Thinking of Moving to France in 2012

[Robyn]

Hi all,

 

We are thinking of moving to France in 2012 with our 58ft narrowboat, we have no idea what is involved with this, so wondered if anyone has done a couple of years in France recently and could give us a heads up with good transport companies to ship our narrowboat and the costs, what licences we need, whether you need a seperate licence for trade as you do here, or even if you can be a canal trader! Best areas and worst areas.

 

We are looking at a few blogs from people but there's a ,lot to go through to find out the basics and google isn't much help so any friendly advice would be much appreciated.

 

Many thanks

 

Will

[Guest]

Hi all,

 

We are thinking of moving to France in 2012 with our 58ft narrowboat, we have no idea what is involved with this, so wondered if anyone has done a couple of years in France recently and could give us a heads up with good transport companies to ship our narrowboat and the costs, what licences we need, whether you need a seperate licence for trade as you do here, or even if you can be a canal trader! Best areas and worst areas.

 

We are looking at a few blogs from people but there's a ,lot to go through to find out the basics and google isn't much help so any friendly advice would be much appreciated.

 

Many thanks

 

Will

 

Only advice I can offer-

 

- It's a great idea we aspire to do the same at some point.

 

- Do not contemplate sailing your NB over the channel to get there - craning/trucking/ferrying companies will do it for you at a cost but you and your boat will get there. Extreme narrowboaters have tried it and succeeded, of course, most of us are not 'extreme'

[MoominPapa]

Linky is straight from the horses mouth and a jolly good read to boot.

 

MP.

[Robyn]

Hi

 

Thanks for the reply, there is no way we would ever contemplate taking her over the channel ourselves, we're not that brave and besides I don't think our boat would make it...

 

We're going to work hard and save hard in 2011 to try and get enough together to last whilst we're over there just in case we can't work on the canals and only have our websites to earn money.

 

It gives us over a year to plot and plan so with some research and hopefully some hints and tips off here we'll be all set for a good experience. When are you thinking of going?

 

Linky is straight from the horses mouth and a jolly good read to boot.

 

MP.

 

 

oooh thank you MP we'll have a good read of that tomorrow and see if we can get a France plan set...

Edited December 29, 2010 by Robyn

[soldthehouse]

Linky is straight from the horses mouth and a jolly good read to boot.

 

MP.

Tremendous link!!

[alan_fincher]

I think for balance you need to do a forum search for posts by Tam and Di Murrell on this topic.

 

The Murrells had a huge experience of commercial canal boating in the UK, but now run courses on barge handling on the French waterways. They certainly know narrow boats, and certainly know the continental waterways.

 

Without seeking out the posts myself, I remember they relate quite vividly why the standard UK narrow boat is not the best weapon of choice on some of the continental waterways where very large commercial vessels are still a large part of the picture.

 

Of course if you intend to stick mainly to the smaller waterways it would be less of an issue, but at least read what Tam and Di have to say on the topic of narrow boats in the biggest locks. I think I recall that part of it is assumed that you stay on the boat generally, but that actually getting yourself adequately secured to the correct lockside "bollards", (or whatever our continental friends call them!), may be less than trivial if your boat is a narrow boat, (but may be remembering wrongly!....)

 

Not impossible of course, but maybe not as idyllic as you are envisaging.

[Albion]

Hi all,

 

We are thinking of moving to France in 2012 with our 58ft narrowboat, we have no idea what is involved with this, so wondered if anyone has done a couple of years in France recently and could give us a heads up with good transport companies to ship our narrowboat and the costs, what licences we need, whether you need a seperate licence for trade as you do here, or even if you can be a canal trader! Best areas and worst areas.

 

We are looking at a few blogs from people but there's a ,lot to go through to find out the basics and google isn't much help so any friendly advice would be much appreciated.

 

Many thanks

 

Will

 

We have boated over in France since 2006 with two boats. Our latest, a Sagar barge of 53ft x 12.5ft, was shipped by CPL Transport Ltd (see: http://www.cpltrans.com/) in July this year for £3750 plus VAT. This is for the truck and escort van and two men with all the permits etc. CPL were very efficient and are highly recommended, arriving exactly on time etc.

