Paying for red diesel

[Lady Muck]

I dunno about anyone else, but I don't buy the same split all the time, it depends what I'm doing. Right now we are not moving, am moored in mums town for almost three weeks, before that we were on the move most days. In winter I don't buy propulsion, because I'm not propelling myself!

[g-man]

Wot are you lot on about?

 

The Government are not bothered at the moment what split you declare, but in the future, they now have the ability, to pounce when they want to tighten up on finance.

 

No outlet can stop you having fuel at anything you wish to declare. It's a VAT matter and it's between you and HMG

 

Agreed, the last 3 times I have purchased red, I have declared 100% heating without any arguments from the supplier. Most of this seems to be how much a jobsworth\tax collector the individual wishes to be.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I can't see why. As I say, I declare 60/40, but would boycott an outlet that enforced it.

 

I declare 60/40 but buy on price alone. Perhaps a poll - "Would you buy from an outlet that only allows a 60/40 split" Yes/No.

 

My limited experience would suggest that outlets offering a variable split are cheaper anyway.

 

My real concern is that you have to get off your boat and make enquires to find out what is being offered and at what price. You don't have to drive into a petrol station to find out that info.

[Bob the welder]

My sister in law works for the customs and excise . Shes been informed

Nice one . BOB

[cotswoldsman]

Some posts have mentioned that unless we continue to support marinas even if they will only sell at a 60/40 the day will come when no one sells diesel, this could well be correct.

Here on the Lancaster Canal there is only 1 marina selling diesel and they will only sell for non propulsion, no choice again. This has opened up a good business opertunity for 2 guys who deliver diesel to your boat on the towpath and will accept whatever split you declare, they now also deliver coal and gas. So life does go on this also means if you are permantly moored you can declare 100% non propulsion as you don't even have to move your boat to fill up.

[alan_fincher]

My real concern is that you have to get off your boat and make enquires to find out what is being offered and at what price. You don't have to drive into a petrol station to find out that info.

Now on that, on the other hand, we do agree 100%, Allan.

 

Very few of the places we have passed in the last 2 weeks / 260 miles are displaying any useful information outside.

 

I would like to see displayed....

 

1) Price

2) Restrictions on "split" on offer.

3) Restrictions on method of payment, (e.g. Cash Only)

4) Surcharges (e.g. for credit card use).

 

The last two cheapies we have passed (Norbury and Wheaton Aston), display price, (very conspicuously), but nothing else.

[Bones]

I'm less concerned about the price we paid - he told us the price beforehand, told us they only charge the "full tax rate" which is why he says their price is nintey-something pence, and we accepted that out of sheer laziness of going up the canal and fighting through hire boats to get the 60%/40% split. That price we chose to pay.

 

However my concern is that the hand-written thing he told me to sign claimed we're paid much much less for our fuel. It was false information. That suggests to me they are keeping the price difference and not declaring it to revenue.

 

 

Exactly! Isn't the point that BSP was happy to pay whatever, but she PAID 100%, not 60/40 YET the paper work said she paid 60/40 and the PRICE on the paper work declaring what she had paid SAID 60/40

 

So... surely the paper work should match what you actually paid irrespective of what the boatyard enforces. IF a marina want to do 60/40 and you dont want to pay that is fine, but surely one shouldn't be expected to pay 100%, declare 60/40 when they were told 60/40 wasn't an option.

 

Who gets the spare tax that BSP HAD to pay but wasn't allowed to declare

 

BSP isn't complaining about the price, she is complaining that the paperwork didn't match the price!!!!

 

Maybe it was a mistake, but I certainly wouldn't be happy with the situation. I am not sure why it is so complicated to work out the proportion. Xpence for propulsion, X pence for generating. It is simply mathematics and with a calculator it should be easy enough, and VERY simple with a spread sheet and most marina offices have a computer or a calculator.

[mayalld]

Like another poster, I would avoid doing any business, (not just fuel), with Kate Boats on the basis of your decision about diesel sales.

 

That is where it gets silly!

 

If a supplier doesn't meet your needs for the splits you can declare, then choosing to buy elsewhere is sensible. Both parties have mutually come to a decision that a diesel purchase isn't available on terms that are agreeable. No different to choosing not to buy from suppliers that charge a higher than average price.

 

It is this "and I won't buy anything else from you either" that is nonsensical.

 

You are saying that;

• You will buy other stuff from canalside businesses that offer a "full" diesel service
  
• You will buy other stuff from canalside businesses that don't sell diesel at all
  
• You won't buy other stuff from canalside businesses that offer a limited diesel service
  

So, Kate Boats could regain your custom for other stuff by stopping selling diesel.

