EBERSPACHER, WEBASTO, or KABOLA?

[chris w]

My Webasto is also one that runs and runs on red diesel. However, I always buy my red diesel from a busy supplier and never from passing boats or out of the way places. I also service myself it at about 500 hour intervals

 

Chris

[Mac49]

My Webasto is also one that runs and runs on red diesel. However, I always buy my red diesel from a busy supplier and never from passing boats or out of the way places. I also service myself it at about 500 hour intervals

 

Chris

 

At the time I installed my system I felt I had 2 options,

1; Go with red diesel and service regularly (as works for you) but I felt I would have to pay somebody to carry out the servicing as I don't feel competent enough to do it myself (i've since read your excellent guide on this forum but still don't feel confident enough to do it myself without breaking something expensive!).

2; Spend the cost of a service on setting the heater up on kerosene and hopefully reduce the service intervals. As a liveaboard i thought the would get frequent use and therefore require frequent servicing especially after hearing some of the horror stories.

It could be that the people with heaters running happily on red aren't shouting about it (a happy customer tells a friend, an unhappy one tells ten as a mate in retail told me) but I felt it was a bit of a reoccurring theme on here and with people i've spoken to.

As I said before I may not be right and it's just my opinion, I just thought for my situation it seemed to be the easiest solution to a potential problem.

Rick

[boatman7]

Hello

 

I gotta put some C/H in my NB for next winter.

 

So I have done some asking around and these 3 keep coming up EBERSPACHER, WEBASTO, or KABOLA?

 

I want to have radiators and a nice auto system just like gas at home.

 

So what's your thoughts?

 

Biggles

 

I had a Eberspacher for about 5 years and had a lots of problems and gave it away for parts. I fitted a Hurricane heater (made in Canada) supplied by Calcutt Boats and it has been absolutely perfect, plus it will burn a wide variety of fuel grades. My unit is located in the stern area of my semi-trad so the noise levels are fine, if the unit needs to be located inside then check out the noise levels first.

[Phil Ambrose]

refleks diesel stove or solid fuel,,, forget epers and webasto`s forevery 1 person thats had no problems you`ll find 5 that have..

I have lived aboard for 7 years and have a Mikuni (3.5kw) and a Propex (2kw) both are blown air systems.

I have just ordered a Glembring drip feed from Karunda as I wanted something with no moving parts and that used no power.

The reason is that the systems that I already have are always giving me grief one way or another, sometimes one and sometimes the other and occasionally both together. I hate not being able to trust my heaters to do what they are intended to do, HEAT!!!

[sueb]

I have lived aboard for 7 years and have a Mikuni (3.5kw) and a Propex (2kw) both are blown air systems.

I have just ordered a Glembring drip feed from Karunda as I wanted something with no moving parts and that used no power.

The reason is that the systems that I already have are always giving me grief one way or another, sometimes one and sometimes the other and occasionally both together. I hate not being able to trust my heaters to do what they are intended to do, HEAT!!!

I have a very old propex heater in my camper. As it wasn't working and propex said they would give me over £100 in part exchange for a new one we went to Southampton to do a deal. On arrival propex said why don't we look at the old one and repair it, go away for a couple of hours and we will have it sorted. So we did and they did and I now have a working heater for less than a new one. Brilliant I thouraly recommend Propex.

Sue

[Chubby Chaser]

Have just ditched my Eberspacher and substituted a Hurricane. First impressions are very favourable. No noiser than the Eberspacher and lights instantly. If anyone wants a 10kw Eberspacher PM me. Not working at present - hasn't even produced huge clouds of white smoke for a while. I wouldn't mind, but I didn't even get through a tank of fuel after spending £500 plus on repairs the last time.

[canalowl]

Hello

 

I gotta put some C/H in my NB for next winter.

 

So I have done some asking around and these 3 keep coming up EBERSPACHER, WEBASTO, or KABOLA?

 

I want to have radiators and a nice auto system just like gas at home.

 

So what's your thoughts?