You will have to choose where you have the boat dropped into the water as not all boatyards have cranes capable of lifting steel craft of our sort of weight. One that I can recommend is Chantier Fluviale de Migennes (previously owned by Englishman Jo Parfitt but recently sold to Englishman Simon Evans). Another advantage of this yard is that CPL have delivered there many times so it all goes like clockwork.

 

Licences are issued by the VNF (see:https://www.vnf.fr/vignettesVNF/accueil.do) and are based on area not just length. You can get different licences for Spring,Summer and Autumn or for the whole year but, generally, the whole year one is barely much more expensive than two of the seasonal ones. If you don't move you don't need a licence. Some of the prettier canals close in in the winter (Nov to end March) so, if you are based on those, you'll need to arrange winter moorings in a port somewhere.

 

I'm not sure about trading licences as, other than hotel and restaurant boats, I haven't seen anyone trading.

 

Good canal guides are the Editions de Breil (see:http://www.france-waterways.com/public/public_en/presentation.php) which are available in the UK from Amazon (for one source, there may be others).

 

Most people seem to like the Burgundy region (Nivernais, Bourgogne etc) and these, being some of the smaller canals, make a good starting point until you get used to the differences.

 

Moorings with free electricity are rare now and coupled with port/town charges for overnight mooring (based on length so you at 58ft are going to be charged more than most) can soon add up so be prepared to keep spending money.

 

There are significant differences. You are not allowed to work manual locks yourself. You must wait for a lock-keeper. Out of peak season he can be occupied elsewhere with another boat/s and so you must expect to spend quite a bit of time waiting. Also, their lunchtime is sacrosanct and you will have to tie up and wait for him/her to return. This whole thing can be frustrating and make progress quite slow but you do get used to the slower pace of life. However, it does mean that your trip planning has to be better because there is no such thing as starting at the crack of dawn and boating until night to catch up on schedules, you are limited by the pace of work of the lock-keepers and they can be quite laid back

 

There is one comment that I would make though about your plan and that is the use of a narrowboat. In my opinion they aren't ideally suited to French boating. You work the boat through the locks from the decks of the boat and this can involve throwing ropes round hidden bollards from your decks and at the bottom of the locks. Some lockies will help you, others won't. Slinging ropes and handling a bucking boat held on straining ropes (as the lockies can sometimes be a bit careless with the paddles when filling) won't be easy from typical nb decks. I'm not saying that you can't or shouldn't do it but be aware that a nb isn't ideal. That by the way is in the smaller locks; there will be others where you will look like a spit in the corner and you may be mixing it with big commercials and no-one will worry if your rope breaks/slips and you're spinning round like a top.

 

HTH, if you want any more info then PM me.

Roger

 

Edited to add that you have to use DERV (white diesel) in France for propulsion and that can get expensive per litre at port prices (I've just paid €1.40/litre in port for about 460 litres gulp). You can get fuel cheaper from local supermarket fillings stations but it does mean lugging heavy cans around and storing those cans somewhere when not in use.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Albion

[haggis]

Tremendous link!!

 

Indeed it is! Does anyone know what has hapenned to Bill and his dog, Fanny, since they brought Rosy back to the UK. There were occassional emails about his progress but nothing for a while

 

haggis

Edited December 29, 2010 by haggis

[Albion]

Indeed it is! Does anyone know what has hapenned to Bill and his dog, Fanny, since they broughtr Rosy back to the UK. There were occassional emails about his progress but nothing for a while

 

haggis

 

He has, just the other, day sent an e-mail newsletter to those of us subscibed to it to apologise for the gap in news and to fill us in on things. He lives on Rosy somehere in the Rugby/Brinklow area IIRC.

Roger

[stagedamager]

Having family in the area I can totally recommend the canal du midi around Carcassonne, a beautiful part of the world.

Regards

Dan

[nigel carton]

I'll take it over for you! Could do with a challenge.

[DaveG]

I've lived in France for 17 years though, ironically, most of my "canal time" has been in the UK.

