It all seemed so simple

[Bricksh]

Hello to you all. We are new to the forum.

 

We are a couple who are looking to buy a narrowboat to live on. Selling up etc etc. At the weekend we went to Crick 09 and thought we had it nailed down to a new boat from either, Braidbar, Fernwood or Reading marine.

 

Now looking through this excellent site , I have disovered many opinions favouring many and varied builders, Ian Kemp, Brinklow,etc.

My next stage is to complete a short list of builders and visit them over the next few weeks to secure a slot. So my question is who should I shortlist and who is the best. My main concern is quality not price.

 

Thanks

 

Bricksh

[MikeV]

Welcome to the forum!!

 

It's been said on here before, but I'll say it again: Unless you have a lot of boaty experience you'd be far better off buying second hand first. Get a couple of years experience with the second hand boat and then look to have a new one built.

 

At the moment there are lots of good second hand deals out there. By all means make a short list of builders and then look at second hand examples on the market. You'll get a good idea of how well they've stood up to a few years use and the previous owner will probably give you some insights into their reason for buying from the builder, their experiences with the boat, and why they are selling.

 

The three you mention all build a nice boat, but you'll probably find your ideas of what you need change once you've had a few years boating!

[Bricksh]

Welcome to the forum!!

 

It's been said on here before, but I'll say it again: Unless you have a lot of boaty experience you'd be far better off buying second hand first. Get a couple of years experience with the second hand boat and then look to have a new one built.

 

At the moment there are lots of good second hand deals out there. By all means make a short list of builders and then look at second hand examples on the market. You'll get a good idea of how well they've stood up to a few years use and the previous owner will probably give you some insights into their reason for buying from the builder, their experiences with the boat, and why they are selling.

 

The three you mention all build a nice boat, but you'll probably find your ideas of what you need change once you've had a few years boating!

 

MikeV

 

Thanks . I haven't much experience of Narrow boats but have had a smaller boat before. I understand your point about second hand market, but would ideally like to buy a new or nearly new boat if I can identify the right builder.

 

I may be cash strapped after the first boat

 

Bricksh

[sueb]

MikeV

 

Thanks . I haven't much experience of Narrow boats but have had a smaller boat before. I understand your point about second hand market, but would ideally like to buy a new or nearly new boat if I can identify the right builder.

 

I may be cash strapped after the first boat

 

Bricksh

All the more reason not to sell up. Take in lodgers and get a loan if necessary. Buying a new boat that you think is the way you want it and then deciding it isn't could be an expensive mistake.

Sue

[bag 'o' bones]

Having a boat built for leisure use and then finding it 'not quite right' can be lived with. Having a live aboard boat built and then discovering your 'dream boat' is not fit for purpose or in the worst case scenario finding that living aboard life is not quite what you imagined is a recipe for financial and emotional disaster. Take head of the advice on this forum.

[Bricksh]

Which builders would you recommend for new or secondhand then? As I said before, getting a high quality boat is my priority.

 

Bricksh

[Guest]

Bricksh - Welcome to the forum

 

you've just opened a massive can of worms - opinions on here about who builds the best boats are wide and diverse to say the least.

 

You probably won't get any one particular builder come to the fore at all. Of the boats at Crick you mentioned yes they were very nice and that would indicate you are inclined more towards a 'modern' rather than 'traditional' look/feel - confirming this will hopefully avoid you with being bombarded with names of builders not building to your particular style.

 

There were also a lot of builders who did not or do not come to Crick - most yards will however be more than happy for you to visit them by appointment to see boats under construction, some also run open days - details can often be found on websites if they have them (Kingsground who exhibited one of our favourite boats at the show) are holding one. This will allow you the opportunity of judging if you can entrust your money to somebody in a less busy environment than Crick - having a boat built to order can be a long term relationship - a lot of advice I have received has been about making sure it's a relationship you will be happy with.

[Chertsey]

Here's my two penn'orth, which is mostly to precis what has been said over the years on here.

 

Firstly, builders - there are, if you like, leagues. Kemp, Brinklow and probably less than half a dozen others build accurate replicas of old boats - or as accurate as you can get. They are beautiful, hand crafted, very slow and eye-wateringly expensive.

 

Then there are the first division, if you like, probably including those you were looking at at Crick. Good looking boats (mostly), often with more than a nod to history, and again, obviously top quailty and not cheap.

 

Then there are builders of good solid quality boats, but perhaps without the aesthetic touches. This might be what you are looking for, especially if, as a liveaboard, space is more important than style. Some of these will be lesser known names.

 

Then there are 'production line' boats, of whose quality there have been mixed reports.

 

There are too many names to name names, but you will get a good idea from looking at the ads.

 

BUT and this cannot be stressed enough, if you are still at this early stage of your researches, it is far too early to be placing an order. The advice to buy second hand is very, very sound and you would be unlikely to regret it.

