Fridges (again)

[ditchcrawler]

I think you will find the "thing " you turned to max is in fact the stat and not a timer, of course I could be wrong.

You could be right, but I can't find it.

[Mat B]

You could be right, but I can't find it.

 

It's usually attached to the back of the knob

[niloc]

My new [old] boat has a gas fridge,Electrolux. Bit small but works fine, really does save on diesel and pointless engine wear. Have gas detectors fitted. Will post how long a 13kg bottle lasts. [ My concern is running the engine just to charge batteries ]

[ditchcrawler]

It's usually attached to the back of the knob

I know wher it normally is, but mine is not there

[Naughty Cal]

My new [old] boat has a gas fridge,Electrolux. Bit small but works fine, really does save on diesel and pointless engine wear. Have gas detectors fitted. Will post how long a 13kg bottle lasts. [ My concern is running the engine just to charge batteries ]

 

But surely whilst cruising the batteries are being charged anyhow and you are wasting gas

[tomandsophie]

My new [old] boat has a gas fridge,Electrolux. Bit small but works fine, really does save on diesel and pointless engine wear. Have gas detectors fitted. Will post how long a 13kg bottle lasts. [ My concern is running the engine just to charge batteries ]

 

We have a 4-year-old gas fridge (Dometic - Electrolux's replacement as far as I know) and we use 19kg bottles of gas. We also cook with a gas oven and hobs. Each 19kg bottle lasts 6-7 weeks. Having the gas fridge means that we don't have to run our engine at all to charge the batteries as our 124w of solar power takes care of that. I guess if we had an electric fridge we'd probably have to run the engine at least an hour a day, using around £15 worth of diesel a month, so in terms of cost (diesel vs gas) it would probably work out about the same, but it's so nice not to have to run the engine unless we're actually moving.

[Gibbo]

We have a 4-year-old gas fridge (Dometic - Electrolux's replacement as far as I know) and we use 19kg bottles of gas. We also cook with a gas oven and hobs. Each 19kg bottle lasts 6-7 weeks. Having the gas fridge means that we don't have to run our engine at all to charge the batteries as our 124w of solar power takes care of that. I guess if we had an electric fridge we'd probably have to run the engine at least an hour a day, using around £15 worth of diesel a month, so in terms of cost (diesel vs gas) it would probably work out about the same, but it's so nice not to have to run the engine unless we're actually moving.

 

Agreed. That's the whole point of the excercise. But without the (very real) risk of killing anyone with carbon monoxide.

 

Gibbo

[alan_fincher]

That's the whole point of the excercise. But without the (very real) risk of killing anyone with carbon monoxide.

 

Gibbo

But can you point me at just one single established incident of anybody who has died aboard a UK based canal boat at a result of carbon monoxide poising from a properly installed and maintained LPG fridge.

 

I'm not saying it hasn't happened, just that everybody says it does, but nobody ever seems to be able to find details of even one single incident.

 

I have asked the same question several times before, including to Rob as the BSS, but still await case details from anyone who knows one.

 

I can't see how anybody can say there is a "very real" risk of killing someone with carbon monoxide from an LPG fridge, unless you can demonstrate it's something that has actually occured.

 

I'd be reasonably confident that CO from solid fuel stoves on boats has caused more deaths, but I suspect you may well use one of those ?

 

Note:

 

I don't count any CO deaths, fridge or otherwise, where people have chosen to screw down all cabin mushrooms, and stuff their old socks and underwear into cabin vents to block air-flow, thus turning their boat into a hermetically sealed large coffin. Any of us could kill ourselves by a variety of means if we made a point of being so stupid. I'm talking about cases where the basic safety rules have not been blatantly broken.

[thenightowl]

Those of us with electric fridges know that they are probably the biggest drain on power. Those with gas fridges don't have this problem. But some of us with electric fridges won't consider a gas fridge. This group includes me who lost a friend as a result of CO from a gas fridge.

 

But they are a pain for power. So here's what I'm contemplating..........

