Bad habits on the tideway

[GUMPY]

I have lifted this from our club list.

 

Apologies John

 

The following quotation from a report presented to the recent PLA Harbour

Master's Recreational Navigation Group meeting needs to be brought to the

attention of ALL narrow boaters.

I personally am very alarmed at the cavalier attitude evidently taken by the

minority who have cause this.

 

Please, everybody, do your best to make sure that this sort of behaviour

does not continue or we will all be the sufferers.

 

 

<start of quote>

Under Agenda Item 7 of the agenda "Improving small vessel safety on the

Tidal Thames" was a report by the Harbour Master (Upper) that again there

have been concerns of some, and more than is acceptable, ignoring traffic

signals and advice and more specifically traversing bridges that have

closure signals. It has become so bad that they have had to put up Road

Signs - 'No Entry' as Narrow Boats might recognise this!

 

We were advised that the behaviour of many Narrow Boats and some "Dutch"

Barges have deteriorated this year. Not advising London VTS (Vessel

Traffic Service) taking no cognisance of other commercial and recreational

craft. Going through closed arches is seen to be a major concern as it is

possible that during the closure it can be possible for debris to drop on

the boats and there are heavy construction materials and plant . This has

already happened to a passenger vessel who chose to ignore the closure

signal.

 

The reaction of some of those steering the boats have been in some cases

abusive; saying to Harbour Master patrols that they are not sailors or

boaters but 'steerers' of narrow boats, and that they are not advised by the

BW Lock staff at Limehouse or Brentford! And in any event the rules do not

affect them and they never look at Notice to Mariners!

 

I understand that the National Community Association do have training

programmes for Narrow Boats and they intend to intensive their work leading

to the festival next year on the Thames - I am now in contact with their

organiser who was at the meeting yesterday.

 

I know that most bona fide members of your organisers would comply, but in

some way or another as representatives of cruising motor boats which must

include narrow boats we must address this problem.

 

It is also a problem on the upper reaches of the Thames when the river is in

flood, and I am sure it happens on other wide rivers with inexperienced

narrow boaters entering tidal or fast running water. However, in my

relatively wide cruising experience that includes the Rhine, the Tidal

Thames through the London Bridges is one of the most serious waterways and

could be very dangerous if not handled properly.

 

ATYC are considering an additional training programme to improve boat

handling on the non-tidal Thames, and the thought is that we make it user

friendly for narrow boats as well as the normal river cruiser, and from the

meeting yesterday it might well include an endorsement for the river

Limehouse to Teddington. However this is very much work in progress and if

it proceeds will start in 2010.

 

<end of quote>

[Phil Ambrose]

Makes interesting reading, once again the "can't be a*rsed,the rules dont' apply to me " brigade are in danger (not least to themselves) of getting everyone tarred with the same brush.

I think it is true that the Bad whatever it is sticks in peoples minds where the Good are quickly forgotten. I think this applies to people, places, events etc etc

 

Phil

[David Schweizer]

Perhaps the Authorities might consider a more user friendly signal system, like red for closed arch and green for Open arch, insteasd of the current red for closed and orange for open, which look the same in bright sunlight.

 

I had the misfortune of not being able to distinguish between the colours some years ago, and called to the Habour Master for advice. He signalled that I needed to go through arch four on the oppposite side of the river. Despite my valiant attempts to move across the river, I was carried sideways upstream by the incoming tide, and had no alternative but to turn and go through the first arch which presented iot self.

 

Fortunately there was nothing else on the river so there was no risk to my, or any other boat, but better signals could have enabled me to position the boat earlier.

Edited October 17, 2009 by David Schweizer

[GUMPY]

Perhaps the Authorities might consider a more user friendly signal system, like red for closed arch and green for Open arch, insteasd of the current red for closed and orange for open, which look the same in bright sunlight.

 

Its THREE red for closed and TWO orange for open no need for colour its the numbers of lights or discs.

One white for reduced headroom at night or a bale of straw by day and finally an white isophase ( equal on and off ) light indicating there is a large vessel needing to use that arch.

Its hardly confusing.

