"diesel"

[magnetman]

Following on from the diesel heater thread.

 

Some boatyards sell Gas Oil as 'red diesel'. There is a difference, to do with sulphur content and other things which can have a dramatic impact on the useability of certain installed systems.

 

 

Would this apparently incorrect description come under the trades descriptions act?

 

 

Just a thought as it does seem to confuse a lot of people.

[Albert Smith]

Gas Oil (also known as DERV), is taxed at a higher rate than Red Diesel. If it were possible to purchase Gas Oil at the same price as Red Diesel, the seller would be seriously out of pocket

[Athy]

Gas Oil (also known as DERV), is taxed at a higher rate than Red Diesel. If it were possible to purchase Gas Oil at the same price as Red Diesel, the seller would be seriously out of pocket

 

Albert, is it the Ruddle's Bitter clouding my view, or has I.K. Brunel on your avatar turned round since yesterday?

[Derek R.]

Maybe, depends exactly what said boatyard is claiming.

 

I put some links on another thread that lead to fuel details HERE. As Andrew says, it's content that differs, and some heating devices do not like the higher sulphur content of the lower grades such as gas oil, though in essence it is the same distillate from crude.

 

Derek

 

Albert, is it the Ruddle's Bitter clouding my view, or has I.K. Brunel on your avatar turned round since yesterday?

 

No, just the cigar has moved from one side to the other.

[Albert Smith]

Albert, is it the Ruddle's Bitter clouding my view, or has I.K. Brunel on your avatar turned round since yesterday?

 

You are quite correct, the old boy was facing the wrong way. Being a bit of a stickler for everything being 'correct', I had no alternative other than have him face east

 

Athy, your powers of observation are quite formidable

 

Albert.

[nb Innisfree]

Correct me if I am wrong but as I see it many years ago road diesel and gas oil were the same except for red dye added to white road diesel which turned it into gas oil. White road diesel then was called DERV (DieselEnginedRoadVehicle) As time went by white diesel was improved until today we have Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) for road use while the old road diesel, DERV, in the guise of gas oil stayed the same. So I suppose the term DERV could still be applied to gas oil? No?

[Rojo]

Gas Oil and diesel were always considered to be the same thing when I worked in industry.

I have just copied and pasted the following from the website of a fuel distribution company;-

 

 

Red diesel is also known as gas oil, 35 seconds, medium diesel, heating oil, tractor diesel, cherry, generator fuel, digger fuel and many more.

 

 

Whatever you call Red Diesel, Crown Oil can supply you with it where you want it, when you want it.

 

 

Red Diesel is used by our industrial, commercial, agricultural and construction customers in a wide variety of uses from heating right through to tower cranes, excavators, diggers, tractors etc.

 

 

Call now on 0845 313 0845

Red diesel is the low duty form of diesel and can be used in off road untaxed vehicles i.e. agricultural/industrial/construction machinery and as home heating only.

 

 

Using red diesel for other purposes is against the law.

 

 

Red diesel is minimally taxed and can not be used as automotive diesel fuel.

 

Customs and Excise regulations require minimally taxed diesel to have a special red dye. This way the inspectors can quickly and conclusively identify the presence of red diesel and take appropriate action against the offender.

 

For Red Diesel Suppliers - Call now on 0845 313 0845

[Derek R.]

Gas Oil (also known as DERV), is taxed at a higher rate than Red Diesel. If it were possible to purchase Gas Oil at the same price as Red Diesel, the seller would be seriously out of pocket

 

Fuel for Diesel Engined Road Vehicles (DERV) is indeed taxed at a higher rate. 'Red' diesel is the same stuff with a dye added for the benefit of HM Customs and Excise to identify a fuel intended for plant, farm, or marine being used illegally in any road vehicle (other than agricultural). Gas Oil, is basically the same fuel, but lower down the distillate ladder than the Very Low Sulphur fuels. The links through the previous post may assist understanding. Then along comes Brussells and reverses the derogation on Red for pleasure purposes, so we end up with a right palava.