 

What a magnificent victory you would have if you could get all the places that only sell on a 60/40 split to stop selling completely!

[Chris Pink]

Exactly! Isn't the point that BSP was happy to pay whatever, but she PAID 100%, not 60/40 YET the paper work said she paid 60/40 and the PRICE on the paper work declaring what she had paid SAID 60/40

 

That wasn't my understanding of Kate Boat's reply; i thought they said they were operating a split 60.40 but ONLY that split, hence the declaration. and that the 90p was their price at that split (ie 100% propulsion would be more)

 

So potentially putting a boater in the situation of getting their diesel too cheap (according the gubbernment, bless their pointy heads, tug forelocks NOW).

[BlueStringPudding]

My sister in law works for the customs and excise . Shes been informed

 

 

Blimey, this tax declaration thing doesn't half make things difficult.

 

I reckon that it's good practice to keep copies of things you sign, and receipts for things that be required by people like HMRC. I'd be a bit concerned if someone refused me a copy of a declaration I'd signed.

 

It's hard to divine the truth from threads on a public forum like this, but it's useful to hear people's ideas, so I'm glad BSP posted it. It'll make me think carefully (again) about how I buy diesel and where, and what I need to get from the vendor.

 

I hope that the company in question are able to consider how confusing the process can be for their customers, particularly those new to boating, and can think of a way to explain their process quickly and easily. Perhaps a printed crib sheet could be displayed by the till, and maybe all customers could be given a copy of their declaration to take away with them in future. If the process is sound then it's just a question of communicating it to customers more effectively.

It's common practice elsewhere on t'interwebs for customers of all sorts of companies to post comments about the service they received - and it's reassuring when companies use their right to reply to explain processes and planned improvements

 

(Edited to clarify I meant Revenue and Customs)

 

If that's the only issue here, then that makes absolute sense. If there's no scam going on, train the staff to communicate what's going on properly. We've bought fuel from all over the place since the tax split thing came into play, and never had the kind of bizarre set up we found at Stockton Top Marina.

 

Certainly never had a a hand-written receipt that indicated we paid a different amount to what we had actually paid before.

[cotswoldsman]

That is where it gets silly!

 

If a supplier doesn't meet your needs for the splits you can declare, then choosing to buy elsewhere is sensible. Both parties have mutually come to a decision that a diesel purchase isn't available on terms that are agreeable. No different to choosing not to buy from suppliers that charge a higher than average price.

 

It is this "and I won't buy anything else from you either" that is nonsensical.

 

You are saying that;

• You will buy other stuff from canalside businesses that offer a "full" diesel service
  
• You will buy other stuff from canalside businesses that don't sell diesel at all
  
• You won't buy other stuff from canalside businesses that offer a limited diesel service
  

So, Kate Boats could regain your custom for other stuff by stopping selling diesel.

 

What a magnificent victory you would have if you could get all the places that only sell on a 60/40 split to stop selling completely!

 

Don't think anyone is saying anything other than that they won't buy stuff from a marina that forces them to make a potential wrong declaration. I would not buy anything from one of those marinas as to me it indicates that they are either lazy as they can't even be bothered to calculate a simple diesel split or they are not capable of using a calculator so most probably would not be very good at calculating prices on anything else.

 

Looking at the list of marinas on Greywolf's site with over 100 marinas listed there are 15 that won't let boaters make there own declaration (Kate Boats being one) so I don't think less than 15% of marinas closing would be a great loss.

[BlueStringPudding]

Beat you in doing that by a few minutes, I guess. :-) Thanks to Cheryl for responding so quickly.

 

Boating is a small community (eg compared with motoring), so suggesting that the hard-working canal character who sold the fuel (I'm guessing a bit here, but from the description of the incident maybe not very much), was displaying his gruffer side that day: and who wouldn't given the absurd fiddling-about that HMRC has invented for us? However much he was in a not-suffering-fools mode that day, he didn't deserve, on a public forum, to be accused of dishonesty. IMHO.

 

If you re-read my opening post you'll see I have raised questions not made accusations. And I have been very very clear that what I have said is my opinion.

 

Incidentally, if "not suffering fools mode" means "crap communicator" or "getting the facts wrong when asked", then he needs training. Anyone who works with people, especially if they take money from them, knows that accurate communication is vital.

Otherwise it might as well be self-service.

 

Thank you for explaining your policy.

 

I for one will certainly not be using your facilities for anything and will also recomend to fellow boaters that they give your company a big miss.

It would appear that your company can not be bothered with its potential customers and in the case of people who use more than 60% propulsion incouraging them to make a false declaration to HMCE.

Its a good job that companies like your are in the minority and that most marinas are customer focused enough to allow boaters to make there own declaration.

