the Stratford last year.

 

Nosed gently towards the bottom gates and stopped a few feet away to wait while the lock was emptied. that lock has a bridge over the gate, so the entrance is a narrow channel. Suddenly the boat surges forward with the water coming out of the lock, and rams the gates before we could think of going into reverse.

 

Don't wait quite so close to the bottom gates until the lock is nearly empty now

 

Sue

[RLWP]

Sue doesn't wait quite so close to the gates. I put the button fender up against them and wait

 

Richard

 

I'm a rufty-tufty kind of boater

[mykaskin]

Don't wait quite so close to the bottom gates until the lock is nearly empty now

 

Sue

 

The trick is to ensure the bow is against the gates before emptying. It may require forward gear to ensure the boat remains on the bow before the water flow starts running, but then you can take the boat out of gear then as the water flow will hold you there.

 

Mike

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

Having though about it again, I think you are right, we were coming to the gates, and hadn't reached them when the lock started emptying.

 

And I'm not actually convinced I was driving at the time, seemed to remember viewing her hitting the gates from the lock side.

 

So the lesson is wait a long way back, or nose up right to the gates before the lock starts to empty.

 

Sue

[RLWP]

Having though about it again, I think you are right, we were coming to the gates, and hadn't reached them when the lock started emptying.

 

And I'm not actually convinced I was driving at the time, seemed to remember viewing her hitting the gates from the lock side.

 

So the lesson is wait a long way back, or nose up right to the gates before the lock starts to empty.

 

Sue

 

It was me

 

Richard

[Keeping Up]

I've heard many tales of working boatmen taking Fenny Stratford lock without stopping, by ramming the gates (including some who "got it wrong" and ended up with a butty stuck between the gates)

[Nine of Hearts]

I've heard many tales of working boatmen taking Fenny Stratford lock without stopping, by ramming the gates (including some who "got it wrong" and ended up with a butty stuck between the gates)

 

Thus making it a jam(med) butty.

 

It's ok, I'm going...

[mayalld]

Went through the Middlewich flight (3 locks), Trent & Mersey, on Saturday and the bottom gates of the top lock wouldn't close. That is, they closed at the gate-top but not at the bottom, as though bent at an angle, and I could only force them sufficiently tight to each other to fill the lock, by letting water in at the top first. Water still gushing out at the bottom like a really bad leak. I reckon the bottom hinge on at least one gate has been twisted. How? Has someone barged at the gates of the empty lock instead of getting out and opening them by hand?

 

I've seen it done. So might you. Impatience, laziness, 'know it all' (!), couldn't-care-less ... whatever. I've told BW but it's a real pain for them .. and us. More unnecessary expense and working time (BW just finished 6-weeks of work on that flight before Christmas).

 

It's not wimpish to handle the lock gear carefully, is it? There are other ways of being macho (if that's what they want) that don't cause damage and cost.

 

PS .. sorry, monitor, I 've put this in wrong section by mistake. Please transfer it to General Chat or where it fits best. Thanks.

 

 

 

The problem with this post is that the symptoms that you describe don't actually point to the cause you describe.

 

Lock gates don't have a hinge that can bend, and what you describe sounds like an object that has fallen into the lock and is preventing the gate from sealing against the cill

[magpie patrick]

It is possible the gate had twisted, from memory Middlewich Three have composite gates, which most peiople would call steel gates as they are steel except for the heel post and the mitre post. The metal bit can (and does) sometimes bend, which is why BW don't use them so much anymore

 

However, debris on cill is more likely

[Strads]

Ummh, Been on a boat (70ft with a kelvin k2) which hit the lock gate in Cropredy at power,,

 

Colin (his boat) decided he'd steer home after the cropredy bash as I'd steered down, accordingly as he lined up, he went to engage reverse to "kill" the speed and slightly increased revs to make the braking effect..

 

only the gear box cones siezed at this point (new experince for all!!) and accordingly the boat accelerated into the locks with a fairly heavy crash, but other than loudish thump, we could see no damage to either lock gate or boat, but the crowd must have wondered what the F@ck we were upto,,, tadge awkward to go round and explain to the many on-lookers that we wernt stupid but had had a technical issue...

 

rest of the trip we'd coast up to a distance before the lock - kill the engine, coast in, stopped her with lines, set the locks. man handled the boat in with lines and startd the boat in forward gear still and carried on homeward...

 

we were knackered, but didnt hold any one up as such...

 

and fixed the boat a few weekends later when we split the prop and gave the end flange a good few belts with a mallet..

 

that sorted it out for the next 18 months until colin sold her...

 

the engine noise was glorious, has made me want a K series beasty ever since,,, still hanker for a k3,,,

[DHutch]

I've rammed gates by accident....

I dont think anyone has not.

 

I clocked the bottomgates of Grindley Brook going up last year, came round the corner a turn of speed on and pulled for reverse only to find it jammed (an empty waste oil tin had got into the linkage) and planted into it with about a foot of water and a boat in lock traping the bow fender in.

 

Lock keeper wasnt overly impressed but there was little else i could do once i had got into the possition of not being able to stop as fast as we usally can, no noticable damage done, and by the time we made the second rise we where all freinds again. Obviously with hinds sight slower into the bend would have helped but I remembered to lock being a bit futher of the bend and ulitmatly, as the saying goes, shit happens.

 

 

Daniel

[blodger]

I thought working boatmen with loaded boats used the bow wave to open the bottom gates when going up when they knew the lock was mt. I've seen some videos of it.

 

I try top have the boat more or less stopped as the fender nudges the gates then slip in with slow ahead. Takes some courage to do otherwise; a shallow leisure boat does not create the right bow wave, etc