Non turbo engine oil

[DobieJade]

what engine oil do you use? Having trouble finding a non-turbo oil for Beta Greenline 43 engine

[Tony Brooks]

what engine oil do you use? Having trouble finding a non-turbo oil for Beta Greenline 43 engine

 

Beta seem very relaxed about the bore glazing thing (which is not definite and only precautionary in most cases) so any make of SAE 15w40 oil in API CE or CF should be fine. I am sure you can get this from motor factors and chandlers.

[Woollymishka]

We bought 15/40 from Halfords and had no probs - well not with the oil but that is another story!

[Chris-B]

Morris oils do a sae 10w/40 which you can buy from their website

[churchward]

Morris oils do a sae 10w/40 which you can buy from their website

The Morris golden film 10W 40 does seem to work OK in the Beta and with the 10W spec helps cold starts in the winter. However as Tony said a 15W 40 API CE/CF oil is just fine too and is more likely to be found on a motor factors shelves.

[bottle]

If the store chain Wilkinsons is in your area have look there.

[WotEver]

As a quick hijack... I was clearing out a shed at the weekend and came across a nearly full 5L container of Castrol GTX. Can I use that in my Vetus M3.10? Is there a problem with (opened) oil being stored for years?

 

Tony

 

edit to change GXT to GTX

Edited August 5, 2010 by WotEver

[Machpoint005]

what engine oil do you use? Having trouble finding a non-turbo oil for Beta Greenline 43 engine

I use 15W 40 non-synthetic mineral oil from Andrew Page Motor Factors in my Beta 43. It's about £22 for 10 litres (2 x 5li) so that gives you enough for the PRM gearbox as well.

 

As a quick hijack... I was clearing out a shed at the weekend and came across a nearly full 5L container of Castrol GXT. Can I use that in my Vetus M3.10? Is there a problem with (opened) oil being stored for years?

 

Tony

I wouldn't use it - its 'orrible frothy stuff at the best of times.

 

 

edited in response to a later post - I checked the invoice and it is 15W40!

Edited August 4, 2010 by Machpoint005

[OldGoat]

A very nice man (won't give his name, 'cos you'll all ring him up) from Beta said:-

 

Strictly 15/40 ONLY in kubota engines (in the UK anyway). Wouldn't budge - even whey I said 10/40 was on the list (for colder climes).

Makes reasonable sense as canal engines run cooler that in dumper trucks (or whatever).

A complete pain as 15/40 is getting more difficult to source.

 

However, I did find some Comma 15/40 at a very good price in my local motor factors; so it pays to shop around.

Morris posh oil is lovely, but very expensive and as for mail order - don't ask....

[Radio-Ga-Ga]

The only good quality one Ive found that's exactly right is Shire 15/40 api CD and it is expensive, about £23-24 from chandlers. Beta say CF is ok but only non turbo, but since Cf includes turbo oils thats a bit of nonsense since all CF oils say on the tin "turbo and non turbo".

Edited August 4, 2010 by Radio-Ga-Ga

[Tim]

Been using Morris 15/40 in my Beta, £19 for 5l last year.

[ymu]

I'm a bit lost with oils.

 

The mechanic on our recently rented boat used a low grade 30 CC oil to minimise bore polishing. It was a weird engine noone's ever heard of - Matador 1.8, 4 cylinders.

 

We're using the same on our new boat - a Bukh DV36 - because we're continuous cruisers and need to run the engine in neutral a fair bit. The previous owner happened to use exactly the same stuff, and engines were his thing - but he was on shoreline all the time with little cruising...

 

Any reason we should consider changing?

[Radio-Ga-Ga]

Been using Morris 15/40 in my Beta, £19 for 5l last year.

Nothing wrong with Morris oil, but last time I looked there was no 15/40 non turbo, some other good oils but not 15/40 so if you want the right grade and sevice spec morris is ruled out.

