Propulsion/steering

[DobieJade]

Having just got our 57ft boat, using it on rivers, all be it going against the flow it seemed to steer very well. Since coming on to the Grand Union we find the response to the tiller extremely slow. I know that its only 4 mph and the slower you go you lose some steering. The engine I have is a Beta 43, PRM150 gearbox and 2.reduction. Prop? Rudder appears to be ok, but is there another prop I can fit to the boat to improve things. i.e Axiom. Would appreciate advice.

[Paul Evans]

Have you checked the prop for a rubbish collection? Muck on the prop can affect the steering.

 

Are you sure you are not pushing it a tad too fast? The canal is shallower than the river and running the boat a bit fast will cause the back end to dig in and for steering to disappear in extreme cases.

[bottle]

As far as I can find out, hearsay and all that, the only thing an Axiom does better than an ordinary prop is make the boat go backwards as fast as it can forward.

If you have about £700, I believe, you could always try one.

 

 

Many on here always recommend Crowther for a better prop.

 

You may have withdrawal symptoms from travelling in deep wide water.

 

Give it a couple a weeks of narrow shallow water, it should get better and be a lot cheaper

Edited August 21, 2010 by bottle

[Bobbybass]

Providing the prop is clear..its a fact of life that there is a certain amount of 'suction' as you go along canals.

In some very tight and shallow parts..you can almost bring yourself to a stop as the water rushes back in to fill where the boat was and causes a flow which self defeats. This can be seen under some narrow bridges where you look down and see a large flow on either side from the water displacement and the boat seems to come to a virtual stop.

If you use a larger 'prop', it is unlikely to help and excess speed will cause a wash and damage the canal sides and upset wildlife.

In some shallow parts your prop and rudder are dragging near the bottom...which is evident when you have the hull blacked and find the bottom plate worn smooth.

Most boats have a maximum speed under certain conditions and increasing engine 'revs' will just burn fuel with little increase in speed. This is even the case for large ocean going ships/liners that have a design speed for different hull shapes and no amount of extra engine powere will make it go faster.

I use my handheld satnav sometimes ( just before mooring so the wife can watch Corrie !!) and every day there is a different forward speed for the same engine revs. At 1500 revs ( on my Beta 43 / PRM 160 ) I can do 6 MPH on a river...(even with a light head-flow) but sometimes only 2.8 MPH on canals...but other times at tickover ( 800 RPM) I can do nearly 3 MPH.

 

I love rivers as it gives you a chance to 'open up' the boat , but there is a terminal speed for canals which you have to accept.

 

I would say...don't adjust the boat....adjust yourself...

 

Happy cruising.

 

Bob

[mrsmelly]

Having just got our 57ft boat, using it on rivers, all be it going against the flow it seemed to steer very well. Since coming on to the Grand Union we find the response to the tiller extremely slow. I know that its only 4 mph and the slower you go you lose some steering. The engine I have is a Beta 43, PRM150 gearbox and 2.reduction. Prop? Rudder appears to be ok, but is there another prop I can fit to the boat to improve things. i.e Axiom. Would appreciate advice.

I have the same engine/gearbox on my very heavy seventy footer and it goes along and more importantly stops very well. The canal speed should be much slower than the deeper river and I never try to attain 4mph on the canal, 2mph is about right this is not a speed sport. My prop has been changed to a crowther which does improve things over the usual stuff..........

[PhilR]

My interpretation of the original post was a slow response to the tiller, not a slow engine response. If there is a problem it is most likely due to an undersized rudder or a badly designed rudder. I would think a change of prop is unlikely to have a dramatic effect on steering.

 

What are the dimensions of the rudder and how much leading edge is there? How long is the swim and what is the draft? What is the distance from the prop to the rudder stock?

 

Try getting up to normal cruising speed and then put the gearbox in neutral. You should still get plenty of steerage in neutral without any assistance from the prop.

