Fore Cabins on restored boats - too high?

[Laurence Hogg]

I have noticed whilst studying in depth the Harefield images from 1961 that many of the boats have forecabins which seem much lower than those built today. Also none of them have front doors, just a hatch. Looking at some rebuilt ones, they are taller and often have front doors. On the FMC boats a large door opens into the hold and a three part angular strengthening bar is fitted above the door to presumably retain the integral strength of the bow.

 

[AMModels]

sorry for resurrecting this old topic, sadly the image is missing but; what were the differences in size between a typical FMC fore cabin and a Thos Clayton version?

 

The FMC cabin began much further forward presumably to allow more carrying space for bulk cargoes but on the oil boats they started further back giving pretty much the full width of the hull and what looks like 4-5ft of length out of the hold. With the Claytons boats when there wasn't a fore cabin fitted many still had what looks like a bulkhead at the point where a fore cabin would start and then another hatch, was this part of the oil tanks or for storage for the horses feed etc?

 

Claytons Fore cabin

 

http://www.shipshapenetwork.org.uk/data/nrhv/vessels/452_GIFFORD_10.jpg

 

FMC fore cabin

 

http://www.blisworth.org.uk/images/Payler%20Albums/FellowsMC/FMC%2018%20Minnow%20fore%20end%20Blisworth%202005.JPG

[David Mack]

On a boat carrying liquid cargo you can't stack up the load at the back end of the hold, to counteract the additional buoyancy of the unloaded cabin section. So it would make sense to have a section at the front of the boat which is also unloaded - otherwise the boat will be very much bow down. That space then lends itself to being a general storage area for horse feed etc., or use as a cabin to provide more accommodation.

 

But on a boat carrying dry cargo you would want to load as much as possible, and so the fore cabin ends up in the space that would otherwise be the fore deck.

 

I presume that one of the consequences is that a Clayton's fore cabin could be quite spacious inside, near full width and possibly with a full length bunk extending below the fore deck, whereas FMC fore cabins would be cramped, tapering into the bow, with only a short child-sized side bed.

 

Does anyone have any information on the internal layout of fore cabins?

[magpie patrick]

I can't answer that, except to say that the words "internal layout" might be an overstatement in the smallest ones! See Kildare with three other boats below (not my photo - waterways.org)

 

 

I think you'd struggle to do anything other than stand up in that!

 

The other three don't have a cabin at all, which is what I perceive, perhaps incorrectly, to be "the norm" - my recollection is that fore cabins were added for some minimum accommodation requirement under public health regulations, so why didn't more boats have them? Moving off topic further, my recollection is also that fore cabins were common on the broad boats of many northern canals, where the families didn't actually live aboard.

[AMModels]

I think FMC fore cabins were generally for childrens bedrooms by design but whether they were widely used as such I have no evidence. As you say MP it was part of the public health laws that specified a minimum cubage per person and a FC was the best answer seemingly. On the claytons boats they did seem to be more practical for use by an adult especially if as David says the cabin extended under the fore deck which as there is no hatch seems likely.

[springy]

It may also be relevant that Claytons forecabins were on horseboats, and the hayhole - the hatch in front of the forecabin was

used for feed storage, (Dane's forecabin is a later addition based on Gifford).

 

On a quick search I haven't found an image of an FMC horseboat (as opposed to one built as a butty boat) with a forecabin.

 

springy

[alan_fincher]

I'm sure there are recorded instances of children using the fore-cabins as a bedroom perishing due to the fumes from the crude stoves used to keep them warm, so little doubt they were put to this use, (and that there were inherent dangers).

 

I've always struggled to see how there is enough room for this on the shorter cabins, and it must only have been quite short children in there, I would have thought.

 

The picture Patrick has posted features (on the right) two "Grand Union" boats, and as these have a much bluffer bow, and a much shorter foredeck than a typical FMC, Barlows or Clayton's tar boat, it is hard to see how they could ever be so equipped. That said the "Royalty" camping boat "William" currently carries one, albeit not used as sleeping accommodation!

[FadeToScarlet]

In an FMC forecabin, at least the one in Ilford that I slept in, it's open right under the foredeck where the T stud is, so with my feet in the angle right behind the stem, I (5'6") could stretch out fully.

 

Ilford's cabin isn't fully fitted- it has a triangular bed the whole width, rather than a bunk- but if the original fittings allowed the.feet to go right to the stem, adults or taller children could sleep there.