 

 

 

 

David I agree with you and as stated before I would hope that boaters do no business with the marinas that impose a set split.

I am starting a section on my web site to make boaters aware of marinas to avoid and will use the old fashioned word of mouth.

 

Hear hear.

 

 

Or even the newsagents in Liverpool that wont sell the Sun. As I don't read the Sun this does not matter but again the newsagent has made his choice and I imagine that people that read the Sun go to newsagents that serve there requirements. Same as I will only use marinas that serve my requirements.

 

It's funny how threads reel off track. I'm not bothered whether my newsagent sells The Sun.

 

However if he charges me for the Financial Times and gives me a receipt for News Of The World, I'd want to know why.

Edited August 11, 2009 by BlueStringPudding

[cotswoldsman]

If you re-read my opening post you'll see I have raised questions not made accusations. And I have been very very clear that what I have said is my opinion.

 

Incidentally, if "not suffering fools mode" means "crap communicator" or "getting the facts wrong when asked", then he needs training. Anyone who works with people, especially if they take money from them, knows that accurate communication is vital.

Otherwise it might as well be self-service.

 

I would be amazed if any company that can't even be bothered to do a simple calculation that is required to do a diesel split would spend time or money on something as simple as staff training.

[BlueStringPudding]

Exactly! Isn't the point that BSP was happy to pay whatever, but she PAID 100%, not 60/40 YET the paper work said she paid 60/40 and the PRICE on the paper work declaring what she had paid SAID 60/40

 

So... surely the paper work should match what you actually paid irrespective of what the boatyard enforces. IF a marina want to do 60/40 and you dont want to pay that is fine, but surely one shouldn't be expected to pay 100%, declare 60/40 when they were told 60/40 wasn't an option.

 

Who gets the spare tax that BSP HAD to pay but wasn't allowed to declare

 

BSP isn't complaining about the price, she is complaining that the paperwork didn't match the price!!!!

Maybe it was a mistake, but I certainly wouldn't be happy with the situation. I am not sure why it is so complicated to work out the proportion. Xpence for propulsion, X pence for generating. It is simply mathematics and with a calculator it should be easy enough, and VERY simple with a spread sheet and most marina offices have a computer or a calculator.

 

 

 

And that is exactly what the chap used to calculate the 60/40 split which he'd told me I wasn't getting.

[alan_fincher]

So, Kate Boats could regain your custom for other stuff by stopping selling diesel.

Kate boats could potentially regain my custom if they started selling diesel in the spirit of what HMRC announced, (although would need to sell at a more competitive price!).

 

It is unlikely I would have any reason to stop at Kate Boats unless it was primarily to buy diesel - if I did, I might well make other purchases.

 

What a magnificent victory you would have if you could get all the places that only sell on a 60/40 split to stop selling completely!

 

If every private boater declined to fill up there, I do not for a moment believe they would stop selling diesel retail. They would far more likely rethink their decision and come in line with the maybe 80% to 90% of retailers who are doing the right thing.

 

Your arguments are daft in my view. It could be said that if places only offering a 60/40 split see no loss of trade, it could encourage other retailers to cut administrative effort, and also force a "standard" split. Taken to it's logical conclusion all canalside red would only be sold 60/40.

 

That would be a "magnificent" situation too, wouldn't it ?

[carlt]

What a magnificent victory you would have if you could get all the places that only sell on a 60/40 split to stop selling completely!

Shouldn't you be concerned that a business isn't bothered whether you are breaking the law, or not, Dave?

 

I've had a lot of flak (some of it from you) because I believe it is none of my business if someone's tax affairs are in order, or not.

 

Surely me not making a note of every boat that isn't displaying their boat tax receipt is a lesser sin than a company not caring if the business transaction they are participating in could be illegal?

Edited August 11, 2009 by carlt

[Tiny]

I am still puzzled as to where the original 60/40 split came from. By my calculations it owes more to hire and share boat use than private owners. If you run an 8 hour moving day and also run your heating morning and evening the 60/40 fits. But lots do not use this regime.

 

Being that sort of a person I log all fuel brought, engine run time, time to charge batteries/heat water and have done for the life of this, my boat. The result for me is 25 fuel to 75 red fuel. This is nothing like 60/40 and no doubt this is true of many. So we need to loose the insistance of 60/40 being normal and go to all yards allowing any split. Of course the problem comes when there are few pumps and as few yards display what their rules are.

 

Given this it is nice of Kate Boats to tell us theirs is 60/40 and not any other split. It is a shame there is not a list of 'any split' pumps on the waterways.

[magpie patrick]

I am still puzzled as to where the original 60/40 split came from. By my calculations it owes more to hire and share boat use than private owners. If you run an 8 hour moving day and also run your heating morning and evening the 60/40 fits. But lots do not use this regime.

