2 cylinder semi diesel bolinder

[antarmike]

 

Can anyone tell me the differences and similarities of the Bolinder and the Widdup, hot bulb two cylinder boat engine. I had a twin cylinder Widdup with reversing gearbox, in my care for some time .

 

I had assumed that the Widdup was a licenced built copy, or simply a copy of the Bolinder, but was the widdup actually designed and built in Keithley?

[Timleech]

Can anyone tell me the differences and similarities of the Bolinder and the Widdup, hot bulb two cylinder boat engine. I had a twin cylinder Widdup with reversing gearbox, in my care for some time .

 

I had assumed that the Widdup was a licenced built copy, or simply a copy of the Bolinder, but was the widdup actually designed and built in Keithley?

 

Pluto is probably your man, but it was Widdop (as in Walter) and Keighley.

They did make full diesel versions of some of their engines, and they seem to have had a reputation for high quality engineering so it's a bit surprising that so few of their engines seem to have survived.

 

What happened to the engines you had in your 'care'? I did hear a nasty rumour that Gloucester museum had one in their care but scrapped it? can anyone confirm/deny?

 

Tim

Edited January 28, 2010 by Timleech

[springy]

Can anyone tell me the differences and similarities of the Bolinder and the Widdup, hot bulb two cylinder boat engine. I had a twin cylinder Widdup with reversing gearbox, in my care for some time .

 

I had assumed that the Widdup was a licenced built copy, or simply a copy of the Bolinder, but was the widdup actually designed and built in Keithley?

 

 

I have only seen photos of a Widdop and they looked slightly different to a Bolinder, but only in the same

way that a Bolinder looks slightly different to other Hot bulb engines for example Kromhout or Seffle or

Gardner or Munktell (yes they made their own semi before the merger with the Bolinder brothers) - close

inspection may reveal detail differences - early bolinders had the "injector" in the side of the bulb spraying

up, and used a water drip to prevent the bulb from overheating, later they moved the injector to the top

of the bulb and used the ability to vary the spray pattern to control the bulb temperature. Gardner semi's

(I believe) allow you the rotate the side mounted injector - aiming the spray upwards onto the bulb for

light running or down into the cylinder for working hard. Most of the hot bulb engine manufacturers a)

adopted "pump stroke" governors fairly early on whilst Bolinders stuck to Hit & Miss and then changed

to full diesel engines.

 

I'm not sure how much of your question that answers - I'm convinced its not a licenced copy, I dont think

its simply a copy with modifications, but would be quite happy with the idea that it was their own design

on the basic "Hot Bulb Engine" principle in the same way that many other engine manufacturers did -

usually with their own innovations to try and improve their market share. Though of course this would

probably have meant that they would have to look carefully at what their competitors were doing.

 

springy

Edited January 28, 2010 by springy

[Timleech]

I have only seen photos of a Widdop and they looked slightly different to a Bolinder, but only in the same

way that a Bolinder looks slightly different to other Hot bulb engines for example Kromhout or Seffle or

Gardner or Munktell (yes they made their own semi before the merger with the Bolinder brothers) - close

inspection may reveal detail differences - early bolinders had the "injector" in the side of the bulb spraying

up, and used a water drip to prevent the bulb from overheating, later they moved the injector to the top

of the bulb and used the ability to vary the spray pattern to control the bulb temperature. Gardner semi's

(I believe) allow you the rotate the side mounted injector - aiming the spray upwards onto the bulb for

light running or down into the cylinder for working hard. Most of the hot bulb engine manufacturers a)

adopted "pump stroke" governors fairly early on whilst Bolinders stuck to Hit & Miss and then changed

to full diesel engines.

 

I'm not sure how much of your question that answers - I'm convinced its not a licenced copy, I dont think

its simply a copy with modifications, but would be quite happy with the idea that it was their own design

on the basic "Hot Bulb Engine" principle in the same way that many other engine manufacturers did -

usually with their own innovations to try and improve their market share. Though of course this would

probably have meant that they would have to look carefully at what their competitors were doing.

 

springy

 

The 'semi-diesel' concept predates Dr. Diesel's engine, originally proposed by Herbert Ackroyd Stuart in England in the 1890s, there have been all sorts of variants and AIUI Bolinders was just one of those.

Over the years the 'hot bulb' seems to have gradually got smaller and injection technology got more sophisticated, probably compression ratios also increased. As I said Widdops made semi-and full- diesel versions of some of their engines, I don't think they were alone in that. Wichmann in Norway who made much bigger engines I believe made the transition by increasing compression ratios of existing engines.