 

Derek

 

A not unattached fact, but Paraffin also comes in two grades. Some will claim that only the better (more expensive) grade be used in room heaters. This is due to the extra low sulphur content producing an exhaust that needs no external flue. However, for generations Paraffin has been available in one grade as far as I can remember "Burns wi'out smell . ." , and it's that grade I use with no ill effects - neither on burners or health. "Low tar cigarettes that will not damage your lungs" Okaay . . . and yes, I can smell it's Paraffin.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Derek R.

[nb Innisfree]

Gas Oil and diesel were always considered to be the same thing when I worked in industry.

I have just copied and pasted the following from the website of a fuel distribution company;-

 

 

Red diesel is also known as gas oil, 35 seconds, medium diesel, heating oil, tractor diesel, cherry, generator fuel, digger fuel and many more.

 

 

Whatever you call Red Diesel, Crown Oil can supply you with it where you want it, when you want it.

 

 

Red Diesel is used by our industrial, commercial, agricultural and construction customers in a wide variety of uses from heating right through to tower cranes, excavators, diggers, tractors etc.

 

 

Call now on 0845 313 0845

Red diesel is the low duty form of diesel and can be used in off road untaxed vehicles i.e. agricultural/industrial/construction machinery and as home heating only.

 

 

Using red diesel for other purposes is against the law.

 

 

Red diesel is minimally taxed and can not be used as automotive diesel fuel.

 

Customs and Excise regulations require minimally taxed diesel to have a special red dye. This way the inspectors can quickly and conclusively identify the presence of red diesel and take appropriate action against the offender.

 

For Red Diesel Suppliers - Call now on 0845 313 0845

 

Road diesel and gas oil are two different things now though ultra low sulphur gas oil is probably starting to appear on the market which is probably the same as modern road diesel.

They seem to suggest gas oil is just road diesel with dye added which is usually untrue.

[luctor et emergo]

As far I I know, most transport fuel depots will mark the road diesel as either 'Diesel' or DERV on the pump, and the Red Diesel for the fridges as 'Gas Oil'.

[NB Alnwick]

As far I I know, most transport fuel depots will mark the road diesel as either 'Diesel' or DERV on the pump, and the Red Diesel for the fridges as 'Gas Oil'.

 

I doubt if any of it contains Diesel - he jumped (or was pushed) overboard from a Great Eastern Railway passenger ferry whilst crossing the north sea in 1913.

 

The proper term should be 'fuel oil' because that is what it is. The fuel that Rudolf was planning to use was extracted from peanuts!

[Athy]

A pity that it no longer costs peanuts!

Your Pedant Of The Day award is on its way, Mr. A.

[magnetman]

Edited May 19, 2010 by magnetman

[Hairy-Neil]

The fuel that Rudolf was planning to use was extracted from peanuts!

 

I understand he also experimented with liquified coal dust. We call them 'diesels' because Dr Diesel devised the way of injecting the fuel at high pressure, directly into the cylinders.

[Derek R.]

I doubt if any of it contains Diesel - he jumped (or was pushed) overboard from a Great Eastern Railway passenger ferry whilst crossing the north sea in 1913.

 

The proper term should be 'fuel oil' because that is what it is. The fuel that Rudolf was planning to use was extracted from peanuts!

 

Exactly, and after engraving my fuel caps with those words, was refused a BSS because it had to read Diesel! Well, not actually refused, as the examiner carried stick on 'Diesel' labels for just such cases, and we passed.

 

I wonder if Ackroyd Stuart was catching up with him? Fortunes resting on such small differences. The engine used fuel oil under compression, only the method of introducing it into the combustion chamber was different. Perhaps it should have been called a 'Stuart', with later added fuel injection by 'Diesel' injector.

 

Derek

[furnessvale]

<SNIP)

Whatever you call Red Diesel, Crown Oil can supply you with it where you want it, when you want it.

<SNIP>

 

That's strange. When I was working Alton, Crown refused to sell to me because it was a narrowboat. The had several bad experiences of drivers turning up to try and fill boats through a standard filler and the drivers refused to do anymore.

 

I explained that, as I was a dealer, I wanted 2500 litres through a 6inch wide neck into a bulk tank , all to no avail.

