"Working boat" realities

[County4x4]

Morning all,

 

I've been pondering over this for a while and wondering how best to put it, but I'll give it a go!

 

I've been wondering about the grim realities of operating a working boat in todays economy. My question is basically - "are the modern day working narrow boats (as opposed to craft such as sand and gravel barges operated by larger concerns) actually making a genuine living by plying their trade, or are they more often supplementing an income from elsewhere, whether it be a pension or income from property rental or investments or something else that doesn't need them to be at an office or on a site somewhere on a day to day basis?"

 

I've been looking for all the blogs etc I can find that are written by working boat owners, and so far there has been very little mentioned about the income and expenditure side of things - it tends to be more of a cruise diary. This is why I wondered if these boats were actually viable businesses in their own right, or if the owners were selling coal and diesel here and there to offset some of the costs of cruising. I'm thinking of the "hobby farmer" as a comparison - someone with no need of a true income from a farm who can run it "for fun" almost, without too many concerns about the bottom line. And I suppose what it boils down to is - "is it feasible to establish and operate a working narrowboat in 2009 without a second source of income from elsewhere?"

 

If anyone can point me to any information published by working boat owners dealing with the nitty gritty of business economics rather than accounts of their travels and the people they meet I'd be very interested to read more. I've found that quite a few links on blogs and websites to "working boats" are actually just links to restored working boats now operated as leisure or exhibition craft by people wearing neckerchiefs and waistcoats, rather than actual "doing it for a living" working boats.

 

Any information, pointers or comments gratefully received!

 

Cheers all,

 

Andy

[David Schweizer]

It is possible to make a modest living from operating a working boat. But from those that I have known, it really is a modest income, and there will be little or none left over for savings or luxuries.

 

If you are genuinely interested you could try contacting the Commercial Boat Owners Asssociation, they represent all types of commercial craft owners, but I know that some Working Narrowboat operaters are members.

[County4x4]

Thanks for the reply David - I am genuinely interested but not daft enough to entertain any romantic notions about the idea of running a working boat in order to make a living from it. This is why I've been on the lookout for hard facts and figures rather than cruise diaries, which to be honest, most of the "working boat" blogs and so on tend to be. Not to suggest for a minute that some of these do not make interesting reading - but they rarely seem to mention the business aspects of the operation apart from if they've had to go and collect a few tonnes of coal from the wholesaler one day. This is why I gained the impression that many of these boaters were perhaps just supplementing their cruising costs rather than relying on sales for a full time income. I'll keep looking anyway, and perhaps have a word with the CBOA to see if they can shed any light on the matter.

 

Thanks again for your reply!

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

[furnessvale]

It is possible to make a modest living from operating a working boat. But from those that I have known, it really is a modest income, and there will be little or none left over for savings or luxuries.

 

If you are genuinely interested you could try contacting the Commercial Boat Owners Asssociation, they represent all types of commercial craft owners, but I know that some Working Narrowboat operaters are members.

 

Ir is possible to make a reasonable living from a coal/diesel boat, but it is bloody hard work. I did quite well but I had a pension to fall back on in case it failed. I need not have worried. Without the pension I doubt I would have had the courage to try the job which would have been a pity. Brian, who bought Alton and the business from me, has extended the round and is doing even better.

 

However, if you are seriously going to have a go, the first thing you need is to identify a good pound on which to work. Given lock closures, winter is more important than summer. Such pounds are few and far between and you will probably find an existing supplier on the best ones. It is a free country and you can always go on one of these pounds, but there won't be enough work to keep both of you going, so expect a hard time.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[NB Alton]

Hi, I've only just seen this topic as I've not been on here for a few weeks.

 

Just to support what George has to say really. It is possible to make a living with a coal and diesel trading boat, but it's certainly not going to make you rich! It helps if you can also combine it with another skill ( I make fenders and ropework which combines well with running the boat). You probably won't find much published information regarding the financial realities of running a trading boat as there are only a dozen or so people doing it, all with individual circumstances.

 

As George says, the main thing is to find a reasonable patch to trade where you can gradually build the business, showing people that you will provide a reliable cost effective service. Secondly to get repeat business it's critical that people know when you are delivering, so we run fortnightly on our local round and then every other month on our extended round (texting regular customers beforehand). The third main point in making the business viable is to stock as many supplies as possible that boats will need, Coal and diesel are our obvious sellers but we have extended to include:- logs, eco-logs, kindling, firelighters, elsan blue, pumpout, mooring lines, mooring pins, piling hooks, piling chains, boat poles, shafts, fenders, shackles, chain, Morris's oils & greases, diesel additives, Fertan (rust prevention paint), Brasso, dusters, oil only bilge mats, waterways maps and guidebooks, diesel keys, anti-vandal keys, BW keys, BW service cards, and we now even supply the free Towpath Talk magazine. By stocking these additional items we have much more chance of a sale or increasing the amount of a sale as well as keeping our customers satisfied (if somone asks us to stock something we try are best to do so). Finally many people see us working on a sunny day think we have a wonderful job, but soon change there mind when they see us hanging off the side of a boat doing a pumpout whilst it's blowing a gail or snowing! having said that it's my dream job and I wouldn't change it for the world.