[DobieJade]

We have found Mobil Super M 15W/40 mineral engine oil at neilsonscdg.co.uk selling for £19.95 +vat for 5litres + 1 litre free. Classification ACEA A2 B2 A3 B3 API SL CF. This fits in with what Beta told me on th phone

[Tony Brooks]

If the store chain Wilkinsons is in your area have look there.

 

Trialled theirs but am suspicious about the smell. If it turns out to be some type of re-refined or recycled oil I would have concerns about the stability of the oil molecules.

[bottle]

Thanks Tony had not thought of that but of curse I am not that knowledgeable to know.

 

Ah! well back to the drawing board.

[rgreg]

The Morris golden film 10W 40 does seem to work OK in the Beta and with the 10W spec helps cold starts in the winter. However as Tony said a 15W 40 API CE/CF oil is just fine too and is more likely to be found on a motor factors shelves.

 

Morris Gold Film is CC rated. Will this be ok if manufacturer specifies CF?

[churchward]

Morris Gold Film is CC rated. Will this be ok if manufacturer specifies CF?

I would say in a canal boat engine very likely although due to low additive in API CC one may want to use a flushing oil occasionaly or mor mildy just a higher API spec every few changes.

 

Personally if the engine spec requires a min of API CF I would stick with that. There are other Morris oils of 15W 40 and API CF or above. Comma/Mobil make some decent 15W 40 API CF too.

[Tim]

From the Beta Manual:

 

Engine oil: Engine oil quality should have the minimum

properties of the American Petroleum Institute “API”

classification CF (CD, or CE). The following table gives grades

of oil viscosity required for various ambient temperature

ranges.

Note: A good quality SAE 15W/40 mineral based multigrade

oil as used in most car diesel engines will meet requirements.

Do not use ‘Turbo Diesel Oil’ or additives, and the use of

synthetic oil is not recommended.

 

Important: When using an oil of different make or viscosity

from the previous one, drain old oil. Never mix two different

types of oil. Engine oil should be changed after first 50 hours

running time and then every year or every 250 hours if

sooner. Oil filter is a cartridge type mounted on the starboard

side of the engine.

 

Ambient Temp. Single Grade Multi-Grade

-30°C to 0°C SAE 10W S AE 10W/30

-15°C to +15°C SAE 20W SAE 15W/40

0°C to +30°C SAE 30 SAE 15W/40

25°C and above SAE 30 SAE 15W/40

 

API Classifications for diesel engines:

 

C - Commercial

 

CC – Moderate Duty Diesel and Gasoline Engine Service – OBSOLETE

 

CD – Severe Duty Diesel Engine Service – OBSOLETE

 

CD-II – Severe Duty Two-Cycle Diesel Engine Service – OBSOLETE

 

CE – Very Severe Diesel Engine Service – OBSOLETE

 

CF-4 – Severe Diesel Engine Service – CF-4 is designed to replace the CE engine oil classification. CF-4 designates oils with additive

packages for protecting high speed, low emission, four stroke diesels in heavy duty on-highway applications. Requirements for CF-4 oils

include greater oxidation resistance, high activity detergents and dispersants to prevent sludging and deposits. Oil consumption requirements

have also been stiffened. CF-4 oils supersede CD and CE oils and may be used where these service classifications are recommended.

LE’s 8800 MONOLEC ULTRA Engine Oil and LE’s 8130 MONOLEC ULTRA-BLEND Engine Oil exceed API CF-4 rating.

 

CF – Indirect Injected Diesel Engine Service – Service typical of indirect injected diesel engines and other diesel engines that use a

broad range of fuel types, including those using fuel with sulfur content above 0.5%. Requirements include control of piston deposits, wear

and bearing corrosion. Engines may be naturally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged. CF rated oils may be used when API CD oils

are called for. LE’s 8800 MONOLEC ULTRA Engine Oil, LE’s 8130 MONOLEC ULTRA-BLEND and LE’s MONOLEC GFS Engine Oil meet

the CF requirements.