The Bolinders adjustable sprayer does seem to have made for a successful engine, but others as Springy said had their own methods. Seffles used a variant of the Bolinders system, I don't know whether that was licensed. Petters had a fixed but much more sophisticated sprayer. I have a little Sabb, quite late for a semi-diesel, which has a fixed sprayer with a hinged deflector, the deflector is swung in front of the nozzle for starting and idle running.

I saw a Widdop single in the 1960s, tried to buy it but failed & it eventually went for scrap . That looked superficially not unlike any other 2-stroke single semi, but it had a 'modern' CAV injector and was presumably a 'full' diesel version although it needed a starting aid along the lines of a Field-Marshall tractor.

 

Re the Munktell name, I had a trip to the Netherlands on a Baltic ketch many moons ago, its engine was a 2-cyl 'June-Munktell' to the best of my recollection, I'll hazard a guess at about 60 hp. I've never worked out where that name fits in.

 

Tim

[antarmike]

A mate of mine bought the 2 and a half Widdop engines, but they came to my place. The engine got sold to a stationary engine bloke at Gorhambury near St Albans. He reassembled one of of evrything and has taken it as a runner to a few steam rallies.

 

I still have two or possible three flywheels he didn't take, and one of the two Air recievers for the Air start.

 

THe engines left my yard about 8 years ago, so I reckon they are still around. I was told the engine was ex L&L shortboat.

Edited January 29, 2010 by antarmike

[Timleech]

That is a really nice boat - although I think the white smoke is more than likely unburnt oil - perhaps lubricating oil coming down the valve guides? Good image though - makes it look like a steamer!

 

It's blue, burnt oil. More than likely glazed bores, it really doesn't have any work to do and had no thermostat fitted when I got it. It's quite a bit better now as it did have a few minutes at full throttle pulling the Kerne over a bank of silt, the exhaust at that point was 'interesting' , and since then I have fitted a thermostat. It also looks 'worse' because at that time the exhaust was exhausting (couldn't think of a better word) into the bottom of the funnel and wafting up through the funnel. The Kelvin had been set up with a fixed silencer in the funnel, but I needed to drop the funnel for the Weaver bridges so initially just removed the silencer. It really wasn't noisy with no silencer but I have since done a mod so that the silencer can come down with the funnel, and the exhaust is 'blown' out of the top and the smoke is much less obvious.

 

It could to with taking out in the Mersey for a good thrashing

 

Tim

[Pluto]

I had assumed that the Widdup was a licenced built copy, or simply a copy of the Bolinder, but was the widdup actually designed and built in Keithley?

Built under licence? This is a Yorkshire firm you're talking about! They wouldn't go spending money just like that, especially for what is really an inferior design to theirs. Widdops produced a wide range of engines, most of which would have been to big for canal boats. The schooner Result, at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, has a five IIRC cylinder one.

 

If anyone is interested, I can provide copies of two 1930s Widdop catalogues, 32 and 24 page A5 for £4-00 if you PM me.

[Derek R.]

Unburnt diesel comes out white. Impressive, but you don't want to be downwind.

 

Talk about semi-diesels - watch

go for a walk! Edited January 29, 2010 by Derek R.

[springy]

I was having a mooch yesterday when I found this

 

Bolinder Audio

 

Unfortunately my norwegian is "rusty" (non-existant really) but I'm pretty certain it

is a twin, and a nice clear recording of the engine in MS Gamle Svanøy. Also on the site are

some links to youtube videos of a nicely restored 120 HP twin of 1917 which I presume is the

same engine - 5 short clips showing Preheating and starting (air start) and some nice views

around the running engine - including clear shots showing all the direct reversing gear (not

demonstrated unfortunately) and also the "co-ordinated" injector pumps mentioned earlier

in this thread.

 

 

 

I also found this - a whole bunch of assorted hotbulb engines at a gathering in sweeden

 

Hotbulbs a plenty

 

enjoy

 

springy

[BuckbyLocks]

Reverting back to the original theme, I have no idea whether this engine, which was certainly photographed at the Black Country Museum in 1975 or 76 is the one at Ellesmere Port or not. If it is it must have been transferred to Stoke Bruerne, as the EP one was indeed taken from Stoke Bruerne, but I think there may have been two separate pump engines, one from Knowle and one from Stoke Bruerne.