 

Oh, if anyone else stays in a forecabin, make sure that if you open the slide for airing it out, close it before going up locks, or you have to sleep in a puddle!

[AMModels]

where would the stove sit FTS? As Alan says the cabins had one but in an FMC cabin I can only imagine how cramped it must have been and the potential for burns as well as asphyxiation.

 

Springy on the images Ive seen Claytons boats with a fore cabin dont tend to have a hatch in front of the cabin, you do see them with triangular constructions on the deck which were used to carry hay and feed for the horses as in this pic.

 

 

Gifford is the same.

 

I reckon the fore cabins are around 4ft long so if they did extend under the fore deck that could be as long as 8-9ft?

[Pluto]

I always liked this one at Sutton Level Lock, photographed in 1975.

[FadeToScarlet]

When I stayed in it, Ilford didn't have a stove in the forecabin, because of the full width bed, but i think that originally there would have been a small bottle stove on the right hand side on a shelf. Happy to be corrected if wrong though.

[alan_fincher]

On a quick search I haven't found an image of an FMC horseboat (as opposed to one built as a butty boat) with a forecabin.

 

springy

 

The newly published book "Care on The Cut" that was launched at Stoke Bruerne last weekend, (primarily about Sister Mary Ward), not only contains pictures of horse boats with front cabins, but also quite a bit of discussion of them. It includes passages quoted from Owen Llewellyn, a health inspector in the early 20th century, both where he describes he was not able to fit himself into one, but also the hazards associated with the fact that they could get heavy water ingress when a lock is filling - considerable concerns are expressed about their use as children's accommodation.

 

(The book, incidentally is about far more than Sister Mary Ward's care, as I am over 100 pages into it, and we are not yet at that part of the story!)

[TimYoung]

When we built Ilford's cabin we had nothing to base it on but photos.

We knew the length and where the the cross beam was. Anything else was extrapolation.

Please don't base anything precidential on our musings.

 

Tim

[Laurence Hogg]

where would the stove sit FTS? As Alan says the cabins had one but in an FMC cabin I can only imagine how cramped it must have been and the potential for burns as well as asphyxiation.

 

Springy on the images Ive seen Claytons boats with a fore cabin dont tend to have a hatch in front of the cabin, you do see them with triangular constructions on the deck which were used to carry hay and feed for the horses as in this pic.

 

 

Gifford is the same.

 

I reckon the fore cabins are around 4ft long so if they did extend under the fore deck that could be as long as 8-9ft?

 

If you look carefully at a higher res of the picture of "Jordan" you can see the lid edge, some boats had a much lighter lid to the bow space rather than the heavy types.

I think it unlikely any extended under the foredeck, certainly I have never seen evidence of this and you would compromise the strength of the foreward bulkhead. In FMC forcabins a massive strengthening beam was present to allow for the lack of the bulkhead, you can see this in may of the Harefield pictures.

 

You cannot really compare a tanker boat fore cabin with that of a conventional carrying craft.

The tankers had at least two stanks in the "hold" with a space in most cases between them and the cabin. This meant on a tanker you had a full width cabin option and more space. Also liquids in many cases are heavier than cargo so the full laden load was effectively smaller. On a conventional cabin boat you would not want a shortened hold hence the use of the bow.

 

The structures on the decks of Clayton boats had a variety of uses, from dunnage to a dog kennel and in some respects may portray the genesis for the common roof boxes of today!

[AMModels]

do you know the reason why Gifford is deck lid less Lawrence?

[springy]

I'm sure that about 12-15 years ago I had a look in Gifford's fore cabin, I've been trying to remember for certain, but I don't

think it extended into the fore end, though I can't be sure. However there are definitely images of Gifford showing no hatch/lid in the

foredeck.

 

Springy

[Laurence Hogg]

do you know the reason why Gifford is deck lid less Lawrence?

 

In short no, however she has been rebuilt several times so nothing is really as built. The Keays rebuild was a poor one as she certainly lost her distinctive bow shape then.

 

The TCO fore cabin is fairly unique in having a pair of doors at the front, other bow cabins did not or rarely had this feature, their access was from the hold. It does seem however that some of the TCO boats may not have had a front bulkhead as normal, the picture below shows a TCO boat wrecked on the Severn just above Kempsey in the late 1970's, you can see where the bow cabin was but no evidence is there of a fwd B/Head. This boat is a mystery as its name is at present unknown and it has since disappeared.