 

CF-2 – Severe Duty Two-Stroke Cycle Diesel Engine Service – Service typical of two-stroke cycle diesel engines requiring highly effective

control of wear and deposits. Oils designed for this service demonstrate improved performance over API CD-II oils and can be used

wherever API CD-II oils are recommended.

 

CG-4 – 1994 Diesel Engine Service – CG-4 is intended to address engine wear and deposit issues linked to fuel specifications and

engine designs that are required to accommodate 1994 EPA emissions regulations. CG-4 oils exceed the requirements of the API CF-4

service category and replace CF-4. These oils are particularly suited to on-highway, heavy duty truck applications. When combined with

the appropriate “S” category, they can also be used in gasoline and diesel powered personal vehicles -- i.e., automobiles, light trucks and

vans-when recommended by the vehicle or engine manufacturer. LE’s 8800 MONOLEC ULTRA and LE’s 8130 MONOLEC ULTRA-BLEND

Engines Oils meet CG-4 specifications.

 

CH-4 – 1998 Reduced Emission Diesel Engine Service – The CH-4 category is intended to address the requirements for high-speed,

four stroke diesel engines to meet 1998 exhaust emission standards. CH-4 oils are specifically compounded for use with diesel fuels containing

up to 0.5% sulfur. They can also be used in gasoline engines when combined with the appropriate “S” category when the vehicle

or engine manufacturer recommends. CH-4 oils can replace those rated CD, CE, CF-4, and CG-4. LE’s 8800 MONOLEC ULTRA meets

the CH-4 specification and is rated API CH-4, CF, CF-2/SM.

 

CI-4 – 2002 Severe-Duty Diesel Engine Service – The API CI-4 Service category describes oils for use in those high-speed, four-stroke

cycle diesel engines designed to meet 2004 exhaust emission standards, to be implemented October 2002. These oils are compounded

for use in all applications with diesel fuels ranging in sulfur content up to 0.05% by weight. These oils are especially effective at sustaining

engine durability where Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) and other exhaust emission componentry may be used. Optimum protection

is provided for control of corrosive wear tendencies, low and high temperature stability, soot handling properties, piston deposit control,

valvetrain wear, oxidative thickening, foaming and viscosity loss due to shear. API CI-4 oils can effectively lubricate engines calling for API

 

CH-4, CG-4 and CF-4 Service Categories. LE’s 8888 MONOLEC EGR Plus Engine Oil meets the CI-4 and CI-4 Plus specification.

 

CJ-4 – 2006 Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Service; Exhaust Aftertreatment – Introduced in 2006. For high-speed, four-stroke engines

designed to meet 2007 model year on-highway exhaust emission standards. CJ-4 oils are compounded for use in all applications with

diesel fuels ranging in sulfur content up to 500 ppm (0.05% by weight). However, use of these oils with greater than 15 ppm (0.0015%

by weight) sulfur fuel may impact exhaust aftertreatment system durability and/or oil drain interval. CJ-4 oils are effective at sustaining

emission control system durability where particulate filters and other advanced aftertreatment systems are used. Optimum protection is

provided for control of catalyst poisoning, particulate filter blocking, engine wear, piston deposits, low and high temperature stability, soot

handling properties, oxidative thickening, foaming, and viscosity loss due to shear. API CJ-4 oils exceed the performance criteria of API

 

CI-4 with CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, and CF-4 and can effectively lubricate engines calling for those API Service Categories. When

using CJ-4 oil with higher than 15 ppm sulfur fuel, consult the engine manufacturer for service interval. 8800 MONOLEC ULTRA Engine

Oils meet the API CJ-4 specification.

 

Edited to say: Rightly or wrongly! I have Morris Euro 3 15w/40 in my B43 (API CH-4)

Edited August 5, 2010 by Tim

[rgreg]

I would say in a canal boat engine very likely although due to low additive in API CC one may want to use a flushing oil occasionaly or mor mildy just a higher API spec every few changes.