 

Firstly, you will very probably not lose much or even any money with a second hand boat over two or three years. Many members of this forum have even made a profit on their first boat.

 

Only once you are on the water will you really be able to see what other boats are like, and put names to the different builds. You will meet other boaters and get to see their boats and pick up all sorts of ideas. You will learn what you really want and need in your own boat which you will never guess while living on the land.

 

You might even find your dream boat on the second hand market. There are a hell of a lot out there to choose from, and you would get much more quality for the same money compared to buying new.

[onthecut]

Hi Bricksh,

 

Sorry to add to the list of those pushing you in the s/h direction, but they are all spot on. No matter how well you think you know what you want in a boat, a decent period of actual use will throw up numerous things you may not have previously considered or fully appreciated the importance of.

 

Any boatbuilder of consequence will know within a minute or two whether you actually know what you are talking about and if they realise you don't, you are more likely to be gently steered toward their standard build (ever so plausibly), than the bespoke item you presumably have in mind.

 

Buy a used one, cruise it, look at loads of boats on the way, talk to the owners and you will acquire invaluable experience and ideas, which will not only help you choose a builder and idealised layout, but also monitor the build as it progresses.

 

Oh --- and enjoy !!

 

Mike.

[sueb]

A secondhand boat won't suffer from the boat builder going bust halfway through and you losing your money.

Sue

[PaddingtonBear]

Also not forgetting that any builder or fitter worth their salt have a very long lead time even now and so you could be enjoying the waterways, learning from the best teacher - experience and you never know you might completely revise your view on what you need - it is not unknown . One name that always crops up when discussing high quality is Graham Edgson at Norton Canes - look at Dave Moore's 'Resi' but what you should do first is to get to see as many boats as you can and visit as many brokers, marinas and just walk up and down the tow path chatting to boaters (you won't be able to shut up most of them). Finally, recognise that many of the 'dream' boats that have featured recently in the canal mags. end up for sale a few months later for around half the price that they cost to build so unless you can afford it take your time and be prepared to change your mind.................................. don't forget there are very few 'boat builders' that do it all, most are either shell builders or boat fitters................ and then there are toilets, engines, galvanic isolators, elecktrickery, generators, inverters, solar panels, wood vs steel, (that is for Carl), moorings vs CCing, wide or narrow, (this is not a decision- always narrow:)), length, surveyors...............so you have only just dipped your tow in - a very good luck to you. BTW the Great Helmsman and I did none of these things

[Chertsey]

Well, we did buy second hand. And out third second hand boat, having had a bit of modification, is perfect for our requirements...

[MoominPapa]

third second hand boat, having had a bit of modification, is perfect for our requirements...

Hoorah!

 

MP.

[PaddingtonBear]

Maybe or possibly probably

[carlt]

In your opening post you mention Ian Kemp, Brinlow, etc.

 

I can tell you that, on the quality question, you can get as good but you won't find better.

[stickleback]

MikeV

 

Thanks . I haven't much experience of Narrow boats but have had a smaller boat before. I understand your point about second hand market, but would ideally like to buy a new or nearly new boat if I can identify the right builder.

 

I may be cash strapped after the first boat

 

Bricksh

 

There are a lot of nearly new 2cnd hand boats about - visit Whilton, Braunston, Blisworth marinas and have a good old gander. Couple near me on the marina my boat is on have just changed their 2cnd hand for another and it is super. You probably won't lose if you go through one or two - and you may well find your dream on the way!

 

Good luck.

 

Stickleback

[dor]

There are a lot of nearly new 2cnd hand boats about - visit Whilton, Braunston, Blisworth marinas and have a good old gander. Couple near me on the marina my boat is on have just changed their 2cnd hand for another and it is super. You probably won't lose if you go through one or two - and you may well find your dream on the way!

 

And the reason therre are so many nearly new second hand boats out there is because so many people think living on a boat is the ultimate dream, then find the reality is somewhat different. THere are two things to consider: the boat, as has been said, you need one that is right for your needs. Secondly boating. It doesn't suit everyone, no matter how sure they are that it is what they want to do.

 

So heed the advice, don't go overboard (ha ha pun!) on the first boat; buy something of decent size but modestly priced and find out if boating suits you first. The mooring goes with you, not the boat, so you won't have a problem swapping over if you do decide to go all the way and commission your own boat. Meanwhile you may well see something which is exactly what you want.

[Lady Muck]

It is true about wanting to change stuff - we are now three years aboard and even now we are thinking of things that need modifying. I don't think I could sell this boat coz I'm a bit sentimental, but I think there will be quite a bit of refitting and welding to do!

[bottle]

All above posts are very sensible and I would not disagree with any of them but...............................................

 

I have sold my house and all my belongings that just cluttered up the place and hopefully go 'liveaboard' next month.

 

Absolutely brand new boat from one of the builders first mentioned, by the way they fitout the boat they do not build the shell, have experienced (many years of hiring in all weathers).