The one in this picture is the Knowle pump engine, which ran for the last time in service during 1975 after 15 years of inactivity. BWs house magazine, 'Waterways News', says the engine came second hand from a fishing boat. It had a small petrol driven compressor to provide the air start. To get it from Knowle to the museum the Bolinder was loaded into a butty/day boat and towed there by Don Gray's 'Pensax', also fitted with a 15hp Bolinder. The article in Waterways News says that the last running was filmed for posterity, but doesn't say who by. I saw it running once in 74 or 75, but have no recollection if it was this last running or not.

unfortunately I do not have the date of this article, only a cutting in my scrap book which has just surfaced.

[andywatson]

Talk about semi-diesels - watch

go for a walk!

 

Bonkers. He was braver then me and lucky.

I'd have cleared off and left it.

 

Imagine being trapped under that thing alongside the gas bottle when it blew up.

A proper brown trousers event.

[jake_crew]

I wonder what the noise sounding like a sanding disc was ?

 

P'raps the gas cylinder being ground through by the flywheel. ?

 

Whatt fun, the more they tried to turn it off, the faster it went.

[mykaskin]

I wonder what the noise sounding like a sanding disc was ?

 

P'raps the gas cylinder being ground through by the flywheel. ?

 

Whatt fun, the more they tried to turn it off, the faster it went.

 

There was a blow lamp - it's a hot bulb engine, and that is the smaller gas cyclinder behind the engine. Could it have been this?

 

The large cyclinder was obviously compressed air (I hope that's all it was) for starting.

 

I understand Lister SR's can run away, thanks to desiel pipes inside the housing leaking, and causing the oil in the sump to thin and then blow past the rings. Turning off the fuel does nothing, its running on the sump oil like this one. Blocking, completely, the air or holding a valve open so that compression doesn't happen is about the only to stop these things when they get like that!

 

Mike

[Speedwheel]

Some nice videos here of a bolinder twin - slightly bigger scale though.

 

 

Better still here

 

- I 'need' one of these! Edited March 21, 2010 by Speedwheel

[luctor et emergo]

 

Can anyone tell me the differences and similarities of the Bolinder and the Widdup, hot bulb two cylinder boat engine. I had a twin cylinder Widdup with reversing gearbox, in my care for some time .

 

I had assumed that the Widdup was a licenced built copy, or simply a copy of the Bolinder, but was the widdup actually designed and built in Keithley?

 

 

I know nothing about the bolinder engines, but I'm interested in the hold cover of the boat behind. I presume it is a sliding system of overlapping hatches? I have not seen many pictures, certainly not a complete view, and was wondering how common these would have been on working boats, or where they relatively rare?

 

Aluminium? Steel? Plywood??

 

Thanks

[Speedwheel]

Blue tops - plastic. (Well OK GRP - thanks Derek!)

 

Think it was the river class boats they were first used on but, seeing who is currently viewing this thread, you will get a much more comprehensive answer shortly!

Edited March 21, 2010 by Speedwheel

[Derek R.]

They are called 'Blue tops', are made of GRP, and weight approx 28lbs each. They were fitted to River class boats built by BW, and were designed to speed loading/unloading. They don't actually slide anywhere (except in the cut if you're careless), but can be lifted off and stacked one upon the other. Fairly rainproof, but not bucket of water proof.

 

Derek

[Speedwheel]

See - I'm psychic!

[Derek R.]

You left a few letters out of that word . . .

 

Plastic will do.

 

That looks like a Douglas doing the lift, you still got that Mike? They were rated highly by the round timber men.

 

Derek

[Speedwheel]

That looks like a Douglas doing the lift, you still got that Mike? They were rated highly by the round timber men.

 

My uncle has one that looks very similar - he's a timber man. It has a Gardner 6 cylinder in it. Not sure who it was made by though.

[Derek R.]

Could have been an AEC Matador, quite a lot of those had Gardner engines, though there were Douglas/AEC crosses too.

Few Douglas's' here, and some Matadors.

 

Sorry - bit off topic! There's a firm by the name Douglas still build specialist aircraft tugs, but probably not the same company. Douglas timber tractors were merged into Dennis.

 

Derek

Edited March 22, 2010 by Derek R.

[antarmike]

Could have been an AEC Matador, quite a lot of those had Gardner engines, though there were Douglas/AEC crosses too.

Few Douglas's' here, and some Matadors.

