waiting at locks

[Naughty Cal]

I really would like to see you work a full length narrow-boat through a flight of narrow locks without touching anything at any point.

 

Particularly if it's one of the flights where weirs draw off water sharply to one side at the top, and deposit it back in as a 90 degree cross wash immediately on the lock approach at the bottom.

 

If you can manage not to touch any masonry ever, you truly, truly must have mystic powers, and I'd pay to come and see your skills.

 

There is much mloaning on this forum of "fake working boats/crews" causing damage to the infastructure of the canal system through speeding or dropping paddles, yet many of you see fit to drive into lock walls/banks/other boats also causing damage. Something not quite right there.

[barge sara]

With locks (wide ones, we are too beamy for narrow ones) again she doesnt touch the walls. Going through the unmanned locks the OH drives her in i catch the ropes and the OH using the ropes and me using the paddles keeps her from touching the sides. It takes some time to find the right technique for each crew and each boat but the worst touching of banks we have yet managed has been with fenders.

 

You are absolutely right and with 3 tons of GRP it can and should be done that way.

I would like to see you perform the same trick with 25 tonnes of steel on the other end of the ropes!

[alan_fincher]

There is much mloaning on this forum of "fake working boats/crews" causing damage to the infastructure of the canal system through speeding or dropping paddles, yet many of you see fit to drive into lock walls/banks/other boats also causing damage. Something not quite right there.

I can only assume you are continuing to be deliberately provocative, because I'm sure you are not actually as daft as some of your posts come across!

 

Locks were designed to be rubbed against in some circumstances. That's why many have things in the side called "rubbing stones". The clue is in the name, if you still don't get it.

 

Note I'm saying "contacted", or "rubbed against", not motored into at ramming speed, just in case you still haven't got it.

 

If you seriously believe you could get a 70 foot boat up (say) a full flight of locks on the Shroppie, never rubbing the edges, or never touching a gate, it can only be because you have never tried it.

 

It's a different sport from bobbing around in a lightweight cruiser with inflated balloons dangled over the edges - trust us on this one!

[magpie patrick]

There is much mloaning on this forum of "fake working boats/crews" causing damage to the infastructure of the canal system through speeding or dropping paddles, yet many of you see fit to drive into lock walls/banks/other boats also causing damage. Something not quite right there.

 

Phylis, you don't get it, we're not clobbering things, but touching is almost inevitable. As you say, your boat is too beamy for a narrow lock, meaning i guess you never go through locks less than 6 feet wider than your boat, whereas Ripple, in the bottom lock at Hurleston, actually touches BOTH sides! One lock on the Ashtead flight has an alignment so awkward that the only way Ripple could leave was to catch the masony bridge, her left hand (port) side was in contact with the canal wall while the right hand (starboard) side hand rail scraped the bridge, judging by the paint marks she wasn't the first boat to do this.

 

And I agree with Sara, accepting that boats will touch the bank and each other is no excuse for playing bumper cars as you down the canal, but that's not what most of us are doing

[GeoffS]

Quite a few hire boats now come with them, and they are in fact often much used.

 

I realise it's ot necessarily true that their crews could not manage without, but much of the time they are not trying to.

 

I actually find it a worrying trend, after a Wyvern Shipping crew recently used one to deflect their bows straight at us, when we had previously been set up to pass them at just the right distance. :lol:

 

Had the same experience with a Wyvern boat last weekend, I should imagine that by their return this Friday there will be a burnt out bowthruster!

[Hairy-Neil]

and you don't take your boat through locks only a couple of inches wider (and only a few inches longer) than your boat

 

And sometimes narrower than the boat....

 

Bringing Nuneaton & Brighton up the Stratford Canal around 10 years ago we reached the notorious narrow lock towards the top of Widcombe flight. The lockie advised us to remove the cross planks and pull the chains in as far as we could, and then take a good run at it......

 

He also advised us that we'd probably jam in the bridge a little way above the flight, and to take a good run at that one too... We did, and still got stuck. Had to get an american on a Stratford Court Cruisers boat had to ram us through.....

[barge sara]

Copyright Paul Glazzard and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

 

I wonder if this one ever touches the sides?

Nah. A couple of ropes and judicious control of a paddle. Should be fine....