 

Never mind, Watsons, Carlton and CPL would all supply, so Crown lost out on many thousands of litres of business.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[soldthehouse]

Gas Oil (also known as DERV), is taxed at a higher rate than Red Diesel. If it were possible to purchase Gas Oil at the same price as Red Diesel, the seller would be seriously out of pocket

Not exactly being a stickler for everything being correct here I'm afraid, Gas Oil is not also known as Derv. they are at the two opposing ends of the duty ratings.

[J R]

Following on from the diesel heater thread.

 

Some boatyards sell Gas Oil as 'red diesel'. There is a difference, to do with sulphur content and other things which can have a dramatic impact on the useability of certain installed systems.

 

 

Would this apparently incorrect description come under the trades descriptions act?

 

 

Just a thought as it does seem to confuse a lot of people.

 

I have been told by the local boatyard that the 'red' diesel they are selling is the ULS stuff you get from a petrol/diesel out let as in white fuel, except it is dyed red for HMRC purposes. It was also said that they cannot get the high sulphur red diesel anymore as only ULS diesel can now be supplied, (EU regulations), which also has a proportion of bio fuel added as does road fuel.

 

Has anyone else heard that this is now the case for fuel supplied by boatyards and what effect does it have on our engines etc.

[Tony Brooks]

I have been told by the local boatyard that the 'red' diesel they are selling is the ULS stuff you get from a petrol/diesel out let as in white fuel, except it is dyed red for HMRC purposes. It was also said that they cannot get the high sulphur red diesel anymore as only ULS diesel can now be supplied, (EU regulations), which also has a proportion of bio fuel added as does road fuel.

 

Has anyone else heard that this is now the case for fuel supplied by boatyards and what effect does it have on our engines etc.

 

 

I've known that was coming but did not know the EU reg. was mandatory yet.

 

The slightly higher cetane rating over some gas oils means some engines will produce marginally less diesel knock (the typical diesel noise). The lower sulphur content will hopefully reduce the acids in the sump oil from piston blow by.

 

I am sure lubricant additives will have been added at the refinery if required.

 

The bio-content is low at the moment so will probably have little effect but:

 

Bio will strip gums, varnishes and dirt from the tank and system and the percentage is set to increase so older boats might occasionally run into blocked filters, but at the moment I suspect they will not and by the time we get to 10% or 20% bio I trust much of the cleaning will be done.

 

Bio will absorb water so it might be a good idea for older boats to use a biocide additive like Marine 16 unless they have been using that or a water removing one for several years. It would also be a good idea if older boats that have not been using such an additive to suck as much crud and water as they can from the bottom of their tanks. The problem with dissolving water is that it produces a greater surface area of water molecules for bug to breed on.

 

The one thing I am not clear on is how the bio component will react to long term storage in vented tanks. I understand that it tend to oxidise and deteriorate but we will have to wait and see just how much this effects the engines and systems at the start of the year's boating for those who laid up for the winter.

 

Personally I am fairly relaxed about the bio content at the moment.

[NB Alnwick]

I understand he also experimented with liquified coal dust. We call them 'diesels' because Dr Diesel devised the way of injecting the fuel at high pressure, directly into the cylinders.

 

There were several experiments around the same time with coal dust - of course in those day we had a massive surplus of the stuff. The most effective was the production of a fuel that comprised a mix of coal dust and shale oil (later paraffin or heavy oil were used).

 

This was known as 'Colloidal Fuel' and it was used for a while on heavy freight locomotives - the mixture being injected into the firebox with steam. The fuel was eventually abandoned on the railways because it required specialised staff, maintenance and refuelling facilities which were available at only a few depots and this restricted the universal route availability of the engines that had been converted to burn it. 'Colloidal Fuel' was used to much better effect on merchant ships especially during the First World War and its use meant that the more expensive imported bunker oil could be reserved for the latest warships.

 

I've known that was coming but did not know the EU reg. was mandatory yet.

 

The slightly higher cetane rating over some gas oils means some engines will produce marginally less diesel knock (the typical diesel noise). The lower sulphur content will hopefully reduce the acids in the sump oil from piston blow by.

 

I am sure lubricant additives will have been added at the refinery if required.