 

A good quality cool box. A small freezer (maybe very high power) only running when the engine is running. Fill it with cool packs. Use the cool packs in the cool box.

 

Anyone done anything similar?

 

Gibbo

 

Gibbo,

 

When I've been near a supermarket overnight, I go in and place items that I need like water and milk and bury them deep in the freezer. Then return the next day and purchase them, always good to see the confused look at the checkout when they see frozen water/milk. Keeps the coolbag cold for 24 hours.

 

Peter

[Gibbo]

But can you point me at just one single established incident of anybody who has died aboard a UK based canal boat

 

Why? Do they have different laws of biology and physics in other countries?

 

I know of one perosnally but am not prepared to disclose details. Other people are welcome to use a gas fridge. I wouldn't have one on my own boat.

 

Gibbo

[smileypete]

Those of us with electric fridges know that they are probably the biggest drain on power. Those with gas fridges don't have this problem. But some of us with electric fridges won't consider a gas fridge. This group includes me who lost a friend as a result of CO from a gas fridge.

 

But they are a pain for power. So here's what I'm contemplating..........

 

A good quality cool box. A small freezer (maybe very high power) only running when the engine is running. Fill it with cool packs. Use the cool packs in the cool box.

Think I'd rather use a fridge with a built in freezer compartment, saves moving stuff around.

 

Also possibly make/use a 'eutectic plate' (google) which is like a fancy icepack.

 

If I had a gas fridge etc I'd get one of those CO alarms with a built in display, well worth it.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited June 25, 2009 by smileypete

[WotEver]

If you can get to the internal stat, a second stat may not be absolutely necessary. Just fix a smallish resistor to the tip/bulb of the stat and pass a current through it.

 

This will make the fridge 'think' it's warmer than it is, and switch on. With a bit of luck it might only need say 0.5W to drop the fridge temperature by a few degrees.

 

The resistor can be connected to the ignition/accessory feed, or even directly to the output of a solar array. With the right blocking/dropping diodes, it could be set up to boost fridge cooling when the engine is running, or the solar panels are getting bright sun.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

 

That's quite a 'cool' idea (sorry for the bad pun). I did similar many years ago in the disco at Summerland on the Isle Of Man (not the one that burned down; the replacement) where I Araldited some wirewound ceramics to the frames of the speakers inside the cabs and fed those with an old 6V heater transformer (valves - old-fashioned things that used to light up the back of your wireless) to keep the damp away from the paper cones when the disco was closed out of season.

 

Gee, what a long sentence.

 

Tony

[mrsmelly]

Why? Do they have different laws of biology and physics in other countries?

 

I know of one perosnally but am not prepared to disclose details. Other people are welcome to use a gas fridge. I wouldn't have one on my own boat.

 

Gibbo

 

Hi

 

More people have died walking across the road since the start of this thread than will die in the next 10 years by fridge poisoning on inland waterways.....

[alan_fincher]

Why? Do they have different laws of biology and physics in other countries?

 

I know of one perosnally but am not prepared to disclose details. Other people are welcome to use a gas fridge. I wouldn't have one on my own boat.

Does your boat have a solid fuel stove, (and do you use it), please ?

 

If "no", I'll let you off!

[Naughty Cal]

Hi

 

More people have died walking across the road since the start of this thread than will die in the next 10 years by fridge poisoning on inland waterways.....

 

Or by drinking and driving their boat

[Phil Ambrose]

Those of us with electric fridges know that they are probably the biggest drain on power. Those with gas fridges don't have this problem. But some of us with electric fridges won't consider a gas fridge. This group includes me who lost a friend as a result of CO from a gas fridge.

 

But they are a pain for power. So here's what I'm contemplating..........

 

A good quality cool box. A small freezer (maybe very high power) only running when the engine is running. Fill it with cool packs. Use the cool packs in the cool box.

 

Anyone done anything similar?

 

Gibbo

For what it's worth a few years ago I made a very large chilly bin out of 2 plastic boxes, one fitting inside the other. The space between the boxes was packed with 25mm polystyrene and the lid was also lined. Just to finish it off I pumped in expanding foam.