 

Personally if the engine spec requires a min of API CF I would stick with that. There are other Morris oils of 15W 40 and API CF or above. Comma/Mobil make some decent 15W 40 API CF too.

 

Yes, Morris say that Golden Film is designed for canal boats irrespective of the engine manual's API spec.

[Tony Brooks]

From the Beta Manual:

 

Engine oil: Engine oil quality should have the minimum

properties of the American Petroleum Institute “API”

classification CF (CD, or CE). The following table gives grades

of oil viscosity required for various ambient temperature

ranges.

Note: A good quality SAE 15W/40 mineral based multigrade

oil as used in most car diesel engines will meet requirements.

Do not use ‘Turbo Diesel Oil’ or additives, and the use of

synthetic oil is not recommended.

 

Important: When using an oil of different make or viscosity

from the previous one, drain old oil. Never mix two different

types of oil. Engine oil should be changed after first 50 hours

running time and then every year or every 250 hours if

sooner. Oil filter is a cartridge type mounted on the starboard

side of the engine.

 

Ambient Temp. Single Grade Multi-Grade

-30°C to 0°C SAE 10W S AE 10W/30

-15°C to +15°C SAE 20W SAE 15W/40

0°C to +30°C SAE 30 SAE 15W/40

25°C and above SAE 30 SAE 15W/40

 

API Classifications for diesel engines:

 

C - Commercial

 

CC – Moderate Duty Diesel and Gasoline Engine Service – OBSOLETE

 

CD – Severe Duty Diesel Engine Service – OBSOLETE

 

CD-II – Severe Duty Two-Cycle Diesel Engine Service – OBSOLETE

 

CE – Very Severe Diesel Engine Service – OBSOLETE

 

CF-4 – Severe Diesel Engine Service – CF-4 is designed to replace the CE engine oil classification. CF-4 designates oils with additive

packages for protecting high speed, low emission, four stroke diesels in heavy duty on-highway applications. Requirements for CF-4 oils

include greater oxidation resistance, high activity detergents and dispersants to prevent sludging and deposits. Oil consumption requirements

have also been stiffened. CF-4 oils supersede CD and CE oils and may be used where these service classifications are recommended.

LE’s 8800 MONOLEC ULTRA Engine Oil and LE’s 8130 MONOLEC ULTRA-BLEND Engine Oil exceed API CF-4 rating.

 

CF – Indirect Injected Diesel Engine Service – Service typical of indirect injected diesel engines and other diesel engines that use a

broad range of fuel types, including those using fuel with sulfur content above 0.5%. Requirements include control of piston deposits, wear

and bearing corrosion. Engines may be naturally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged. CF rated oils may be used when API CD oils

are called for. LE’s 8800 MONOLEC ULTRA Engine Oil, LE’s 8130 MONOLEC ULTRA-BLEND and LE’s MONOLEC GFS Engine Oil meet

the CF requirements.

 

 

Snip

 

 

The API can publish what it likes about an oil grade being obsolete but if some special or strange operating requirement makes using an oil of that specification prudent then for that application the specification is not obsolete. The API (and ACEA) are largely concerned about the transport industry, then the industrial & plant industry with UK inland boating way out of their sight.

 

I have been wracking my brains to think about other uses of engines that has them running a low speed and very low powers for hours on end. The only one I can think of is in plant where diggers etc. might be left idling for hours on end until it is needed and I doubt that happens very often. It is only precautionary but research seems to have indicated that the additive pack (the chemicals added to base oil to improve its performance) MAY under CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES and in certain ENGINE DESIGNS be a factor in bore glazing in engines operating at low speed and powers. (from a paper supplied by Lister Petter). Vetus told me on the phone that their engines must not be allowed to idle otherwise they will glaze their bores, at one time Isuzu put a lable around the oil fillers demanding an API CC oil, Listers supply their own brand of oil with a low API spec whilst Beta appear very relaxed about the whole thing once the engine is run in.