 

If you are moving to France full-time and intend to work or trade you will need to select a "home" base and register with the local Chambre de Commerce or, if your business involves a trade (e.g. electrician, mechanic etc etc) with the Chambre de Metiers. Be aware that many skills and UK qualifications are not recognized in France (so much for the EU) and you may need to sit an exam. You will definitely need French translations of any qualifications you intend to uses.

 

Businesses are much more strictly regulated than in the UK. The type of business you register will depend on your turnover. All but "Micro-Enterprise" will require you to employ an accountant. Be aware that accountants in France are both expensive and also work to the benefit of the state, not the individual.

 

You will be liable for French social charges which, again, are not cheap. You will need to take out "top-up" medical insurance as the state does not reimburse 100% of your medical bills except under certain specified conditions. You will also need a bank account.

 

Do not be tempted to trade or work "on the black" - the penalties are enormous (and may even result in your boat being confiscated) and, sadly, due to past indiscretions by many ex-pats the British are prone to much more detailed scrutiny than the French worker. Please don't let anyone convince you you will "get away with it", you won't. Anyone in a competing registered business will almost certainly "shop" you to the authorities.

 

Finally - if you intend to work you must learn the language. The French bureaucracy is complex and civil servants (fonctionnaires) do not see it as their job to speak to you in English and you will have far more dealings with them than you would in the UK. Also, if you have the misfortune to fall ill you will need to know exactly what the doctor is telling you.

 

Hope this is of some use even if it does sound somewhat negative, but the French are sticklers for rules.

 

And finally, just remember that "demain" means the same as "manana"....but without the same sense of urgency!!

[Ally]

not sure just where in the midlands you are, but we have used Crane Hire Solutions on about 15 occassions, for 3 lifts each time minimum, around leicestershire & derbyshire...very used to doing boats...I wouldn't use anyone else! Tel: 01530411778

Edited December 29, 2010 by Ally

[Biggles]

I shall be following this thread

 

Biggles

[Guest]

When are you thinking of going?

 

Not for a good few years yet - I've managed to retire early (Next month) but Jan my wife is carrying on for a couple of years yet.

 

Forgot to add - you might find THIS quite useful too - I have an older version (and don't remember it costing that much!!).

 

Pretty informative though...

 

 

 

..

Edited December 30, 2010 by MJG

[Albion]

One other thing that I've thought of to add to my earlier contribution is the possession of the ICC (International Certificate of Competence) plus the CEVNI endorsement (a sort of Highway Code of signs for the waterway). These can be obtained through most of the RYA training establishments. They aren't particularly hard to do. The ICC is a boat handling and simple rope handling course and the CEVNI endorsement involves studying the booklet and answering 14 (IIRC) questions on waterway signs etc. The RYA 'licence' (for want of a better word) that you receive to show that you hold the certificate has to be renewed every few years but it is a formality as you don't have to re-do the exam.

Roger

[Neil TNC]

Hi all,

 

We are thinking of moving to France in 2012 with our 58ft narrowboat, we have no idea what is involved with this, so wondered if anyone has done a couple of years in France recently and could give us a heads up with good transport companies to ship our narrowboat and the costs, what licences we need, whether you need a seperate licence for trade as you do here, or even if you can be a canal trader! Best areas and worst areas.

 

We are looking at a few blogs from people but there's a ,lot to go through to find out the basics and google isn't much help so any friendly advice would be much appreciated.

 

Many thanks

 

Will

 

I presume you have seen Anne and Olly's NB Wandering Snail blog?

Wandering Snail blog

They currently have their NB over there, so would be good to contact.

[Amicus]

Hi all,

 

We are thinking of moving to France

 

Many thanks

 

Will

 

ain't got time to read above to see if this is mentioned, plenty of guff here

 

http://www.tagweb.co.uk/french-waterways/

[Guest]

ain't got time to read above to see if this is mentioned, plenty of guff here

 

http://www.tagweb.co.uk/french-waterways/

 

What a splendid web site - thanks for posting that.

Edited December 30, 2010 by MJG

[Robyn]

Thank you to everyone who posted, all the blogs are really informative. We're beggining to think it is not as idillic as we first thought.

 

The expense would be an issue as for a better experience we would need to sell our boat and get a widebeam which we do not really want to do, I know there are some narrowboats over there but from the information posted it is harder with a narrowboat.