 

Being that sort of a person I log all fuel brought, engine run time, time to charge batteries/heat water and have done for the life of this, my boat. The result for me is 25 fuel to 75 red fuel. This is nothing like 60/40 and no doubt this is true of many. So we need to loose the insistance of 60/40 being normal and go to all yards allowing any split. Of course the problem comes when there are few pumps and as few yards display what their rules are.

 

Given this it is nice of Kate Boats to tell us theirs is 60/40 and not any other split. It is a shame there is not a list of 'any split' pumps on the waterways.

 

Actually, I'd say in a boat cruising long hours every day the split is nearer 90/10 and if measured on engine hours "under way" could well be 100/0. It is not a hire boat figure at all.

[Naughty Cal]

Actually, I'd say in a boat cruising long hours every day the split is nearer 90/10 and if measured on engine hours "under way" could well be 100/0. It is not a hire boat figure at all.

 

But whilst underway the engine is still spinning the alternator which is charging the batteries and usually producing hot water. So can that be calculated as domestic use?

[Nine of Hearts]

But whilst underway the engine is still spinning the alternator which is charging the batteries and usually producing hot water. So can that be calculated as domestic use?

 

...and any time your gear selector is in neutral (whilst in a lock, waiting for same, etc) your use is entirely domestic as you're not being propelled^*.

 

^*or, as the common term for your back fan is a "screw", then perhaps I should say "you're not being screwed", which would open up a new can of worms.

[mayalld]

But whilst underway the engine is still spinning the alternator which is charging the batteries and usually producing hot water. So can that be calculated as domestic use?

 

Based on empirical measures (mainly looking at how long it takes for the voltage indicator to settle back to 13.2 rather than 14) I work on the basis that for the first 4 hours of cruising each day we are using an extra half litre every hour for non-propulsion use.

[David Schweizer]

But whilst underway the engine is still spinning the alternator which is charging the batteries and usually producing hot water. So can that be calculated as domestic use?

Up to a point the answer is yes. I seem to remember ChrisW (whatever happened to him?) producihg a very complicated formula, calculating how much fuel was used generating power whilst the boat was in motion, based upon increased loads. He based the calculations on his own set up which uses an Alternator Controller as part of the charging regime, but the fuel used for generation figures, whilst cruising, soon mounted up.

[soldthehouse]

Nice one . BOB

As much as I am against heavy taxation, these boatyards are making a healthy profit against the wholesale price of diesel. But dictating the split only attracts attention they should have the commonsense to be happy to make an inflated profit when compared to other fuel sales and only have themselves to blame when it blows up in their face. what it boils down to is not being able to be bothered to do the varying paperwork, which one poster has already said is relatively small compared to the turnover invovled. Again let nobody be under any illusion red diesel at 99p litre is very profitable

[mayalld]

Exactly! Isn't the point that BSP was happy to pay whatever, but she PAID 100%, not 60/40 YET the paper work said she paid 60/40 and the PRICE on the paper work declaring what she had paid SAID 60/40

 

So... surely the paper work should match what you actually paid irrespective of what the boatyard enforces. IF a marina want to do 60/40 and you dont want to pay that is fine, but surely one shouldn't be expected to pay 100%, declare 60/40 when they were told 60/40 wasn't an option.

 

Who gets the spare tax that BSP HAD to pay but wasn't allowed to declare

 

BSP isn't complaining about the price, she is complaining that the paperwork didn't match the price!!!!

 

Maybe it was a mistake, but I certainly wouldn't be happy with the situation. I am not sure why it is so complicated to work out the proportion. Xpence for propulsion, X pence for generating. It is simply mathematics and with a calculator it should be easy enough, and VERY simple with a spread sheet and most marina offices have a computer or a calculator.

 

Yes, it is reasonably simple maths, but boatyards are often employing people on minimum wage with no qualifications, and may not feel they can rely on such people to get it right

 

As much as I am against heavy taxation, these boatyards are making a healthy profit against the wholesale price of diesel. But dictating the split only attracts attention they should have the commonsense to be happy to make an inflated profit when compared to other fuel sales and only have themselves to blame when it blows up in their face. what it boils down to is not being able to be bothered to do the varying paperwork, which one poster has already said is relatively small compared to the turnover invovled. Again let nobody be under any illusion red diesel at 99p litre is very profitable

 

If the 99p a litre is 60/40, no it isn't!

[soldthehouse]

Yes, it is reasonably simple maths, but boatyards are often employing people on minimum wage with no qualifications, and may not feel they can rely on such people to get it right

 

 

 

If the 99p a litre is 60/40, no it isn't!

It is not brain surgery