 

Biggles

 

I recently replaced my aging Aldi with an Eberspacher D10. Considerations were mainly limited space (Hurricane and Harworth were too big) and usage. I have a solid fuel stove so only need the diesel boiler early in the morning and so far (one winter) it has worked really well. Having a high output it warms the boat and hot water within one hour and doesn't seem to mind being on for longer when needed although I am aware of the red diesel coking up problems if running for too long at low output. I intend to have it serviced each autumn and fingers crossed it should give me long service. Noise is an issue so the further away from the living area the better...

 

Dave

[robkg]

My Webasto is also one that runs and runs on red diesel. However, I always buy my red diesel from a busy supplier and never from passing boats or out of the way places.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Please stop perpetuating the "dirty Diesel" myth as a reason why so many Webastos fail regularly. My experience proves otherwise.

They simply should not be sold into the inland boating market for use on red diesel and the fact that they still are is despicable.

My experience (detailed in my previous posts) along with Paul Sylvan's experiences ought to be enough for a reputable manufacturer or distributer to withdraw these units from this market.

 

Rob

[chris w]

Hi Chris,

Please stop perpetuating the "dirty Diesel" myth as a reason why so many Webastos fail regularly. My experience proves otherwise.

They simply should not be sold into the inland boating market for use on red diesel and the fact that they still are is despicable.

My experience (detailed in my previous posts) along with Paul Sylvan's experiences ought to be enough for a reputable manufacturer or distributer to withdraw these units from this market.

 

Rob

My Webasto runs faultlessly on red diesel, while others seem to have issues allegedly due to red diesel. The difference with my red diesel, as compared to some, is that I buy it exclusively from busy marinas (ie: high turnover of diesel) and no other source.

 

Your "experience" does not "prove" that they won't run on red diesel, it only proves that YOUR Webasto won't run reliably on YOUR red diesel. I also service mine at least once and sometimes twice a year.

 

Chris

Edited April 14, 2009 by chris w

[robkg]

My Webasto runs faultlessly on red diesel, while others seem to have issues allegedly due to red diesel. The difference with my red diesel, as compared to some, is that I buy it exclusively from busy marinas (ie: high turnover of diesel) and no other source.

 

Your "experience" does not "prove" that they won't run on red diesel, it only proves that YOUR Webasto won't run reliably on YOUR red diesel. I also service mine at least once and sometimes twice a year.

 

Chris

Hi Chris,

Of course I cannot prove the reason why every single individual unit has failed in the past, but I do have evidence that dirty diesel is not the cause of rapid carboning up in the case of one of these units.

 

I did not say that my experience proves that they won't run on red diesel. I was making the point that in my experience the cause of the carboning up problems experienced by many users of these units is not down to the fact that the diesel is of suspect quality.

 

I installed my heater from new and throughout it's life I ran it on diesel supplied direct from a national fuel distributor i.e. the fuel I used came direct from a tanker distributing thousands of litres every day. This same company distibutes fuel to at least two inland marinas on a regular basis.

During the life of my heater I tried three batches of fuel from this supplier, all with certificates of conformity, all three caused rapid carboning of the heater's burner.

 

To summarise, my heater never saw dirty, old or untraceable fuel in it's life and yet it had two replacement burners fitted by Webasto UK in it's short (<400 hours) life. Eventually after taking the dealer to court they agreed to settle by refunding the purchase price plus compensation.

 

Given everything that has appeared on this forum (albeit anecdotal) plus Paul Sylvans court victory, are you able to support the view that, despite your apparent satisfaction of your own unit, these heaters could not be described as reliable high quality devices for heating boats on red diesel (as that is what they are sold as being)?

 

Rob

[Biggles]

I have a Webasto in my BMW. I make Biodiesl and use it in my BMW at no more than 20%.

 

The Webasto comes on when the temperature goes below 5c. Usually if the ambient is going to be this or below I don't have Bio in the tank. Occasionally of course I get caught out.