 

Just the other side of the discussion.

 

Are we mad probably but we aim to happy as well.

 

Good luck in your search.

[Dominic M]

Hi bricksh

 

If it is all new to you by and large the second hand option is a wise decision (yes, of course I will say that, but I do genuinely believe it to be the right route to go). Why? Because you probably have a clear idea at the moment as to exactly how you want the boat laid out. Unless you are exceptional, within a year you will have wished you had done a whole number of things on the boat differently. If you bought new and decide to sell, as a measure of a depreciation knock off at least the VAT element the moment you sail off on it. And just like a car, the more expensive the boat the worse the hit. In my business, when boats get above, say, £75,000, you are in territory where there will be only a few likely buyers, because at that level people are 90% of the way to having one built new instead. Those buyers do exist - I sold a boat for over £100k a month ago, and bargeeboy (as he is known to this forum) sold one priced at £150k. But it is a thin market at that level, especially at the moment.

 

For between £50k and £70k you will, without any doubt, find a boat that probably meets a lot of your requirements, and looks extremely good (as it should for that money). You can find a perfectly adequate, even very good, boat for quite a lot less of course - but it won't be quite so shiny and new probably.

 

And, if you pay the right price, after a year or two, based on historical performance, if you change your mind you should get most if not all of your money back, even if you get some dodgy old decent broker to act for you. And there is a fair chance you will change your mind. You may decide boating is not for you after all as a long term proposition, or (and it has just happened to two customers of mine who have sold an ultra modern highly specced narrow boat and are buying a portholed tug or trad with a vintage engine and boatman's cabin) you decide you actually want something utterly different.

 

The boats you mention are all by good builders. The biggest problem you will have in putting your question to this, or any forum, is that one man's meat is another man's poison. Welcome to the world where no one can agree about cassette loos or pump outs, bowthrusters, cruiser/semi/trad/narrow beam Dutch barge/tug/kayak etc. And don't even mention lag*r.

 

Not that the question is not worth putting of course - it is, but don't expect unanimity in the responses.

 

I wish you lots of luck and a happy ending.

 

Dominic

[bargeeboy]

There are a lot of nearly new 2cnd hand boats about - visit Whilton, Braunston, Blisworth marinas and have a good old gander. Couple near me on the marina my boat is on have just changed their 2cnd hand for another and it is super. You probably won't lose if you go through one or two - and you may well find your dream on the way!

 

Good luck.

 

Stickleback

So does Narrowcraft !!

 

And we do guaranteed buy back !!

Edited June 1, 2009 by bargeeboy

[Bricksh]

Wow, Thanks for all the replies my heads spinning.

 

We would certainly consider s/h if we came across something we really liked and there are many valid reasons as to why we could/should probably do that. Not least a fear of someone going bust if we do go down the new route.

 

Timing wise I am probably looking at 18 months to 2 years, which for some builders is probably too short. So yes maybe getting s/h and then waiting for longer is a way to go. But then again with so many boats for sale how long would it take to sell the boat if needed to finance a new build. We don't really want to end up with two (mind would give us loads of room for storage then!)

 

Thanks again

 

Bricksh

[Bricksh]

After a couple of glasses of wine the head spinning is now in tune with the body.

 

On the subject of s/h boats. When I sold my last boat (yacht not narrow) I advertised on the basis of an expected 10% negotiation on price. Would you think this is a fair expectation in the current climate or could we be looking to drive a harder deal? Where are the better buys private vs broker? What are the pitfalls to be aware of RCD etc.

 

On the subject of new boats - are there any classic signs of a struggling yard where it would be wise not to invest?

 

On the subject of lager - it certainly merited consideration once the real ale had been sold out at crick. Fortunately there were still alternatives.

 

On the subject of whether or not boating will be for us - I really hope so. We have been considering this now for a couple of years, but I know you don't really know until you've tried something and I really appreciate peoples concern as to our entry into the contact sport that is narrow boat ownership. For us this will be a major lifetyle change, but I believe we have come to a realisation that this is something we really want to do.

 

Bricksh

[Byeckerslike]

We've been well satisfied with our s.h. narrowboat, a 57' trad, built by Colecraft. it is 12 years old now and the hull is fine, detail work well executed, with (to my eyes, at least) pleasing lines.

 

Rob

[matty40s]

go 2nd hand,

 

I jumped in 12 months ago and looked high and low and became narrowboateyed!!

I looked all over and eventually plumped for something 2nd hand, looked after, fairly liveaboardish, and adaptable (with a glorious engine). I visited lots of brokers and can recommend Braunston and ABNB in particular(bought from ABNB paulmudie and barry in the end,who helped from start to finish and afterwards(that's another story!!)).

I have been able to learn and start to adapt the boat to my needs, and also put 600 cruising hours on the clock without worrying too much as to whether I have scratched a mirror finish paint job or spilt a glass of ...er...ribena on the floor.