[magpie patrick]

Copyright Paul Glazzard and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

 

I wonder if this one ever touches the sides?

Nah. A couple of ropes and judicious control of a paddle. Should be fine....

 

 

I hope that lock is not too deep, the bridge is wider than the ship!

[Naughty Cal]

Copyright Paul Glazzard and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

 

I wonder if this one ever touches the sides?

Nah. A couple of ropes and judicious control of a paddle. Should be fine....

 

By the looks it isnt touching the side

[barge sara]

By the looks it isnt touching the side

 

Believe me, when the wind is blowing up the Humber, they touch.

Despite having a thruster on each corner.

[Guest]

Copyright Paul Glazzard and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

 

I wonder if this one ever touches the sides?

Nah. A couple of ropes and judicious control of a paddle. Should be fine....

 

Dumbo edit....

 

Seems I wasn't as dumb as I thought - It is one of the P&O ships after all.

 

Will be going through that lock in a few weeks on our way to France via Belgium.....

Edited May 26, 2010 by MJG

[alan_fincher]

Copyright Paul Glazzard and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.

 

I wonder if this one ever touches the sides?

Is that one of those "East West Marine" boats, then ?

 

(It seems to have the characteristic cabin profile! )

[mykaskin]

I hope that lock is not too deep, the bridge is wider than the ship!

 

The drop can be as much as about 9m, so in the scale of things not really deep.

 

25.4m Pride of York width (P&O)

 

25.5 m King George Lock Max Vessel Dimension (ABP)

 

26m Width of lock, top coping stones (Google Earth measurement)

 

So I'd say they have far more distance to play with than a narrowboat in a narrow lock! :-)

 

Mike

 

ps. They actually reverse in to the lock when entering the dock as it's easier to control, here is Pride of Bruge getting ready to turn taken from the top deck of the Pride Of Hull:

 

[FadeToScarlet]

Neither of which should really be happening

 

That's not quite true. If you're taking a boat that's 6'10 wide into a lock that's 7' wide, you will rub and bump. It is impossible not to.

 

But, as Chertsey said, there is a difference between accepting the odd rub or bump, which the boats and infrastructure are designed to take, and driving about at full speed crashing willy-nilly into everything, which no-one sensible would ever do. Yes, some people down your way might well have done just that. I've had my boat smashed into Fotheringay Bridge, and damaged the cabin corner, and whilst with MoominPapa we hit a dayboat that decided to swerve dead in front of us. But those are freak events that happen rarely happen, and are different to the norm.

 

Surely you can see the difference? I've siad it, Chertsey and Alan Fincher and several other posters have said it...

 

Have a look at this:

. Note how there are a few minor bumps- but no major smashing-headlong-into-stationary-solid-objects. Edited May 26, 2010 by FadeToScarlet

[Tiny]

As much as I love the Shroppie, I'm pleased we moor on a comparatively quiet canal. On our way back to the mooring last week, we did seem to meet alot of new boaters. I don't really get narked about slowness at all, it's safety. Anyway, by the time we get up and set off to boat, eveyone has long ago finished and tied up.

 

Four out of five of the hire crews we met left their windlasses on the paddle gear and walked away. Another boat the crew were all wearing sturdy flip flops - one went down the ladder to get back on his boat in the lock and stepped onto the bows backwards - the boat was about three feet behind the ladder. He nearly went in.

 

Re : leaving the windless on the gear we have found that most hirers don't know it is dangerous and once its explained that it can be they remove it. (We can always tell the story of the much bandaged lady who had head and 3 ribs broken by a windless she had left on that swung round rather quickly. We met this lass her having just been exrayed, strapped and then returned to the lock by taxi - but her boat hadn't waited (nice) and was moored a couple of miles up the cut. It was lucky we remembered it!)

 

Hire crews we tell but share crews and privates - especially males of middle age and over - we find don't like to be told and most won't take off the windless and often turn really nasty to the wife (who is past the 12,000 in locks now) as what does she know.

 

The most annoying are BW men who, when leaving the windless on, act like you are in the wrong to tell expert old them. Often these guys are summer keepers who seem oblivious to how their particular locks operate having got the standard BW training (whatever that is) which must include very little on paddle winding and windless safety.