 

If you want more information feel free to PM me or come up and see us on the Peak Forest or Macc.

 

Cheers, Brian

[valrene9600]

I took on diesel on the Maccie from NB Alton. What could be better than buying fuel from a 1930`s built boat when not only is the owner Brian a nice bloke but as he pulls away he said "thanks for your business". I don`t need any fingers to count the times a land based fuel supplier has said that to me.

[WJM]

Think of what you can realistically turn over. I would have thought £1,200 a week sales would be about it. 48 productive weeks a year gives you £58k. Take out half of that for costs and personal tax. So you get £29k. For some people that will stack up, for others it will be a total waste of time.

[Dominic M]

I've always bought my coal & diesel when I can off the boat that works here in autumn/winter/spring - Ian and Alison on Gosty Hill do the run and they are great to deal with. I can tell you that they work long and hard - many times last winter they came past late into the evening.

[DHutch]

I dont know because ive never done it or really known anyone who does well enought to know, but from what i pick up and hear it can be a bit marginal.

- As said, it all depends on where you after, and what George and Brian are saying makes a lot of sense to me.

- It does have to be one of those things where you get out of it what you put in, not just in time and effort, but thought too.

 

We dont have a need for diesal and i dont expect a coal boat to stock the correct size of Foss Y Fan steamcoal but we do aim to buy our stove fuel from passing boats and while ive never stayed in one place long enough to learn the patterns of them, i would say continuity and reliabilty of supply have to be key.

- If you want to make a success out of it, youve clearly got to make the transition from 'if im desparate and a coal boat passes me at a lock landing i will buy to bags' to 'the coal boat comes every fortnight, and i know when that will be, and have set up to buy coal from him every time he passes such that he is my sole supply except when i have left the area on a cruse' sort of job.

 

Use of texts/emails/online technology has got to be a good idea to.

 

Given then increasly people have internet access from there boat, a website with the details of all the coal boat vendors and there services has to be a good idea. I know theres a thread on here with some details, but what you really want is a proberbly maintained, uptodate, interative, website where at am point in time and space you can put in your location and get a decent answer as to when and who the next coal boat is going to be passing and there contact details such that you can arrange delivary.

 

 

Daniel

[Athy]

Think of what you can realistically turn over. I would have thought £1,200 a week sales would be about it. 48 productive weeks a year gives you £58k. Take out half of that for costs and personal tax. So you get £29k. For some people that will stack up, for others it will be a total waste of time.

 

Wow! £29,000 a year PROFIT??? That's more than twice what I earn. Either a) your figures are very optimistic or where can I find a suitable boat?

[CanalWalker]

Wouldnt it be cheaper and more profitable to have a van rather than a boat?

[bramley]

Wouldnt it be cheaper and more profitable to have a van rather than a boat?

 

 

i dont know, unless you kit it out like the guys on top gear, i dont think a van will float past boats to well.

[mayalld]

Wouldnt it be cheaper and more profitable to have a van rather than a boat?

The beauty of delivering by boat is that you can deliver to all every boat. Deliveries by van will not reach a significant number of boaters who are not within hose distance of a road.

[DHutch]

I gues ulitmatly, that proberbly mainly depends if you charging your hours (moving the boat/van) or not!

 

I would suggest most arnt.

 

 

Daniel

[carlt]

Wouldnt it be cheaper and more profitable to have a van rather than a boat?

Possibly but how many coal boat operators are doing it for profit and how many for love?

[churchward]

Possibly but how many coal boat operators are doing it for profit and how many for love?

Another practical thing about a van V. a boat selling coal etc along the cut is that in the winter I am more likely to notice a boat and flag him down/stop by him and get a bag or two rather than a van tucked away on some side road or wharf. If I was looking for coal without boats I would just stop at a Boatyard/Marina.

 

I suppose it is different if I was a liveaboard and access was OK a van turning up every few weeks may be just right but how much nicer to have a boat stop by every so often get some coal and pick up on the latest gossip?

[andy3196]

Given then increasly people have internet access from there boat, a website with the details of all the coal boat vendors and there services has to be a good idea. I know theres a thread on here with some details,

There is a website listing details at http://www.lock13.co.uk/boats/coaldiesel.htm . It's not complete as Towcester, who I bought some gas from as they left the Braunston show aren't on there. Had I known that I would have got their details and emailed them to the site owner.