 

The Webasto defiantly doesn't like running on a 20% Bio mix. The car however will run fine.

 

It must be fair to assume that fuel quality must be relevant to the performance of automotive type oil fired heaters.

 

Biggles

[chris w]

Hi Chris,

Of course I cannot prove the reason why every single individual unit has failed in the past, but I do have evidence that dirty diesel is not the cause of rapid carboning up in the case of one of these units.

 

I did not say that my experience proves that they won't run on red diesel. I was making the point that in my experience the cause of the carboning up problems experienced by many users of these units is not down to the fact that the diesel is of suspect quality.

 

I installed my heater from new and throughout it's life I ran it on diesel supplied direct from a national fuel distributor i.e. the fuel I used came direct from a tanker distributing thousands of litres every day. This same company distibutes fuel to at least two inland marinas on a regular basis.

During the life of my heater I tried three batches of fuel from this supplier, all with certificates of conformity, all three caused rapid carboning of the heater's burner.

 

To summarise, my heater never saw dirty, old or untraceable fuel in it's life and yet it had two replacement burners fitted by Webasto UK in it's short (<400 hours) life. Eventually after taking the dealer to court they agreed to settle by refunding the purchase price plus compensation.

 

Given everything that has appeared on this forum (albeit anecdotal) plus Paul Sylvans court victory, are you able to support the view that, despite your apparent satisfaction of your own unit, these heaters could not be described as reliable high quality devices for heating boats on red diesel (as that is what they are sold as being)?

 

Rob

In terms of hard evidence, mine is based on a straw poll of one - my own unit - which does not "rapidly " carbon up. I service mine typically at 500 hour intervals but, based on the amount of carbon inside, I believe that I could go twice this time before servicing. I don't leave it this long however, because I quite enjoy tinkering with things electrical and mechanical.

 

As you rightly say, most of the other "evidence" is anecdotal from people who don't necessarily have a technical grasp of things. They always reckon they are using "clean" diesel but even Gibbo admitted some time back to being caught out by his long-term diesel supplier and eventually put his heating woes down to the quality of the diesel. (He has now changed suppliers and all is well apparently).

 

I am pleased for Paul that he won his case and admire his tenacity and determination in bringing the case; it can't have been an easy time. However, even winning that case, does not prove that all such diesel heaters are unsuitable. It proves that he had issues which were not resolved and, in his case, his diesel heater was not "fit for purpose". Since no appeal was mounted, we shall never know if the judgement would have stood.

 

I beleieve there are a number of factors which contribute to the issues encountered and which none of us yet fully understand. I believe servicing (or lack of it) to be the key one. There are many people with problems and many people with no problems on these types of heater. What I would say is that these heaters are probably impractical as a main source of heat for liveaboards who cannot service the unit themselves. Even servicing at 1000 hour intervals could be as many as 4 services a year for a liveaboard which would be prohibitively expensive for a non-technical boater at several £100's a shot.

 

Chris

[Tiller Slave]

I have in the past used both Ebespacher and Mikuni systems.

 

Mikuni is vastly better largely due to :

 

Lower cost to buy.

Much cheaper spares, and you can change individual minor compoents unlike Epespacher/ Webasto where major (expensive) units need to be changed.

Will start on a lower battery voltage.

Less fussy on fuel quality.

 

BUT with all of these heaters the quality of installation is vital.

Get a an experienced specialist to fit it and the number of problems later falls dramatically.

[chris w]

..............you can change individual minor compoents unlike Epespacher/ Webasto where major (expensive) units need to be changed.

I have no idea about Eberspachers but that statement is not correct about Webastos. Webasto's are easy to service and spares are available on Ebay at low prices. Any bit (large or small, major or minor) can be changed by the owner if he/she so desires.

 

Chris

[bigcol]

Peter thanks for the link, interested in this, been on the site but couldn't find the flag for translation

 

col

Edited December 6, 2013 by bigcol

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hi gang,

Just thought I would add,

I've had both Eberspatcher & Webesto heaters on my various liveaboards in the past,

I must say my personal preference is the webesto.