 

 

 

[Tiny]

I'll second that! I've yet to see a hire boater that couldn't manage without a bow thruster.....

 

I have been rammed head on by a share boat using her bow thruster. This lady (who may have been on medication) was boating slowly along very close to a line of moored boats as though expecting one to rush out on deck, unmoor and leave - non did. That put her on the wrong side as I approached - she seeming to be totally oblivious to me. Then, with me slowed, as she seemed not with it - and set up to pass well off her, she suddenly swings the tiller, slaps on the power and heads diagonally across my front. I judge she will be just on the correct side and adjust to pass well off her as she crosses me at which point she hits full bow thruster swinging back at speed to ram my near stopped boat head on. (Or not quite head on so she can rake the front fender chains off, cause dent etc.) Finally stopping she is only feet away and totally not there to my yells and friendly suggestions and slaps the power and bow thruster back on crossing behind me to resume her boating along the line of moored boats.

 

 

 

I think we all accept (with the possible exception of Phylis ), that on the inland waterways we will from time to time touch either the infrastructure or other boats. It's unavoidable.

 

What makes me cringe is the gungho type who excuses really poor boat handling with "It is a contact sport you know!" and proceeds to knock seven bells out of everything as he ricochets down the cut.

It may not be a problem to a welded steel narrowboat, but doesn't do the rest of us any good, whether its Phylis' tupp GRP or our relatively fragile riveted steel hull.

 

 

Moored near a hire base (300 yards away) I exchanged insults with one trainer who was telling first timers to use a moored boat to pivort on. We shoved him away from ours so he used the next which was unoccupied to demonstrate the technique of full side contact plus tiller (and never an attempt to push off by hand).

[Nickhlx]

Moored near a hire base (300 yards away) I exchanged insults with one trainer who was telling first timers to use a moored boat to pivort on. We shoved him away from ours so he used the next which was unoccupied to demonstrate the technique of full side contact plus tiller (and never an attempt to push off by hand).

 

 

 

 

If I have understood that correctly, I would have probably not been able to avoid a conflict ! I am not usually a violent person, but I guess everyone has their limit, and I think that would have crossed mine - tantamount to mindless vandalism in my book.

 

Nick

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

There are a couple of locks on the southern Stratford where the gates wouldn't open quite fully, and I'm convinced Tawny Owl has a bit of a middle aged spread so can't get in without rubbing the gates, definitely a contact sport.

 

There is also a lock towards the top of the Lapworth flight where you touch (not hit) the side wall below the lock as you come out, before you are far enough out to turn the boat (well with a seventy foot anyway.)

 

Yes we consider boating a sport where contact happens, but should take place slowly if it can't be avoided.

 

As for hire boaters being unable to steer, Yes for the first mile or so on their first time out, but after that mostly they are fine, except when meeting a new difficult turn or manoeuvre for the first time, and didn't we all struggle then, and often still do.

 

The thing that worries me most about hire boaters is often the careless way they let their children all over the boat, on the roof, dangling legs off the side etc. while the boat is moving. As they get more experienced this behaviour seems to stop, and you see many less owner boats allowing this. I do hope it's not cos they found out the hard way.

 

Sue

[daves6guitars]

This point of view is often expressed in forums such as this. It is quite true that if you feel you need to rush then you are perhaps persuing the wrong past-time.

 

However, just because you want to go slowly is no reason to unreasonably slow down other people who are not rushing either, but see no point in having to wait unneccessarily to wait for ages whilst someone, either through ignorance or lack of awareness, are going ridiculously slowly.

 

None of us (hopefully) go out on the canals to rush from one place to another. Equally, I see no reason to have to hang around unneccessarily whilst someone fiddles around without any consideration for other canal users. There is a difference between rushing and being efficient, both on the canals and elsewhere. I recently watched someone receiving "training" on a helmsman's course in a lock on the Shroppie with less than 8ft rise. He was being instructed to open one paddle one turn at a time, then eventually to open the other paddle. As a result he took over 15 minutes to rise in a lock which normally takes about 5 minutes at most. Do you want to be bnehind tham going up the Audlem flight?

 

We don't want to rush; we do however want to get on with life. Are you happy to drive behind someone going down a lane at 10 mph (when there is no hazard)? Should we all travel up the motorway at 40 mph?