The point of this was to transport frozen tripe around in my van, even at the end of the day it was still rock hard. Though I had better mention the tripe was dog food as I had a home delivery round going.

 

Phil

[sueb]

For what it's worth a few years ago I made a very large chilly bin out of 2 plastic boxes, one fitting inside the other. The space between the boxes was packed with 25mm polystyrene and the lid was also lined. Just to finish it off I pumped in expanding foam.

The point of this was to transport frozen tripe around in my van, even at the end of the day it was still rock hard. Though I had better mention the tripe was dog food as I had a home delivery round going.

 

Phil

We fed our dog tripe until we moved onto a boat

Sue

[MikeV]

My experience of our 12V Shoreline fridge which has a Danfoss compressor is that it is extremely efficient. When it's running it consume 3.2amps and even in this recent heatwave it has had no problem in keeping food cold. In fact we only have the thermostat set on 1.5 and it goes up to 6.

 

I don't know what the duty cycle is over a day but I've noticed even at the hottest part of the day it is still cycling off and on. We rarely drop below 75% SoC on a 440AH bank even when we've not cruised for a day, and that includes fridge, lighting, laptops, and a little TV and inverter use. We also benefit from my wife's paranoia that there might not be a shop near the canal, so the fridge is always full to capacity. I'm sure we could live for 3 weeks off the fridge contents without ever shopping again!!

 

I would have thought circa 160W of solar panels would more convenient (if rather more expensive) and easily keep a fridge powered through the summer when the duty cycle would be higher. In the winter I guess the energy consumption would be a function of how much you heat your boat!

[CampinGazz]

ive got the big shoreline fridge freezer, that bugger pulls 9 amps when upto full speed (compressor soft starts, takes about 20 seconds to get upto full speed) and it runs on average 14 minutes on, 35 off,

 

to run this i needed to fit 370 watts of solar panels (to allow for not to perfect sunny days and give me more charge than the fridge takes) and i had a 460 Ah battery bank, which was fine untill it had done 50 cycles, then it went rapidly down hill from then on, but that;s standard leisure type batteries,

i'm fitting my new proper deep cycle batteries now, 700 Ah worth, hopefully that'll keep us going like we did before, not having to worry about power, just use it as we please.

 

the solar panels were all that kept us going the past few months with the dying battery bank, as long as we had a sunny day, we could last the next day, but a cloudy day, and unless the next was perfectly sunny, we'd have to run the genny.

 

but like i say, that's dying batteries, i used one to run just the fridge last night as i dont have my new 6 volters connected up yet, had been on the sterling 20 amp charger for 3 weeks, so was fully charged, connected the fridge to it at 11pm last night, at 14:00 the next day the fridge was flashing the low voltage shut down led, battery was at 11.5 volts no load, dropping to below 9 when the fridge tried to start, if i was good at maths i;d work out how little capacity was left in the old batteries from that.

 

A friend in america has one of the latest 12 volt fridges, the compressor dosent work via a piston being moved up and down by a con rod and crank shaft turned by a motor, instead they have the piston in a cylinder, but a couple of electro magnets move the piston, like a linear actuator works,

supposed to be ultra efficiant and very very quiet, and of course one moving part, he did say it was eye wateringly expensive tho.

[WotEver]

if i was good at maths i;d work out how little capacity was left in the old batteries from that.

 

Or you'd buy a Smart Gauge and save yourself the maths

[CampinGazz]

i will be getting asmart gauge sometime,

 

but it could only tell me what i already know, those old batteries are knackered, i put another one in last night, same arangement... single 115 AH batterye running onkly the fridge, fully charged and been on float charge for 3 weeks, so was deffo full.

 

this un lasted from 14:30 till 09:30 the next day, reading 11.2 volts idle, below 9 loaded again, and the damn 'charge indicator magic eye' thing was still showing green on that battery, at least the other one had gone red.