 

Sorry - bit off topic! There's a firm by the name Douglas still build specialist aircraft tugs, but probably not the same company. Douglas timber tractors were merged into Dennis.

 

Derek

Douglas equipment Cheltenham started by converting matadors to timber tractors. Initially they cut down the wheelbase, built jib and Anchors. Later they started to modify the Matadors winch, shortening the mainshaft, and mounting it between lates behind the back axle.

 

First ones built circa 1948 were put together in three lock up garages.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?7...r-Gallery/page9

Moved to Arle after first year.

 

By 1952 when they built my one AEC matdors were not being released by the army because the Leyland Martian guntractor built to replace them was in design difficulties and production was delayed, so army reconditined Matadors and they soldiered on.

 

Douglas went to AEC and bought parts directly and assembled them into vehicles. Mine has Mammoth chassis rails, Mammoth back axle, Civvy Matador srtic cross member, Matador Transfer gearbox, Mammoth 9.6 engine married to Matador gearbox. Springs were not AEC, Douglas built jib and anhors, and winch is a Darlington ( licence built american winch)

 

Mine was new to Heathrow Airport were it spent 30 years on heavy towing, lifting, vehicle and Aircraft recovery. Supplied new to Board of Trade, Ministry of Aviation, passing to British Airpoerts Authority.

Above photo taken fairly late inits Heathrow Airport career.

Known to have cleared up after the Monach disaster, and to have been used several times to winch Jumbos of the grass back onto taxiways.

 

Present company is direct decendant of company that built mine, although it has been known as FL Douglas Ltd, Douglas Equipment, Douglas All Wheel drive in themeantime.

Chassis number for mine is 21, 20 went to Glasgow Airport, 21 went to an oil company.

 

It is not known how many Douglas vehicles were built because whenever they reached chassis number 999 they started agin at 001, because they only had room for three digits on the makers plate!

Engine in mine is AEC 9.6 Direct Injection Oil Engine.

 

Mine is the 1952 Type T4 Transporter pictured in your link.

 

It is not the same as the Timber tractor because the winch fitted to mine is far to slow to pull a tree in the right direction, and loading a pole carraige takes far too long. Mine is an out and out recovery winch, very slow, to give mud time to break the suction to let a bogged vehicle come out.

 

Douglas bought out/ merged with Mercury Tractors who also built Aircraft Tugs, and both Mecury's and Douglas' old factories are still in production.

Edited March 22, 2010 by antarmike

[antarmike]

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?7...r-Gallery/page3

My present Matador#24, the one I had before that#25, and my Dougla#26, are shown on this link.

See also page 5 post#48

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?7...-Gallery/page15

See post#149

Edited March 22, 2010 by antarmike

[alan_fincher]

Hi Mike,

 

Just curiosity, really...........

 

When I was a bus driver for Brighton Corporation Transport in the 1970s, they had a Matador that was nominally the recovery vehicle.

 

In fact, for reasons I never understood, the mechanics didn't rate it, and instead, (believe it or not) , usually recovered any disabled bus, including up to Atlantean double deckers using their Land Rover - with a solid tow bar. (If you consider some of the Brighton hills, and that the bus's brakes were usually non operational, it still makes me shudder).

 

Is it likely that Matador would have survived, and if so, how might one find out ?

 

Why would they have considered that a Land Rover was a better tow vehicle for a bus than a Matador ?

[antarmike]

Hi Mike,

 

Just curiosity, really...........

 

When I was a bus driver for Brighton Corporation Transport in the 1970s, they had a Matador that was nominally the recovery vehicle.

 

In fact, for reasons I never understood, the mechanics didn't rate it, and instead, (believe it or not) , usually recovered any disabled bus, including up to Atlantean double deckers using their Land Rover - with a solid tow bar. (If you consider some of the Brighton hills, and that the bus's brakes were usually non operational, it still makes me shudder).

 

Is it likely that Matador would have survived, and if so, how might one find out ?

 

Why would they have considered that a Land Rover was a better tow vehicle for a bus than a Matador ?

Southdown had two, one with atraditional cab, the other coacbuilt out of a Coach body. The Trad cab one was recently rebuilt back into its original RAF flatbed lorry specification and is doing the show rounds. But is Southdown the same as Brighton Corporation? I think not.

 

There are 80 pages of Matadors here

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?7...Matador-Gallery

Its a lot to wade through. I will check records because several people have lists of survivors, I'll see if I can Find Brighton Corporation Transport, amonst them.

Edited March 22, 2010 by antarmike