useing a pilot

[number four]

i have been speeking to some inshurance brokers about the policy for my up coming boat a 45'x12' wide beem cat D

and asked if i would be coverd for crossing the bristol channel and up the severn and the tidal Thames.

 

most say it is posible but i would need to use a pilot.

does any one know why as the broker dont seem to !!

 

as some background i curently sail and have been in all these waters under normal sailing situation.

in fact any one can sail on these waters unrestricted. no qualification is needed, as long as the boat has the corect nav lights for its size.

[carlt]

Narrowboats are not designed to cope with navigating large tidal waters so the insurer is within his rights to insist on having a qualified expert, on board.

 

You are allowed to go, without a pilot, of course, just without the luxury of insurance.

 

Edited to say: sorry didn't read your boat description. You could always upgrade to Cat.C or find a less picky insurer (if you've got, or get RYA certificates insurers are more lenient, and cheaper, btw)

Edited October 4, 2009 by carlt

[grunders]

We did the River Severn from Sharpness to Portishead with a pilot. I think this is advisable if you don't know the river well as the channel doesn't follow the line of the river so you need to know where you are going to avoid grounding.

 

But, having said that, last time I was at Sharpness, a few plastic boats went out without pilots on board. They had to use a lot of power to push down river as the tide was coming in at the time. They also definitely knew where the channel was.

 

Insurance wise, I guess if the insurer says take a pilot then take a pilot.

[number four]

thanks for trying.

but it seems that you are giving the same answers as the broker and dont know the answer.

i have 4000 miles of experance in navigating uk tidal waters and the qualificatons to go with i am curently inshured to sail these waters on my existing boat.

it is not the boat as they will inshure it with a pilot.

and its not me as its the same inshurance company that inshure me for these waters now.

 

it can as i see it only be that they blanket asume that inland boaters have no experance with coastal waters and dont ask.

 

if they said you need to have a certain amount of experance and the boat needs a min amount of equipment, and can only go in restricted weather conditions etc, or use a pilot that would make sence.

 

this is inportant to me as i want to keep the boat on the tidal medway and then cruse into the Thames and in through to Bristol etc.

on a regular trip.

this amount of tidal work for me does not warent a cat C boat. its a waste of money for 2-3 times a year (as stated nor does the inshurance companies think the boat cant do it).

[n.b.Goldie]

thanks for trying.

but it seems that you are giving the same answers as the broker and dont know the answer.

i have 4000 miles of experance in navigating uk tidal waters and the qualificatons to go with i am curently inshured to sail these waters on my existing boat.

it is not the boat as they will inshure it with a pilot.

and its not me as its the same inshurance company that inshure me for these waters now.

 

it can as i see it only be that they blanket asume that inland boaters have no experance with coastal waters and dont ask.

 

if they said you need to have a certain amount of experance and the boat needs a min amount of equipment, and can only go in restricted weather conditions etc, or use a pilot that would make sence.

 

this is inportant to me as i want to keep the boat on the tidal medway and then cruse into the Thames and in through to Bristol etc.

on a regular trip.

this amount of tidal work for me does not warent a cat C boat. its a waste of money for 2-3 times a year (as stated nor does the inshurance companies think the boat cant do it).

Apart from the insurance issue, you seem reluctant to employ a Pilot. Why not compromise and use a Pilot for the first trip or two and then you might; a. be grateful you did employ a Pilot or b. Decide that a Pilot is a waste of time and do it by yourself in the future.

 

Anyhow you be a braver man than me Gungadin!

 

Ditchdabbler

[Boatless]

http://www.waterscape.com/canals-and-river...-severn/boating

 

 

Sharpness to Bristol

 

Although the 24 nautical miles passage between Sharpness and Bristol is often 'not recommended' for inland waterway craft,safe passage is possible for boats which are suitably prepared and equipped for a short sea voyage with skippers or crew members who have experience and knowledge for the journey, or with licensed Severn pilots.

 

For those considering the passage, detailed guidance is available through British Waterways' Gloucester office (01452 318000), the Port Authority Office at Sharpness, and from the Harbour Master's Office at Bristol City Docks. It is strongly recommended that the guidance notes are obtained well in advance of the proposed passage.

Sharpness Harbour Master (01453 811862): 08.30-17.00 Mon-Thu, 08.30-16.30 Fri

Sharpness Pier Head (01453 511968): from 5hrs before to 1hr after High Water, Sharpness

Harbour Master, Bristol City Docks (0117 926 4797): 08.00-sunset

Dock Master, Cumberland Basin (0117 9273633): from 3hrs before to 1hr after High Water, Avonmouth

Avonmouth Signal Station (0117 982 2257): 24hrs

HM Coastguard, Swansea (01792 366534): 24hrs

Weather Marine Call, Bristol Channel (01891 500 459): 24hrs

Amalgamated Gloucester Pilots (07774 226143): office hours

[blackrose]

I've no idea about the Bristol channel, but my insurance company just wanted an extra premium to cover me from the Thames Barrier to the Medway. They made no mention of a pilot.