 

Phil

[Albion]

If DJ has only been used to the new boat on the deep and fast river then canal work will seem hugely different. On the shallower and narrower canals turning corners can be a nightmare until you adapt to the new boat and the conditions. In fact, if the boat is pushed too hard (fast) you can completely run wide around a corner and stuff the nose into the opposite bank and end up skewed across the cut (usually just as someone else is approaching ). The solution in this scenario is to reduce the throttle and not increase it. This can seem counter-intuitive but it works because you are reducing the suction effect that is preventing you getting the stern round (away from the nearest bank). So, as others have said, my first recommendation would be to wait until you get used to the boat and to reduce speed if you get a situation where the boat isn't responding as you think it should. This is completely the opposite to the technique that you can use on deep and wide waterways.

Roger

[alan_fincher]

Can you confirm which rivers you have found it OK on, please, and which bit of the GU you are on when getting a poor response ?

 

Whilst I appreciate all the"coming off the big wide river on to the shallow canal argument", I would point out that the GU (at least from Brentford to Birmingham) is one of the deepest widest of our canal network, and tiller response should hardly be a problem there, particularly on a 57 foot boat with a "sensible" Beta engine.

 

Who is the builder of the boat, please ?

 

How have you managed to travel most or all of your rivers "going against the flow", please ? If that's the case, it doesn't sound like you joined the GU at Brentford, then, so which is the problem bit ?

 

 

 

I never try to attain 4mph on the canal, 2mph is about right this is not a speed sport. My prop has been changed to a crowther which does improve things over the usual stuff..........

Splashing out on a Crowther prop seems a bit of an expensive luxury for anybody who doesn't go above 2 mph !

 

I doubt a prop change will make much difference to what is described here. If anything is wrongly engineered, I'd say rudder, either shape or placement, is the most likely.

Edited August 21, 2010 by alan_fincher

[Speedwheel]

This can be seen under some narrow bridges where you look down and see a large flow on either side from the water displacement and the boat seems to come to a virtual stop.

 

That is simply as a result of going to fast through bridgeholes.

 

If you take the boats down to tickover (or even out of gear all together which avoids picking up rubbish) just as you are going through, then the water behind you will actually surge you forward through the bridgehole. Get it right and you will feel as the boat accelerates.

 

You so often see people going through bridges and the boat virtually grinds to a halt with the engine still going flat out.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Speedwheel

[Bobbybass]

That is simply as a result of going to fast through bridgeholes.

 

If you take the boats down to tickover (or even out of gear all together which avoids picking up rubbish) just as you are going through, then the water behind you will actually surge you forward through the bridgehole. Get it right and you will feel as the boat accelerates.

 

You so often see people going through bridges and the boat virtually grinds to a halt with the engine still going flat out.

 

I wasn't advocating going fast or slow through bridge holes...I was merely illustrating the suction and drag effect of varying canal depths and widths.

This was in response to the original posters query about the speed difference between rivers and canals.

I agree..tickover bridges are best for most.

 

Bob

[DobieJade]

Hi Alan

We picked the boat up on the River Nene and joined the GU at Northmpton, now on Oxford heading up to the Coventry then T&M

Still finding boat more tricky than on the river. The builder was Keith Wood Narrowboats and it is 6 years old and wasn't scrimped on. Think its more likely to be a problem with me rather than boat.!!!!

Can you confirm which rivers you have found it OK on, please, and which bit of the GU you are on when getting a poor response ?

 

Whilst I appreciate all the"coming off the big wide river on to the shallow canal argument", I would point out that the GU (at least from Brentford to Birmingham) is one of the deepest widest of our canal network, and tiller response should hardly be a problem there, particularly on a 57 foot boat with a "sensible" Beta engine.

 

Who is the builder of the boat, please ?

 

How have you managed to travel most or all of your rivers "going against the flow", please ? If that's the case, it doesn't sound like you joined the GU at Brentford, then, so which is the problem bit ?

 

 

 

 

Splashing out on a Crowther prop seems a bit of an expensive luxury for anybody who doesn't go above 2 mph !