[MikeV]

ive got the big shoreline fridge freezer, that bugger pulls 9 amps...

.....if i was good at maths i;d work out how little capacity was left in the old batteries from that.

Using Gibbo's spreadsheet a 9amp load will flatten a 'good' 115AH battery in 11.17 hours.

 

Of course if you had two or more batteries you'd benefit from the Peukert's Law so:

2 x 115AH would last 27.15 hours

3 x 115AH would last 46.6 hours

4 x 115AH would last 67.73 hours

Obviously the duty cycle of a fridge should be less than 100% so you could achieve considerably longer use from a fully charged set.

[nb Innisfree]

Or you'd buy a Smart Gauge and save yourself the maths

 

Problem is SG will only work if batts still have 50% or more of their capacity left. I have 8x120AH batts which I guess have less than half that capacity left, which renders my recently purchased SG useless until I replace batts which, due to being a large bank, are still supplying our daily requirements with only 2hrs or less engine running per day

[David Schweizer]

Personally we have never had a problem with 12v fridge flattening the batteries. We have an ancient Engel fridge on our boat which draws about 7amps when it is on. We run it on full when cruising and turn it down to half when moored, we normally cruise for an average of 6 hours each day, which means that the fridge is operating for 75% of the time without any charge going into the batteries.

 

We have been operating this regime for twelve years and have yet to suffer from flattened batteries. I have read many post in the past that suggest that I will destroy my batteries because they are never being fully charged, but the evidence suggests otherwise. We have two 6v 240amp extra deep cycle batteries, a 55amp alternator on a 3 to 1 pulley ratio, and a Sterling Advanced Alternator controller. Collectively they seem to cope perfectly well with the fridge load.

Edited July 6, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Bat & Frog]

I am just starting my fit out and while considering whether to get gas or electric fridge came across this from BSS in sept 2008. Has there been any gas fridge produced since this was published which would be suitable for boat use.

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/...fingSep2008.pdf

 

Selecting refrigeration appliances for boats

Anyone who is selecting a new fridge or considering installing a caravan LPG fridge is

advised by the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) to avoid a gas appliance and to select an

electric fridge instead.

The advice is prompted by the withdrawal of Dometic (Electrolux) from the LPG fridge

market for inland boats and the BSS has not been able to find any other LPG fridges

manufacturers providing a product sold as suitable for boat installation.

Current LPG caravan fridge models are designed to be installed within a purpose-built

enclosure in a caravan or motor home, sealed from the accommodation space and

accessible only from outside of the vehicle, thus helping to reduce the potential for

carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning or gas explosions.

The BSS recently found a brand new LPG caravan fridge at risk of causing a fire

because the non-standard installation placed the burner flame very close to the boat's

carpet fibres. And because of the home-made extended flue, there was a medium term

risk of CO poisoning once rust or other deposits fell onto the burner potentially leading

to incomplete combustion and resulting CO.

The manufacturer was also concerned to learn about this installation as it believed that

the fridge presented a further risk of CO poisoning because the appliance was not

room-sealed from the accommodation space as required by the product instructions.

It is now unlikely that a registered gas installer will now agree to fit a gas fridge in a

boat, because there are no LPG fridges sold as suitable for boat installation. Competent

BSS media briefing September 08 Page 3 of 6

appliance installation is a key safety consideration and DIY gas appliance installation

should be avoided.

When selecting a fridge, boaters are advised to follow boat builders and hire operators

who have moved exclusively to electric powered refrigeration and there is no doubt that

electric units should be regarded as ‘the norm’ on boats. Anyone buying a new fridge

should get the best advice from suppliers so owners select the most suitable electric

refrigeration appliances for their needs.

For owners of boats with existing, old LPG absorption fridges, Graham Watts, BSS

manager had this advice;

‘It’s crucial to keep up with servicing and maintenance in order to remain safe from the

risk of CO. If the flame on your fridge’s burner looks yellow, or appears to be abnormal

in any way, you need to have competent advice and not use the appliance until it has

been checked over and repaired if necessary.