 

The time will come if this continues that narrow boats will be banned from the tideway

Edited October 17, 2009 by idleness

[DHutch]

Its hardly confusing.

I'll take your word for it...

[Keeping Up]

... an white isophase ( equal on and off ) light indicating there is a large vessel needing to use that arch.

I was watching some vessels on the river this week, and realised for the first time that the isophase light shows in BOTH directions at once. Couldn't that cause some confusion if there was a large vessel approaching from each direction? Might they not both assume that they had exclusive rights to the same arch?

[DHutch]

I was watching some vessels on the river this week, and realised for the first time that the isophase light shows in BOTH directions at once. Couldn't that cause some confusion if there was a large vessel approaching from each direction? Might they not both assume that they had exclusive rights to the same arch?

Total Chaos!

[gazza]

...mes through the London Bridges is one of the most serious waterways and

could be very dangerous if not handled properly.

 

ATYC are considering an additional training programme to improve boat

handling on the non-tidal Thames, and the thought is that we make it user

friendly for narrow boats as well as the normal river cruiser, and from the

meeting yesterday it might well include an endorsement for the river

Limehouse to Teddington. However this is very much work in progress and if

it proceeds will start in 2010.

 

what a line, love it 

[Chertsey]

The time will come if this continues that narrow boats will be banned from the tideway

Can they do that? Ban a vessel purely on the basis of its dimensions?

Edited October 17, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[GUMPY]

I was watching some vessels on the river this week, and realised for the first time that the isophase light shows in BOTH directions at once. Couldn't that cause some confusion if there was a large vessel approaching from each direction? Might they not both assume that they had exclusive rights to the same arch?

Indeed they do, however the isophase lights are triggered by the vessel not from anywhere else so you know if you have switched the light on and its unlikely that two ships would trigger them at exactly the same time.

The way they are confusing is you don't know if the large vessel is coming from behind you or in front of you unless you have been listening to VHF and know what is about on the river.

 

Personally I believe that the river is NOT the place for inexperienced boaters and there may well come a time when the PLA insist on a pilot or similar.

[soldthehouse]

Its THREE red for closed and TWO orange for open no need for colour its the numbers of lights or discs.

One white for reduced headroom at night or a bale of straw by day and finally an white isophase ( equal on and off ) light indicating there is a large vessel needing to use that arch.

Its hardly confusing.

 

The time will come if this continues that narrow boats will be banned from the tideway

I think not

[GUMPY]

Can they do that? Ban a vessel purely on the basis of its dimensions?

 

I think not

 

Possibly not but they can introduce a requirement for steerer's to be qualified or take a pilot and that would remove most

Edited October 17, 2009 by idleness

[soldthehouse]

Possibly not but they can ban inexperienced skippers.

 

 

 

They can introduce a requirement for steerer's to be qualified or take a pilot and that would ban most

That would be to ban the skipper not the boat

Edited October 17, 2009 by soldthehouse

[CanalWalker]

health and safety gone mad!

[soldthehouse]

Can they do that? Ban a vessel purely on the basis of its dimensions?

the danger is that some beurocrettin or desk jobsworth gets the notion into their head and off we go down the slippery slope...

Edited October 17, 2009 by soldthehouse

[Steilsteven]

health and safety gone mad!

 

 

Perhaps you'd better stick to those canals in your photos then.

 

Keith.

[Deepinvet]

It might be H&S gone mad, but just do as your'e told and we will ALL be ok....I certainley wouldn't want a Cement mixer or any sort of Construction equipment dropping on my head..... The Thames is a dangerous waterway.

[blackrose]

Some of the responses to Julian's post just exemplify the attitude of inexperienced narrowboaters that the PLA. Is concerned about. It's no wonder that narrowboats aren't given much respect on the Thames by the PLA or commercial skippers..

 

I suspect that those who mock the system of signals and bridge span markers on the tideway or joke about H&S madness have never actually taken their boat through London on the Thames.

 

Instead of us all getting up in arms about the possible tightening of the rules allowing pleasure craft on the tideway, how about we learn and obey the rules? I think that was the idea of the OP.