 

And I agree that Iain and Alison are lovely people, I passed them earlier and what was going to be a quick "hello" turned into a long chat and equally long play for Bosun and my Lyra, and I'm only an occasional customer as and when I see them out and about.

[PhilR]

Think of what you can realistically turn over. I would have thought £1,200 a week sales would be about it. 48 productive weeks a year gives you £58k. Take out half of that for costs and personal tax. So you get £29k. For some people that will stack up, for others it will be a total waste of time.

 

I'm wondering whether there might be some confusion here with business terminology or whether it was several typos by WJM?

 

Turnover is the total receipts from the sale of goods and services. Gross Profit is turnover LESS the cost of buying the product from the suppliers. At a guess I would have thought that Gross Profit would be in the range of 10 - 15% of turnover? Net Profit will be the remaining profit after deducting all working expenses.

[WJM]

You are right - I meant Gross Profit - ie: what is left after you pay for your materials, £1,200 per week AFTER you have paid for the raw materials. - although Gross Profit is a stupid term because in certain circumstances it may not contain any profit

[CanalWalker]

Possibly but how many coal boat operators are doing it for profit and how many for love?

 

I think for a hobby the boat would be best but for "the grim realities of operating a working boat in todays economy" you would be better off with a van. There arent that many moorings that are inaccessible by road or towpath. And I bet there are more coalyards on the roads than canals. It is easier to deliver to a house with a van than a boat too!

[carlt]

I think for a hobby the boat would be best but for "the grim realities of operating a working boat in todays economy" you would be better off with a van. There arent that many moorings that are inaccessible by road or towpath. And I bet there are more coalyards on the roads than canals. It is easier to deliver to a house with a van than a boat too!

But that would transform the dream of "working a narrow boat" to "being a coal salesman".

 

As an aside, I know of at least 3 coal boat operators who do van deliveries, as well.

 

Iirc Ivor Batchelor provided all the burger vans, in the Daventry area, with their lpg, too.

Edited July 1, 2009 by carlt

[mayalld]

I think for a hobby the boat would be best but for "the grim realities of operating a working boat in todays economy" you would be better off with a van. There arent that many moorings that are inaccessible by road or towpath. And I bet there are more coalyards on the roads than canals. It is easier to deliver to a house with a van than a boat too!

 

There are huge numbers of moorings that are out of reach of a van mounted hose.

[WJM]

Today's working narrowboat has the same fundamental flaw that the narrowboats of the 1960s and '70s had - a road vehicle is infinitely more flexible. If you can absolutely nail a niche market where that flexibility does not matter then you have a business (the Denham gravel run on the Southern GU springs to mind), but if your business is more general and non-niche then the flexibility of a road vehicle will wipe you out every time.

 

In summertime when nobody wants coal, a van can do house moves, sub-contract for a courier firm etc. A narrowboat will simply loose that part of it's business. When the narrowboats were working commercially they spent huge amounts of time tied up 'waiting for orders', hence the wonderful decoration and maintenance, crews with nothing else to do. In today's commercial environment an asset that spends significant time idle is a bad proposition.

[carlt]

So the fundamental reason, for working, is money?

 

I'm afraid I would rather eke out a living, doing something I love, than make a fortune, driving a coal van.

 

The "wonderful decoration" was done by painters, not boatmen waiting for orders.

 

The myth that they spent hours a day waiting for orders, painting castles and making corn dollies dates from when the waterways were dying as a transport system, not because the leisure boaters weren't buying their coal.

[FadeToScarlet]

Today's working narrowboat has the same fundamental flaw that the narrowboats of the 1960s and '70s had - a road vehicle is infinitely more flexible. If you can absolutely nail a niche market where that flexibility does not matter then you have a business (the Denham gravel run on the Southern GU springs to mind), but if your business is more general and non-niche then the flexibility of a road vehicle will wipe you out every time.

 

In summertime when nobody wants coal, a van can do house moves, sub-contract for a courier firm etc. A narrowboat will simply loose that part of it's business. When the narrowboats were working commercially they spent huge amounts of time tied up 'waiting for orders', hence the wonderful decoration and maintenance, crews with nothing else to do. In today's commercial environment an asset that spends significant time idle is a bad proposition.

 

I can see the point in what you're saying- which is presumably why most coal boats don't just sell coal! Fenders, gas, ice creams, diesel, and all the rest of the trade isn't, presumably, seasonal, and which can keep you going over the summer. Diesel, for example, I would imagine is in quite high demand in both winter- for heating- and in summer- for propulsion.

 

I suppose the main argument against a van is that you can't access all waterways customers. With a diesel or coal boat, you can just moor alongside and put the goods across, whereas with a van, there's a lot of towpaths that you won't be able to drive down, which means that your waterways customers would have to moor somewhere with road access- which defeats the whole point, really. Having said that, as Carl pointed out above there's people who use vans as well so as to have the convenience of a boat, AND the flexibility of a van.