 

I doubt a prop change will make much difference to what is described here. If anything is wrongly engineered, I'd say rudder, either shape or placement, is the most likely.

[NB Alnwick]

>snip<

 

Whilst I appreciate all the"coming off the big wide river on to the shallow canal argument", I would point out that the GU (at least from Brentford to Birmingham) is one of the deepest widest of our canal network, and tiller response should hardly be a problem there, particularly on a 57 foot boat with a "sensible" Beta engine.

 

>snip<

 

That is a bold claim for the GU !!! It may well be the "deepest widest canal" in Buckinghamshire (not very much to compare with there!) but as canals go it is pretty shallow for the most part - even during the extensive improvements of the 1930s it was rarely dredged to more than 4' 6". The GU may have wide locks but the canal itself is not significantly wider than any of the other canals in England. By comparison, the Gloucester & Sharpness was built to take vessels with a draught of over 10' and a beam of over 30' - both well over twice as much as on the GU!

 

Actually, I can well understand how a boat coming off the Nene may feel less responsive on the GU - especially the Northampton Arm. The lack of depth and current, the heavy silt (especially if you do not stick to the centre of the cut) and the generally slower rate of progress will all combine to create this effect. It is probably normal . . .

Edited August 22, 2010 by NB Alnwick

[Albion]

Hi Alan

We picked the boat up on the River Nene and joined the GU at Northmpton, now on Oxford heading up to the Coventry then T&M

Still finding boat more tricky than on the river. The builder was Keith Wood Narrowboats and it is 6 years old and wasn't scrimped on. Think its more likely to be a problem with me rather than boat.!!!!

 

DJ, while I appreciate that the whole process is a learning curve and that you will, almost certainly, be improving all the time, but can you say which canals have been the worst for the lack of response you are talking about? For example, was the GU better than the Oxford? This might give us a clue to the source of the problem. Don't forget that all canals have a channel (you only have to look at a drained section of canal to realise that) and it doesn't always run where you might think that it does. As an example of that if you see a drained pound between two locks you will most probably see that the channel doesn't run straight from one lock to the other but wanders around slightly. This wandering channel can have a huge affect on your boat going where you want it to. I'm not sure who Keith Woods used for his shells but, perhaps it was Bellairs. They did the shell for my very first narrowboat and that was OK for steering.

Roger

[romarni123]

Oh my wait till you get on the coventry

[Speedwheel]

I wasn't advocating going fast or slow through bridge holes...I was merely illustrating the suction and drag effect of varying canal depths and widths.

This was in response to the original posters query about the speed difference between rivers and canals.

I agree..tickover bridges are best for most.

 

Bob

 

Yes sorry - In my long winded and unclear way I was agreeing with you

[matty40s]

Whilst I appreciate all the"coming off the big wide river on to the shallow canal argument", I would point out that the GU (at least from Brentford to Birmingham) is one of the deepest widest of our canal network, and tiller response should hardly be a problem there

 

 

Alan, that's because you have a floaty boat......

 

The GU is seriously silted in strange places sometimes, and very shallow when there has been a lot of traffic through sections with leaky gates etc.

 

The first time I realised what my engine could really do was when i got onto the Soar and then the Trent last year. I have lived within it's canal based limits ever since. Sure, there are stretches of the lower GU where you enjoy River depths, but not many, as many of the Gravel Run crews found.

[FadeToScarlet]

Having just got our 57ft boat, using it on rivers, all be it going against the flow it seemed to steer very well. Since coming on to the Grand Union we find the response to the tiller extremely slow. I know that its only 4 mph and the slower you go you lose some steering. The engine I have is a Beta 43, PRM150 gearbox and 2.reduction. Prop? Rudder appears to be ok, but is there another prop I can fit to the boat to improve things. i.e Axiom. Would appreciate advice.

 

I think it might just be the interaction with the bottom of the canal, as it is a lot shallower.