Edited October 17, 2009 by blackrose

[howardang]

Some of the responses to Julian's post just exemplify the attitude of inexperienced narrowboaters that the PLA. Is concerned about. It's no wonder that narrowboats aren't given much respect on the Thames by the PLA or commercial skippers..

 

I suspect that those who mock the system of signals and bridge span markers on the tideway or joke about H&S madness have never actually taken their boat through London on the Thames.

 

Instead of us all getting up in arms about the possible tightening of the rules allowing pleasure craft on the tideway, how about we learn and obey the rules? I think that was the idea of the OP.

Well said. I was beginning to wonder if it was just me.

 

Howard

[David Schweizer]

Its THREE red for closed and TWO orange for open no need for colour its the numbers of lights or discs.

One white for reduced headroom at night or a bale of straw by day and finally an white isophase ( equal on and off ) light indicating there is a large vessel needing to use that arch.

Its hardly confusing.

 

The time will come if this continues that narrow boats will be banned from the tideway

Well it must be a comparatively new arrangemenrt because we passed through Richmond, Twickenham and Teddington and none of them had the system that you are describing. In fact I can remember there only being lights on Teddington bridge, and they were definitely only single lights.

[blackrose]

Well it must be a comparatively new arrangemenrt because we passed through Richmond, Twickenham and Teddington and none of them had the system that you are describing. In fact I can remember there only being lights on Teddington bridge, and they were definitely only single lights.

Its not a new system, there are lights on all the bridges you passed under and they're not single lights. (At least they were all marked with double lights last time I went up to Tedders a few months ago.)

Edited October 18, 2009 by blackrose

[the grinch]

Well it must be a comparatively new arrangemenrt because we passed through Richmond, Twickenham and Teddington and none of them had the system that you are describing. In fact I can remember there only being lights on Teddington bridge, and they were definitely only single lights.

 

no its been like this for over 40 years to my knowledge, at richmond getting it wrong could be disasterous as the wier is only partially opened on a lot of tides

[luctor et emergo]

But why should a narrow boat have to obey the rules, or learn those confusing signals? They have been 'steering' on the canals for years, and never a scratch on their boat.

 

[Tam & Di]

I was watching some vessels on the river this week, and realised for the first time that the isophase light shows in BOTH directions at once. Couldn't that cause some confusion if there was a large vessel approaching from each direction? Might they not both assume that they had exclusive rights to the same arch?

 

Just because rules sometimes just get written for the sake of writing rules does not mean that a state of anarchy is ideal. Navigation rules on a busy waterway are not a bad thing. Also the PLA are maybe not as stupid as you think, and this possibility has occured to them. The isophase lights flash 2 seconds on and 2 off when triggered by a large vessel, or quick flash 90 per minute if activated by two vessel in opposing directions. The upstream vessel gives way to the downstream one as normal in such meetings. These vessels are also in VHF contact with each other and with Port Control. So too are all other vessels, so those in the vicinity will also know what is going on. Except for CanalWalker and co., who even if they have a radio and it is switched on apparentlly think that there should not be rules of any kind or at least they should not apply to them

[Keeping Up]

Just because rules sometimes just get written for the sake of writing rules does not mean that a state of anarchy is ideal. Navigation rules on a busy waterway are not a bad thing. Also the PLA are maybe not as stupid as you think, and this possibility has occured to them. The isophase lights flash 2 seconds on and 2 off when triggered by a large vessel, or quick flash 90 per minute if activated by two vessel in opposing directions. The upstream vessel gives way to the downstream one as normal in such meetings. These vessels are also in VHF contact with each other and with Port Control. So too are all other vessels, so those in the vicinity will also know what is going on. Except for CanalWalker and co., who even if they have a radio and it is switched on apparentlly think that there should not be rules of any kind or at least they should not apply to them

Thanks for the explanation. The earlier explanation sounded like an accident waiting to happen; your version makes sense.

 

These days I wouldn't dream of going through the busy tideway without VHF radio, and I for one am glad that the regulations now require it for most narrowboats.

 

I see that the regulations state that small craft should always use the outer arches of Tower bridge if they are able to do so. I wondered, in that context does a narrowboat count as a small craft? Personally I'd assume not, especially in the case of one over 20 metres long, but I don't know for certain.