Flame failure and bss

[Tim Doran]

I know someone who has had a boat safety and it all went very well. Apart from failing for not having gas failure devices fitted to all the burners on the cooker. The oven and grill have one but the hob does not. The original surveyor (at time of purchase who did the RCD paperwork) has said that it was not compulsory, which the current surveyor disagrees with. I am inclined to believe him because that’s what the boat safety lit says.

 

Does anyone know the answer?

 

Tim

[Nightwatch]

Hi

My belief is, if you install a replacement cooker into your boat it has to have the flame safe device. If your existing cooker is pre this mod then it is acceptable.

 

I stand to be corrected though.

 

Martyn

[Machpoint005]

Hi

My belief is, if you install a replacement cooker into your boat it has to have the flame safe device. If your existing cooker is pre this mod then it is acceptable.

 

I stand to be corrected though.

 

Martyn

Correct - according to my last BSS inspection. It's something to be aware of, but it's not a failure if the cooker/hob is sufficently old not to have a flame safe whanger.

[bottle]

27 a) LPG and liquid-fuel burning appliances installed from

3 January 2000

All burners and pilot lights shall be fitted with a device that

automatically shuts off the fuel supply if the burner flame fails.

LPG and liquid-fuel burning appliances installed before

3 January 2000

Burners on catalytic appliances, appliances with continuously burning

flames and pilot light burners shall be fitted with a

device that automatically shuts off the fuel supply if the burner fails

 

From the BSS available here BSS Guide, section 8.

 

Edit: to add link

Edited July 29, 2010 by bottle

[RobinJ]

This has always been a bit of an arguement!

27 a) LPG and liquid-fuel burning appliances installed from

3 January 2000

All burners and pilot lights shall be fitted with a device that

automatically shuts off the fuel supply if the burner flame fails.

LPG and liquid-fuel burning appliances installed before

3 January 2000

Burners on catalytic appliances, appliances with continuously burning

flames and pilot light burners shall be fitted with a

device that automatically shuts off the fuel supply if the burner fails

So when was it fitted, it has to be pre 2000!

Second and obscure one, is the boat Petrol powered, BSS exmainers will generally be more stringent if it is!

So how long do you stand in front of the cooker boiling the kettle?

Unlike an oven, the burners on a hob are generally on for a short period of time. Technically, therefore, are not required to have flame failure, however if there are a lot of cassarole pans around or the location of the hob is clearly such that it cannot be observed closely, then you may be asking for trouble!

[WotEver]

... however if there are a lot of cassarole pans around or the location of the hob is clearly such that it cannot be observed closely, then you may be asking for trouble!

Even a casserole doesn't cook "continuously".

 

Tony

[bottle]

Technically, therefore, are not required to have flame failure

 

I must be dim, stupid cannot understand the written word or some other mental problem.

 

Where is the technicality

 

I read it as, if the appliance is fitted before 3rd January 2000, FFD not required

 

fitted after 3rd January 2000 FFD required.

 

It is so simple where is the discussion/argument/technicality..

[Tim Doran]

I just needed to check as two BSS officers claim different things. I phoned the safety office and they confirmed that it must have flame failure devices.

 

Tim

[WotEver]

Technically, therefore, are not required to have flame failure

 

I must be dim, stupid cannot understand the written word or some other mental problem.

 

Where is the technicality

 

I read it as, if the appliance is fitted before 3rd January 2000, FFD not required

 

fitted after 3rd January 2000 FFD required.

 

It is so simple where is the discussion/argument/technicality..

That's exactly as I inderstand it too, Keith. Before we replaced our cooker the old one had no FFD but passed every BSC it went in for. Now we have a new cooker it has FFDs, so I expect that also to pass.

 

Tony

[bottle]

I just needed to check as two BSS officers claim different things. I phoned the safety office and they confirmed that it must have flame failure devices.

 

Tim

 

Tim

 

I understand that, it was just some of the posts after yours that hit a nerve, I think you now know that one of the 'officers' was wrong.

 

Perhaps he needs to be informed of his mistake or reported to the appropriate authority. (I would go for the first one )

[Rob@BSSOffice]

I just needed to check as two BSS officers claim different things. I phoned the safety office and they confirmed that it must have flame failure devices.

 

Tim

 

Tim,

Your OP does not mention the decision as linked to the BSS, rather it was a surveyor working on RCD issues.

 

If however the person was a BSS examiner, carrying out BSS work, please call Phil Rickett at the BSS Office. You spoke to him yesterday. Please explain the circumstances and Phil will be able to take that forward.

Many thanks

Rob@BSS Office

[blackrose]

Whether FFDs on all burners of all replacement gas appliances are compulsory or not I don't know, but I think it's kind of missing the point...

 

Which is:

 

Why on earth would anyone NOT want FFDs on their gas appliances? Since there are plenty of gas appliances on the market with these safety devices, why would you fit an appliance that doesn't have them?