 

With the stanks present in a TCO boat the hull was actually very strong, this may have allowed the fwd B/head to be left out, the solid decking and supporting ribs would have made a strong structure. The stanks btw were a legal requirement as they separated the cargo B/head from being that of the living quarters.

 

This is the sad wreck which has no identity, fate is unknown too.

 

.

[AMModels]

Great pic, was that much framing in the bow normal on all wooden boats or could it have been a feature of the fore cabin? Using extra framing to give more strength in lieu of the bulkhead?

[Ray T]

I'm sure there are recorded instances of children using the fore-cabins as a bedroom perishing due to the fumes from the crude stoves used to keep them warm, so little doubt they were put to this use, (and that there were inherent dangers).

 

I've always struggled to see how there is enough room for this on the shorter cabins, and it must only have been quite short children in there, I would have thought.

 

The picture Patrick has posted features (on the right) two "Grand Union" boats, and as these have a much bluffer bow, and a much shorter foredeck than a typical FMC, Barlows or Clayton's tar boat, it is hard to see how they could ever be so equipped. That said the "Royalty" camping boat "William" currently carries one, albeit not used as sleeping accommodation!

 

Page 167 of "Care on the Cut" quotes " The use of fore cabins as places to sleep came to the fore-front of towpath news in April 1941 when Mrs Beechy found her 13 year old daughter Susan Agnes dead, her other daughter Clara unconscious and the family dog dead in the fore cabin of Gifford, a Thomas Clayton(Oldbury) Ltd boat.......... At the inquest it was announced that Agnes died from asphyxiation due to carbon monoxide poisoning from the fore cabin stove, her younger sister survived. After the tradgedy the family removed the fore-cabin stove and never used it again, as a dwelling."

 

There follows more on the use of fore cabins as dwelling places. A cut away drawing is illustrated with the narrative. This shows the bed athwart ships of the boat at the stern end of the cabin.

 

Also Painted Boats has a clip of Mary Smith in the fore cabin of Sunny Valley. A comment for some women boaters at the time was that they objected that there was no pillow case on the pillow, just bare tick - also gleaned from "Care on the Cut." page 196.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Ray T

[Derek R.]

I suspect the shots of 'Mary' in the forecabin were done in a studio. You would never have got the kind of bulky camera into a forecabin and had space to shoot!

 

A bed athwartships, and a small bottle stove would be my guess at content - and a whole load of rope curled round and round.

[Laurence Hogg]

Great pic, was that much framing in the bow normal on all wooden boats or could it have been a feature of the fore cabin? Using extra framing to give more strength in lieu of the bulkhead?

If you are talking about the framing under the deck then yes that was common to virtually all Butty / Horse boats. Nothing to do with a cabin.

[AMModels]

was it only on horse and butty boats then? I thought all boats had it to some extent?

[Laurence Hogg]

was it only on horse and butty boats then? I thought all boats had it to some extent?

Andy, please do your own research using available sources which would give you these answers instantly. The old books by like "Short history of the narrowboat" by Tom Chapiln have this info in and you don't need to ask this type of question here, you claim to have some knowledge of craft, please use it. Not wishing to sound harsh but researching answers and posting here takes valuable time up and I would rather concentrate on more difficult subjects which have no defined answers.

[Derek R.]

But such a forum is a collection of such research, and can often lead to greater knowledge spread amongst those who are interested - let alone already knowledgeable. It never harms to widen the field.

 

Fore end framing of PROGRESS (Chris Collins image)

 

and an iron Dutch Tjalk (stem post is left out of shot) This is the starboard quarter of the bow

Edited September 18, 2015 by Derek R.

[AMModels]

Andy, please do your own research using available sources which would give you these answers instantly. The old books by like "Short history of the narrowboat" by Tom Chapiln have this info in and you don't need to ask this type of question here, you claim to have some knowledge of craft, please use it. Not wishing to sound harsh but researching answers and posting here takes valuable time up and I would rather concentrate on more difficult subjects which have no defined answers.

In that case Laurence feel free to not answer any queries, there is such a wealth of knowledge here it would be foolish not to make enquiries in the forum, no one is forced to reply. Im not sure what the compiling of knowledge by anyone is for if it isnt to use and share?