 

Now API can declare whatever it likes obsolete but I for one will continue working on the precautionary principle and seek out lower API spec oil. I also take what Churchward said about flushing but unless I could be sure I could get all the flushing oil out I would rather use a higher API spec now and again.

[Grace and Favour]

Tony,

Thank you for your informative and helpful post.

 

I have a new boat and engine, and as it's one of the biggest investments I've ever made (investment as in 'expenditure'! ) I intend to take the best care of it I'm capable of.

 

I've seen too many car owners assume that 'oil is oil' and throw the cheapest stuff they can into an engine, with no thought of what may happen to it in the longer term - - -

 

I shall resist the temptation to buy my oil from 'Poundstretcher' (or similar) and make a point of buying the correct oil, and ensuring it's changed ahead of schedule rather than behind schedule.

 

Thanks!

[churchward]

Now API can declare whatever it likes obsolete but I for one will continue working on the precautionary principle and seek out lower API spec oil. I also take what Churchward said about flushing but unless I could be sure I could get all the flushing oil out I would rather use a higher API spec now and again.

It is I agree an odd term of phrase to term an oil additive pack "obsolete" as in truth it doesn't really mean that other than for the API itself. Additive manufacturers still make packs for a wide range of stds (otherwise we couldn't by CC or CF oil for instance) and oil manufacturers still mix with those packs while there is a demand.

 

API would say that the next std always (well nearly) has the properties of the previous "obsolete" stds however as you say they are always biased towards the major market of modern truck/van/car engines. There are more specialist needs and engines that are more akin to older technology as in specialist off highway or agricultural vehicle engines where the higher spec additives may cause problems.

 

I look at the API term "obsolete" to mean "archived" or like a version of software that has had support withdrawn such as early versions of MS-Windows.

 

I agree that if the pump system on an engine doesn't get all or the vast majority of the flushing oil out you would be better off using a higher spec SPI oil to stop the build up of sludge that will happen over time with using an API CC oil. However most systems seem to get the cast majority out and will only leave half a cup or a cup of something left. This will be a small percentage of the 5-7.5 litres of oil that will be put in to fill the engine back up. You could also shorten the engine hours before the next change. Still, I would say best to be cautious, replacement new engines are not cheap so folk need to read the manufacturers recommendations and go from there. There does need to be a balance though as a build up of sludge in an engine can be a problem and narrow oilways etc in effect partially starving some lubrication areas in the engine that will lead to accelerated wear.

[Radio-Ga-Ga]

We have found Mobil Super M 15W/40 mineral engine oil at neilsonscdg.co.uk selling for £19.95 +vat for 5litres + 1 litre free. Classification ACEA A2 B2 A3 B3 API SL CF. This fits in with what Beta told me on th phone

 

As I said in an earlier post Beta (Andrew Winton) insist oil must be 15/40 and non turbo, they specify CF(CD/CE) but CF is a turbo/non turbo spec, the only way to comply with the non turbo requirement is to forget about CF oils and go for CD/CE

Edited August 5, 2010 by Radio-Ga-Ga

[Tony Brooks]

As I said in an earlier post Beta (Andrew Winton) insist oil must be 15/40 and non turbo, they specify CF(CC/CD) but CF is a turbo/non turbo grade, the only way to comply with the non turbo requirement is to forget about CF oils and go for CC or CD.

 

 

I have no idea where Andrew is coming from on this. API effectively define the performance standards for a particular oil and if Beta require an API CF oil then it matters not a jot what else it may say on the can. API CF is API CF. API CF4 has a different additive pack or perhaps more of the same pack to CF but it is still API CF4 whatever else it says on the can.

 

You could also try looking for API CE oil which has a higher performance standards that CD but lower than CF.

 

I suspect Andrew is concerned about customers thinking the latest Mobile 1 fully synthetic 0w10 in API CJ or something would be best for their engine and was stressing the non-turbo oil as a layman's way of saying a lower API specification oil.