[Artimis]

DOmestic sized 4 burner hobs with FSD, with jets to screw in to convert from nat gas to LPG for sale now in B&Q for @ £100.

 

Whats not to like? Why argue and hang on to an old potentially unsafe hob?

Edited August 1, 2010 by Artimis

[alan_fincher]

DOmestic sized 4 burner hobs with FSD, with jets to screw in to convert from nat gas to LPG for sale now in B&Q for @ £100.

 

Whats not to like? Why argue and hang on to an old potentially unsafe hob?

"Domestic sized" can be the issue.

 

They will not fit a typical narrow boat, if it's work surfaces are standard 600mm ones, but pushed back under the gunwales.

 

Most of these hobs are 50 cms deep, and they will not fit in a typical narrowboat configuration.

 

Might be OK in a "U" shaped kitchen, though, if not trying to put in work units running along the length of the boat.

[paulcatchpole]

They will not fit a typical narrow boat, if it's work surfaces are standard 600mm ones, but pushed back under the gunwales.

 

We've gone for a normal domestic hob, and oven, mounted into a central-corridor kitchen, with normal 600-deep worksurface:

 

 

Goes in a bit like this:

 

 

 

PC

[alan_fincher]

We've gone for a normal domestic hob, and oven, mounted into a central-corridor kitchen, with normal 600-deep worksurface:

You presumably have not tucked your 600 mm work-surfaces right under the gunwales, and instead have a narrower corridor down the middle ?

 

Our gunwales cover 10 cms of the 60 cms work surface, so as that is only 50 cms visible, clearly you cannot accommodate a 50 cms deep hob in it.

 

Hopefully something very fireproof has gone behind and to the side of your hob, as normally instructions specify considerable clearances required.

 

I'm not saying you can't do it as you have, but I think most boats opt for the wider corridor, and hence work-surfaces too narrow to accommodate a standard domestic size.

 

We, unfortunately, could only find the very basic "Spinflo" caravanning type hob. If you look at the show boats in glossy magazines many use this very basic hob in the midst of much fancier equipment - presumably for the reasons I have stated.

[ChrisPy]

The relevant ISO PD5482 section 14.2 gives advice on the proximity of combustible materials.

Zone I extends 150mm radius from the centre of the burner from the burner level upwards for a height of 500mm.

Zone II extends 300mm for a height of 700mm.

— Free-hanging curtains or other fabrics should not be fitted in Zone I and Zone II, or enter into these

zones when released from any openable retaining device.

— Exposed materials installed in Zone I should be glass, ceramics, aluminium, ferrous metals, or other

materials with similar fireproof characteristics, or be thermally insulated.

— Exposed materials installed in Zone II should be glass, ceramics, metal or other materials with similar

fireproof characteristics, or be thermally insulated from the supporting substrate to prevent combustion

of the substrate, if the surface temperature exceeds 80 °C.

 

I doubt if the installation shown in the photo would comply.

 

The ISO is RCD requirement, but it is also good practice.

[paulcatchpole]

The relevant ISO PD5482 section 14.2 gives advice on the proximity of combustible materials.

Zone I extends 150mm radius from the centre of the burner from the burner level upwards for a height of 500mm.

Zone II extends 300mm for a height of 700mm.

— Free-hanging curtains or other fabrics should not be fitted in Zone I and Zone II, or enter into these

zones when released from any openable retaining device.

— Exposed materials installed in Zone I should be glass, ceramics, aluminium, ferrous metals, or other

materials with similar fireproof characteristics, or be thermally insulated.

— Exposed materials installed in Zone II should be glass, ceramics, metal or other materials with similar

fireproof characteristics, or be thermally insulated from the supporting substrate to prevent combustion

of the substrate, if the surface temperature exceeds 80 °C.

 

I doubt if the installation shown in the photo would comply.

 

The ISO is RCD requirement, but it is also good practice.

 

Indeed as you say, not a requirement for our old boat, although certainly best practice. I suspect that ISO is stricter than the MIs for this kit too, and the MIs take precedence in almost all circumstances don't they?

 

Also our piccies above were mid-build, and it's not finished yet - there's heat-resistant board (insulating *something* anyway) to go in around it - particularly with a solid fuel stove to go in on the other side of the wall from that oven. The 'thermally insulated' should cover us in the two 'exposed materials' reqs above, and there's no window behind it.

 

Cheer up, I'm sure there's worse out there, Chris...

 

PC

 

(And don't get me going on this stove-fitting CoP either... I haven't enough time in my life for air gaps and industrial plinths... )

[dor]

You presumably have not tucked your 600 mm work-surfaces right under the gunwales, and instead have a narrower corridor down the middle ?

Although I have a slot-in Spinflo cooker, I was more concerned about the depth of the sink and having space for the tap.

 

So, on one side my 600mm worktop goes up to the gunwale rather than under it, but the other side is cut down so that the gap between is maintained.