[carlt]

thanks for trying.

but it seems that you are giving the same answers as the broker and dont know the answer.

Actually I do know the answer.

 

Your insurance company doesn't want to insure your boat for these passages, without a pilot.

 

The answer is...get a pilot or get a new insurance company.

 

If that is the answer your broker gave then he is correct.

 

 

 

http://www.waterscape.com/canals-and-river...-severn/boating

 

 

Sharpness to Bristol

Unfortunately this is advice aimed at the boater, not the insurance company.

 

It is the Englishman's fundamental right to go to sea in a tin bath, if he so wishes.

 

It is the insurance company's right to refuse cover, for whatever reason they choose.

[Steilsteven]

Try a different insurer, I'm with Groves John and Westrup who don't insist on a pilot and I have an agreed cruising range which takes in the Severn estuary and the Thames estuary as far as a line drawn between Brightlingsea and Whitstable.

 

Keith.

[ChrisPy]

reasons:

 

1) your Cat D boat is not designed for open water, so you have to ensure it is not subjected to anything more than it would normally experience on rivers, canals and small sheltered lakes. Cat D is not just a level of certification, it is linked to a design code that deals with stability, swamping, seaworthiness, etc. But with your extensive experience you know that already.

 

2) you want to go across the Bristol Channel? to the Welsh coast? the sea conditions can be seriously rough and the currents treacherous. As you know, the region has one of the largest tidal ranges in the world, which equates to some serious currents, eddies, 'wind over current' waves, breaking surf ................. well, you know the rest because you have extensive experience of tidal waters.

 

3) you want to go up the Severn to Sharpness? ditto.

 

4) anyone can sail on these waters unrestricted? yes, but that's because the waters in question are unregulated, not because they are safe for skippers who are not familiar with them. Your boat should also prepared for engine failure, missing the tide, emergency anchoring in very strong currents, but I'm sure you know this already. No doubt your boat has serious speed limitations, like any widebeam canal boat, which should be taken into account, but I'm sure you know this already.

 

I find it hard to reconcile your claimed extensive experience of navigation in tidal waters with your concept that you do not need a pilot to guide you on these waters for the first time. Travelling as part of a group would also be advisable.

[Roger Gunkel]

Number Four,

 

I don't know the extent of your seagoing experience, the type of boat you have used at sea, or the level of your qualifications, as you have told us nothing about any of them. I am currently owner of a small seagoing motorsailer, with a fair number of seagoing hours under my belt, and and a 57' widebeam inland waterways boat, which leads me to wonder why you are asking the question in the first place.

 

The waters that you are contemplating crossing can at times be challenging for a well found seagoing boat. It is not something that I would contemplate on my own widebeam, based on my seagoing experience and knowledge of boats. Your confidence in your own ability, is obviously not matched by that of your insurance company. They would want a pilot involved, as the training, qualification and knowledge of a pilot, would be sufficient for them to have confidence in his judgement and would also be recognised as a requirement by any joint underwriters. Your own qualifications are obviously not enough to meet that requirement!

 

If you are so confident in your own ability and that of the boat, I can see absolutely no reason why you would need the insurance cover at all, it would just become your risk rather than someone elses. As you are obviously aware of the navigational, equipment and safety requirements, I can see no reason not to take your own risk, or as you feel, no risk at all.

 

Roger

[Keeping Up]

Much in line with previous posts, how would YOU assess the risk?

 

Do yo assess the risk as trivial? In this case you don't need the insurance.

 

Do you assess the risk as significant? In that case, the insurance companies wouldn't want to know you.

 

Personally I think the pilots in the Bristol Channel are superb, and I wouldn't venture in those waters without one, but that is because I don't know those waters sufficiently well.

[number four]

Try a different insurer, I'm with Groves John and Westrup who don't insist on a pilot and I have an agreed cruising range which takes in the Severn estuary and the Thames estuary as far as a line drawn between Brightlingsea and Whitstable.

 

Keith.

 

thanks for this info someone else has also recomended GJW.

 

 

as to the other replies chaps i was not asking for a asesment of my sailing abilitys.

 

i was asking what reason the insurance companys gave others for using a pilot.

as i have not been asked of my experiance before being giving the blanket statment that you will need a pilot.

 

as for those that may want to know as said, i have 4000miles experance sailing uk waters i have spent the last 4 months sailing around the uk and have sailed in all the waters mentioned i currently am the skipper of a 37' cat and have sailed in sea states to force 9

i hold a yacht master ticket.

i am happy to take the boat into these waters uninsured if need be.

but as i said to the broker if the boat catches fire in these waters with an unrelated fault i am not coverd.