 

The other problem would be the trading aspect, over here we trade from our narrowboat with a small business, we can not find the appropriate licence information for trading from the narrowboat in France and we do not want a premises, as we like the fact we can move the business to anywhere with us.

 

We're going to do some more research and possible hire a boat over there this year to ascertain whether we would like it.

 

Again many thanks for all your time in posting, it has helped us a lot.

 

Cheers

 

Will

Edited January 6, 2011 by Robyn

[Albion]

Thank you to everyone who posted, all the blogs are really informative. We're beggining to think it is not as idillic as we first thought.

 

The expense would be an issue as for a better experience we would need to sell our boat and get a widebeam which we do not really want to do, I know there are some narrowboats over there but from the information posted it is harder with a narrowboat.

 

The other problem would be the trading aspect, over here we trade from our narrowboat with a small business, we can not find the appropriate licence information for trading from the narrowboat in France and we do not want a premises, as we like the fact we can move the business to anywhere with us.

 

We're going to do some more research and possible hire a boat over there this year to ascertain whether we would like it.

 

Again many thanks for all your time in posting, it has helped us a lot.

 

Cheers

 

Will

 

I think your further research and a possible hire trip is very sensible particularly as you wish to continue a waterway business over there. I can concur with the comments made about the qualifications required in France to trade as I have been told just the same info by businessmen over there. Obviously, we don't know what you trade in but, for example, an English builder/plumber/electrician/handyman that I know over there is faced with huge government taxes for running his business. He also broke his wrist recently and had to keep paying the taxes up front despite, as a sole-trader, his inability to continue earning a living. I have also been told that when you set up a business there the government assess what they think you will earn and tax you in the first year based on that assessment so you are required to pay whether you are earning that amount or your first year business is on the point of collapse. It's a bit different to the UK where taxes (other than VAT returns) are retrospectively applied depending on figures submitted.

Good luck with your research so that you make the right decision whatever that may be.

Roger

[Robyn]

I think your further research and a possible hire trip is very sensible particularly as you wish to continue a waterway business over there. I can concur with the comments made about the qualifications required in France to trade as I have been told just the same info by businessmen over there. Obviously, we don't know what you trade in but, for example, an English builder/plumber/electrician/handyman that I know over there is faced with huge government taxes for running his business. He also broke his wrist recently and had to keep paying the taxes up front despite, as a sole-trader, his inability to continue earning a living. I have also been told that when you set up a business there the government assess what they think you will earn and tax you in the first year based on that assessment so you are required to pay whether you are earning that amount or your first year business is on the point of collapse. It's a bit different to the UK where taxes (other than VAT returns) are retrospectively applied depending on figures submitted.

Good luck with your research so that you make the right decision whatever that may be.

Roger

Hi Roger

 

Thank you for the reply. We run a vinyl graphics business from the narrowboat, which also cover printed tshirts and mugs, I can not find what sort of catergory this would come under so that we can try and work out what licences is needed.

 

We are aiming to go over in August sometime and hopefully by then we will know what we need to get in place to trade etc and then we can see if we can handle the widebeam boats as we have only had a narrowboat for 3 years and expect them to be mighty different to that experience lol

 

Many thanks

 

Will

[Tam & Di]

We run a vinyl graphics business from the narrowboat, which also cover printed tshirts and mugs, I can not find what sort of catergory this would come under so that we can try and work out what licences is needed.

 

As several people have noted, taking a narrow boat to France is not quite that simple. You say you've been on your boat for three years, but I don't know how much boating you've actually done. The smaller canals such as the Midi and Burgundy/Nivernais which have been mentioned are not substantially different to boating in the UK, though movement is rather more restricted as you do not work locks yourselves. Also these smaller canals are closed in the winter - generally about November-Easter. There are several narrow boats over here, though I suspect the owners have all had quite a bit of UK experience first.