 

For example, get near the edge, and the back of the boat will be sucked into the bank because it's shallower.

 

My boat feels like it steers differently on canals, and it is a big change to the rivers where we normally spend our time.

 

I think it might just be the interaction with the bottom of the canal, as it is a lot shallower.

 

For example, get near the edge, and the back of the boat will be sucked into the bank because it's shallower.

 

The boat can sometimes feel like it's got a mind of its own!

 

My boat feels like it steers differently on canals, and it is a big change to the rivers where we normally spend our time.

[DobieJade]

I think it is just the river/canal difference. Having done my first 4 days on a river, which was brill, then suddenly I am on a canal it was a huge difference.

On Oxford Canal today and tomorrow Coventry Canal, but I found everything a bit easier today so maybe its just me getting used to the canal handling.

Thanks everyone for the advice. If anyone ses LADY BELLA on the Coventry tomorrow, give Ron and Chris a wave

[romarni123]

I think it is just the river/canal difference. Having done my first 4 days on a river, which was brill, then suddenly I am on a canal it was a huge difference.

On Oxford Canal today and tomorrow Coventry Canal, but I found everything a bit easier today so maybe its just me getting used to the canal handling.

Thanks everyone for the advice. If anyone ses LADY BELLA on the Coventry tomorrow, give Ron and Chris a wave

 

 

If I see you on Atherstone flight will give you a wave

[WotEver]

Oh my wait till you get on the coventry

OP should take a detour up the Ashby while he's there

 

Tony

 

this board is broken

Edited August 24, 2010 by WotEver

[alan_fincher]

That is a bold claim for the GU !!! It may well be the "deepest widest canal" in Buckinghamshire (not very much to compare with there!) but as canals go it is pretty shallow for the most part - even during the extensive improvements of the 1930s it was rarely dredged to more than 4' 6". The GU may have wide locks but the canal itself is not significantly wider than any of the other canals in England. By comparison, the Gloucester & Sharpness was built to take vessels with a draught of over 10' and a beam of over 30' - both well over twice as much as on the GU!

 

Slightly curious argument !

 

Because there is the occasional very wide or deep canal, like the G&S, the GU isn't actually that deep, compared to the more typically sized canals ? And you never even compared to the Manchester Ship.

 

If you rule out the few big ones, and stick to the more typical small barge, or narrow boat sized canals, I'd maintain that the GU is definitely at the deeper / wider end of the spectrum.

 

The OP was talking about a 57 foot boat, with a Beta engine, for Gawd's sake, not one of your typical Hudson dredgers, or other vintage engined boat.

 

Any well constructed, modern, not too deep draughted boat should have pretty good control on the GU, unless levels are unusually down.

 

Whilst I appreciate all the"coming off the big wide river on to the shallow canal argument", I would point out that the GU (at least from Brentford to Birmingham) is one of the deepest widest of our canal network, and tiller response should hardly be a problem there

 

Alan, that's because you have a floaty boat......

 

But there was every indication so did the OP to whom I was responding !

 

Our boat is not so "floaty" that we have no idea where the shallower bits are, but I think the GU compares favourably to most of the narrow canals we have been on.

 

The GU is seriously silted in strange places sometimes, and very shallow when there has been a lot of traffic through sections with leaky gates etc.

 

The first time I realised what my engine could really do was when i got onto the Soar and then the Trent last year. I have lived within it's canal based limits ever since. Sure, there are stretches of the lower GU where you enjoy River depths, but not many, as many of the Gravel Run crews found.

 

Yes, but on the other hand, Mike Askin has published in the past a list of places where he easily makes "illegal" speeds with Victoria with no bother on the GU.

 

I know the Gravel boats had problems in pounds that were down. They were making pretty fine progress in those that were not, (as did the boats in the last Jam 'Ole reconstruction that I shadowed). I bet they didn't find the Coventry easier, did they !

 

It sounds though, that it's steerer inexperience, rather than boat inadequacies.