[carlt]

They're not insuring you, though, they're insuring the boat and choose to trust a pilot's judgement on whether the boat is capable of making the passage.

 

I too have extensive experience in offshore sailing and would quite happily take my boat out in poor conditions....but if I had a Cat D flat bottomed tub, I may well hire a Pilot, for the passages you mention, especially if I was risking going uninsured, otherwise.

[RLWP]

thanks for this info someone else has also recomended GJW.

 

 

as to the other replies chaps i was not asking for a asesment of my sailing abilitys.

 

i was asking what reason the insurance companys gave others for using a pilot.

as i have not been asked of my experiance before being giving the blanket statment that you will need a pilot.

 

as for those that may want to know as said, i have 4000miles experance sailing uk waters i have spent the last 4 months sailing around the uk and have sailed in all the waters mentioned i currently am the skipper of a 37' cat and have sailed in sea states to force 9

i hold a yacht master ticket.

i am happy to take the boat into these waters uninsured if need be.

but as i said to the broker if the boat catches fire in these waters with an unrelated fault i am not coverd.

 

I would say that that is correct. The means of escape and fire fighting for a boat on an inland waterway are inherently much safer than a boat in open water.

 

Richard

[mykaskin]

As someone who has done many tidal crossing of various waters (though not quite as big as the Severn) I don't know what the fuss is about.

 

Many pilots are unaware of the capabilities of a narrowboat (or similar craft), though I suspect many are getting more experience these days. I am reminded of a story where a pilot on a narrowboat abandoned ship when it got rough. The boat was later recovered downstream still floating happily!

 

Like any open water, you have to pick your days. Any sailor of experience will know how to look at the weather, and make a judgement on wind direction, tidal flow, and access the likely sea state. This is something we do crossing the Humber on a regular basis, and know that a force 4 northerly or easterly on a rising tide will be far better than a 2-3 blowing in the wrong direction.

 

Most inland boats don't travel as fast as sea-going boats, and so you have to be much more aware of the effect the tide is having on your direction of travel, I would hope any "yachtmaster" trained person would be aware of this - especially if he is familar with the waters. I would say that most yacht sailors know an area of water far better than most pilots as finding the best wind will take them out of the channel.

 

What I suggest you do to placate the insurance company is to produce a method statement - which shows you've thought of the possibilities and what to do in each case. I would bet this is more than most pilots would have done in preparation!

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[number four]

to clarify

i am asking for peoples experiance and reasons given by inshurance co for using a pilot.

 

pilots do not take charge of a ship that is always with the master.

they are a gide to navigation

 

 

"Pilots with local knowledge have been employed on board ships for centuries to guide vessels into or out of port safely - or wherever navigation may be considered hazardous, particularly when a shipmaster is unfamiliar with the area.

 

In addition to local knowledge and expertise, pilots are able to provide effective communication with the shore and with tugs, often in the local language"

 

D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

 

so my boat is built for the pasage intended and i have personal nolage off the waters in question

i dont see why i need a pilot?

so i am looking for inshurance co that will inshure me for these waters without the need for a pilot

like GJW as mentioned befor.

[carlt]

to clarify

i am asking for peoples experiance and reasons given by inshurance co for using a pilot.

Isn't that what you've got?

[Naughty Cal]

so my boat is built for the pasage intended and i have personal nolage off the waters in question

 

I would hire a pilot and maybe read the dictionary whilst he navigates your boat

[colin stone]

D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

 

so my boat is built for the pasage intended and i have personal nolage off the waters in question

i dont see why i need a pilot?

 

Those waters - Thames, Severn estuaries and Bristol Channel - are most certainly not "sheltered coastal waters". The Solent on a calm day might just meet the criteria as might the Fal estuary and Plymouth well inside the breakwater.

[ChrisPy]

Those waters - Thames, Severn estuaries and Bristol Channel - are most certainly not "sheltered coastal waters". The Solent on a calm day might just meet the criteria as might the Fal estuary and Plymouth well inside the breakwater.

but No.4 is a yachtmaster, so he knows better

[Naughty Cal]

D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays,small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

 

Has any one come a cross a 0.5m wave on a canal yet?

[Keeping Up]

You can certainly expect wave heights of more than 0.3 metres on the Bristol Channel

[FadeToScarlet]

Has any one come a cross a 0.5m wave on a canal yet?

 

[Cheap shot] Everyone at Brayford Pool on that fateful day? [/cheap shot]

 

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[Naughty Cal]

[Cheap shot] Everyone at Brayford Pool on that fateful day? [/cheap shot]

 

Sorry, couldn't resist!

 

That was more in the order of 3ft if you believe the "witnesses"