 

On those small canals there is probably little more risk than on UK canals, but once you leave those you really do need to know what you are doing. Most n/bs get away with it, but that is what they are doing - getting away with it - and the accident rate among newcomers (with barges and wideboats too) is higher than ever made public. A major problem with a narrow boat is that in a lock you need to use lines fore and aft which have to be thrown up onto a suitable bollard, or better still you just work with a fore end line and drive the boat in head gear against that to hold yourself steady. In either event it means you are dealing with fairly strong and long lines worked from the boat to the bank, and a narrow boat just does not have a lot of room at the front to do this. In a larger lock you may be in company with commercial traffic. They work using one fore end line as described, so you have to get in and and sort yourself out fairly promptly before you are thrown about by the turbulence they set up.

 

VHF radio is fairly irrelevant on the small canals mentioned, but is essential on larger ones and mandatory on the Seine - and the language is French, of course. You need a ship's radio licence plus a user's licence for yourself.

 

The essential skipper’s licence is an ICC with inland endorsement. You can get that in the UK, but it will not give you any experience of what you will be doing in France. Unfortunately it does give some people a false sense of security and puts them at risk. It is much better to get the licence in France, as you then also get experience of the sort of waterways you will boat on. Your idea of going to have a look and hiring a boat makes a lot of sense. Do bear in mind though that the hire company will be doing a lot of back-up that will not be available to a private boat - fuel and water is not anywhere as available as in the UK, and pump-out facilities almost non-existent (except at hire bases, but they do not welcome private craft). Also you will need to be or rapidly become very adept at repairs to all the on-board systems, as there are not boatyards within spitting distance of each other as there are in the UK - the nearest to us at Cambrai in N. France is 24 hours boating away, even at our 8 kph speed. If you get chance do try to look at some of the larger canals and rivers as well.

 

If you do get chance to do that, do not be put off by the size of the waterways themselves. Obvious there is more danger in the event of an engine breakdown if you are on them, but at least there is plenty of space between you and the sometimes gigantic commercial and passengercraft. Even the locks are no problem if you are in them on your own (or with other pleasurecraft) though you need to be more adept in company with commercials, as noted. Many of these locks have floating bollards for you to hang onto and which then go up or down with you - don't make the mistake of tying the boat to them and wandering away though, or sod's law will take effect. The most tricky can be the Freycinet (craft 40m x 5.10m) canals with commercial traffic, as you do have to pass them close enough to shake hands with the skipper, and the water movements can take you by surprise until you sort out what you are doing.

 

There is no licence for trading from your boat as in the UK other than as a freight craft, passengerboat or hotel boat. We are registered and officially authorised as a boat school with the French Bureau concerned, but our boat licence is nevertheless as a pleasurecraft. This comes in several varieties based on length of use and length x beam of the vessel. I’m sure that is all you would need. As far as registering the actual business itself I would think it depends on how it works. Many people work on board via their laptop, and pay their taxes in their “home” country, but if you plan to be permanently or semi-permanently in France this is probably not possible. Also if you have customers who visit your “shop”.

 

Reading back over this I see it seems very negative. It is not meant to be. Lots of people do get here and have an extremely happy time. I guess I do hate the thought of any more narrow boats coming here - mooring space can be in short supply and with a narrow boat tied to the bank nothing except another narrow boat can tie alongside, and if it has covers over the bow and stern even that is a problem. With a barge the side decks mean that any other type of vessel - another barge, a cruiser or narrow boat - can tie alongside and people can get to the bank readily. So preferably swap your narrow boat first. Although the Midi and Burgundy/Nivernais are regarded here as muddy ditches they are much deeper than most UK canals, and there is very little difference between handling a wide boat and narrow boat if you have sufficient depth and width of water available. You would quickly get used to the extra width and weight.

 

I’ve assumed, because it is what most people mean, that you have the main body of France in mind. Don’t forget though that there is a large body of interconnected waterways in Brittany. These are not joined up to the rest of the system except via a sea passage down the west coast to the Bordeaux region!

 

One thing I would strongly recommend is that you join the DBA <www.barges.org>. Although basically for barge owners there are quite a few narrow boat owners too, and it really is the place to find out everything you need to know about cruising on the continent.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Tam & Di

[Athy]

If you want to experience narrowboating in France as a hirer, Minervois Cruisers (an associate company of Napton Boats) will hire you one. We hired from them a few years ago.