 

The bio-content is low at the moment so will probably have little effect but:

 

Bio will strip gums, varnishes and dirt from the tank and system and the percentage is set to increase so older boats might occasionally run into blocked filters, but at the moment I suspect they will not and by the time we get to 10% or 20% bio I trust much of the cleaning will be done.

 

Bio will absorb water so it might be a good idea for older boats to use a biocide additive like Marine 16 unless they have been using that or a water removing one for several years. It would also be a good idea if older boats that have not been using such an additive to suck as much crud and water as they can from the bottom of their tanks. The problem with dissolving water is that it produces a greater surface area of water molecules for bug to breed on.

 

The one thing I am not clear on is how the bio component will react to long term storage in vented tanks. I understand that it tend to oxidise and deteriorate but we will have to wait and see just how much this effects the engines and systems at the start of the year's boating for those who laid up for the winter.

 

Personally I am fairly relaxed about the bio content at the moment.

 

I think the bigger problem will come where boats are left for long periods, between cruises, with the fuel tank half empty.

[alan_fincher]

I have been told by the local boatyard that the 'red' diesel they are selling is the ULS stuff you get from a petrol/diesel out let as in white fuel, except it is dyed red for HMRC purposes. It was also said that they cannot get the high sulphur red diesel anymore as only ULS diesel can now be supplied, (EU regulations), which also has a proportion of bio fuel added as does road fuel.

 

Has anyone else heard that this is now the case for fuel supplied by boatyards and what effect does it have on our engines etc.

Not correct yet, I believe.

 

The lower sulphur content in dyed gas oil seems to become mandatory on 1st Jan 2011, (or at least several different web-sites say that).

 

It is correct that suppliers may just choose to put red dye in standard "white" ULS DERV.

 

This will also mean the increased bio-diesel content some have referred to, meaning the likelihood of nasties growing in your tank will be increased, particularly if you don't use it fairly rapidly.

[RLWP]

There were several experiments around the same time with coal dust - of course in those day we had a massive surplus of the stuff. The most effective was the production of a fuel that comprised a mix of coal dust and shale oil (later paraffin or heavy oil were used).

 

This was known as 'Colloidal Fuel' and it was used for a while on heavy freight locomotives - the mixture being injected into the firebox with steam. The fuel was eventually abandoned on the railways because it required specialised staff, maintenance and refuelling facilities which were available at only a few depots and this restricted the universal route availability of the engines that had been converted to burn it. 'Colloidal Fuel' was used to much better effect on merchant ships especially during the First World War and its use meant that the more expensive imported bunker oil could be reserved for the latest warships.

 

 

 

I think the bigger problem will come where boats are left for long periods, between cruises, with the fuel tank half empty.

 

There were other experiments on the GER in the 1890's on locomotive fuelling using some by-products of carriage lighting IIRC.

 

Petrolea?

 

Richard

[Derek R.]

(snipped)

The one thing I am not clear on is how the bio component will react to long term storage in vented tanks. I understand that it tend to oxidise and deteriorate but we will have to wait and see just how much this effects the engines and systems at the start of the year's boating for those who laid up for the winter.

 

Personally I am fairly relaxed about the bio content at the moment.

 

I would be fairly relaxed about a bullet in the breech provided it was not aimed at me. We have a situation that is purely politically motivated. The fascist like regime that drives the environmental movement have great power. Not only are the physical benefits to the global environment unknown, so too are the effects of these moves to 'reduce' pollution - except in one area: The Bio in bio-diesel may come from different crop sources. In almost every case, that removes land from growing food. It's almost embarrassing to say, but one third of all food products purchased in this country end up in landfill - 500million tons of it annually, whereas in poverty stricken countries food is removed from the table to produce bio-diesel. You may think that the farmers get paid to purchase more food - not necessarily so. In Haiti, mud pies (an almost non-existent source of nutritional content but with nothing else to eat . .) had their prices doubled overnight due to the demand to produce bio-fuels.

 

The link takes one to Caterpillar's extract from their fuel recommendation pdf. With regard to bio-content pages 54 & 55 are relevant - see 'recommendations'. There are acceptable limits, but also cautions and a need to observe for possible problems with seals, pipes, and filters.

 

Caterpillar LINK.

 

Derek

Edited May 20, 2010 by Derek R.