 

There is slow, then there is ridiculously slow.

 

Please don't accuse everyone who gets a bit frustrated being stuck behind someone going very slowly as being in the wrong place. Same goes for people who travel at tickover and won't let anyone pass them.

 

I've just been browsing and found your observations of the trainers at Audlem interesting. As relative newcomers to boating, we felt it sensible to undergo some ' proper tuition' even though we had had a fair few excursions on hire boats. Our trainer's emphasis was on safety first, as you would expect when trying to achieve a 'standard of proficiency'. His take on filling locks was 1 paddle half way up until the cill was under water then up with the rest and the other paddle. Half a turn does seem a bit extreme though. I would be loathe to blame the trainers, who lay themselves open to litigation if they give the incorrct tuition and someone has a nasty accident. How many of us drive our cars in the same way as they were taught. Very few I would imagine. The DSA set a standard for people to drive safely. When we pass our test, most of us settle in to a way of driving that we feel comfortable with, irrespective of what we've just been taught, and with less regard for safety than perhaps we should. I think the same applies to boating except that there are probably far fewer boaters who get what is deemed to be the 'right way to do it' before setting off down the cut. All of us at some time will carry out a manouevre or procedure that someone will find fault with....that's life I'm afraid

[sociable_hermit]

That was a very reasonable and balanced post.

 

Are you sure you're on the right forum?

[daves6guitars]

That was a very reasonable and balanced post.

 

Are you sure you're on the right forum?

Oh I can do unreasonable as well....and be unbalanced, especially after quiz night

[mayalld]

I've just been browsing and found your observations of the trainers at Audlem interesting. As relative newcomers to boating, we felt it sensible to undergo some ' proper tuition' even though we had had a fair few excursions on hire boats. Our trainer's emphasis was on safety first, as you would expect when trying to achieve a 'standard of proficiency'. His take on filling locks was 1 paddle half way up until the cill was under water then up with the rest and the other paddle.

 

Completely over the top!

 

Even in the fiercest of locks, one paddle halfway up until the surge subsides, and then slowly to fully open is quite adequate.

 

Oh and unless you are in a full length boat, the strictures about not lifting gate paddles until the lock is half full are too restrictive. Provided a baffle is fitted, it is safe to slowly start to open the gate paddle as soon as the ground paddle is up.

[dor]

I've just been browsing and found your observations of the trainers at Audlem interesting.

 

Just to ensure it is clear, the training I was referring to was on the Shroppie. It was not however at Audlem - I merely mentioned Audlem as it is a long flight where very slow paddle work would be less welcome.

[daves6guitars]

Completely over the top!

 

Even in the fiercest of locks, one paddle halfway up until the surge subsides, and then slowly to fully open is quite adequate.

 

Oh and unless you are in a full length boat, the strictures about not lifting gate paddles until the lock is half full are too restrictive. Provided a baffle is fitted, it is safe to slowly start to open the gate paddle as soon as the ground paddle is up.

 

 

I rest my case. Dont shoot the messenger, just relaying what our trainer told us ( if you want to take it up with him, he's in your neck of the woods!) As I said, once left to our own devices we do what we feel most comfortable with, what feels safe to one boater may terrify another. I'm happy now to rest the button on the gate and watch as it slides gently up, no forward surge even when going for a quick fill, then edge forward as it approaches full ready for a quick exit ( on narrow locks)

[Tiny]

Completely over the top!

 

Even in the fiercest of locks, one paddle halfway up until the surge subsides, and then slowly to fully open is quite adequate.

 

Oh and unless you are in a full length boat, the strictures about not lifting gate paddles until the lock is half full are too restrictive. Provided a baffle is fitted, it is safe to slowly start to open the gate paddle as soon as the ground paddle is up.

 

 

It depends on the lock and how its paddles work. On some you can wind a couple of turns and get thrown everywhere until the lock is nearly full. On others you can slowly wind all the paddles up and go up smoothly with little fore/back motion. The problem is that first time through you simple don't know what this lock will do. In general slow is safe though this might annoy the odd person waiting to come through (who often just wants you out the way before they do the lock (often slowly) not to damage their boat and get shouted at by the steerer.