I have currently got a Webesto 5kw.as our main heating on a 40ft wide beam .it runs on red,straight out the main tank, & 1pint of kerosene run through it a few times a year. I run it the same way I've run all my heaters,2 hrs on,1 hr off ish set via the timer from approx 16:00 through till 12:00 then Then 05:00 till 07,00 in the morning & it loves it,I've had no trouble from it for 6yrs. & I've only serviced it 3 times.

I have to say though, my favorite,most economical & much missed form of heating was my Taylor's drip fed.

[bobbingabout]

My stove experience first was solid fuel loved the smell and the flame tv but was a tad oversized and hard to shut down so was like a blast furnace doors open in the middle of winter. Changed that for a kabola natural draft corner stove attractive stove that used around 40 litres a week great for putting a kettle on top as it would keep it just under the boil so 20 secs on the gas and tea is ready.

No electricity needed to run it nice blue flame.

Current boat has a reflex stove no back boiler nice stove pushes a lot of heat out of the top can boil a kettle on it faster then the hob when the fire is up fairly high to give you an idea of the output. Slightly more economical than the kabola but that is down to better insulation on the boat rather then the fire. The previous owner had a 10 kw eberspacher fitted as well as the reflex for rads and hot water but the unit failed and he binned it (apparently ). I was going to replace this as all the plumbing and electrics are in place just the unit missing but was put off by the cost and the problems that some people had reported as previous owner was only using it to heat water in the summer the 10 kw was more then was needed and not working hard enough from what I've read these thing need to be worked hard that's what I've read not what I know.

So have decided to swap the reflex for a diesel bubble stove with back boiler which we will now be fitting in the spring the bubble is also a gravity fed natural draft I stripped it apart to give it a good clean up and although to begin with it looked a state it come appart very easily I cleaned out the pot and got years worth of carbon out painted and it'd like new. They also have a high low setting so if the water in the back boiler gets to hot it will put it on the low flame or off altogether if need be if my understanding of the instructions a are correct. I have a jabsco circulation pump that you can change the flow rate on so should be able to set it up nicely

It also draws very little power is virtually silent and uses magnets to drive the pump instead of a shaft.

This set up suits us the best and I understand every one is in a different boat we live of grid so reliability and power usage are very important to us.

In an ideal world I would love a solid fuel stove for the flame tv or a set and forget heating system like the land lubbers enjoy but we all have to compromise and the convenience of lighting it and walking away with no interaction is handy it will run 24/7 till it runs out of diesel being fed by gravity.

Gary

Edited December 6, 2013 by bobbingabout

[luggsy]

When I have my 58ft semi trad fitted out it will have a refleks 2000KVT ( back boiler model ) as Main heating with its own fuel tank, backed up with Webasto central heating , we will be living on it full time

[Bee]

Quality of fuel makes little difference. Have had many miserable cold winters in a mobile library with various models of useless Ebers. running on clean white fuel straight from the main tank, the only way we solved it was to specify 2 of the things in a van, use 1 till it failed, take it out and get it fixed then use the other one , Voltage is important, they must have well charged batts, 1) to start up - they use a lot of amps and 2)if the fan starts to run slow they will coke up. They are simply not suitable as main heat sources.

[Tonka]

I am trying to service my Eberspacher D5W Non Hydronic bur it looks as though I need a new casing and heat exchanger. These 2 together come to £200. Bearing in mind this unit was noisy and 20 years old would I be better fitting a new unit but which would be the easiest and best unit to fit Webasto Thermo Top C, Eberspacher D5W Hydronic or Mikuni MX40

[RichardH]

We have just whipped the Eberspacher out of Grace after 10 years service and replaced with a Mikuni MX40. The thing that always used to irritate with the Eber was the need to call the local agent out to reset if it locked out.

[Hawkmoth]

I am trying to service my Eberspacher D5W Non Hydronic bur it looks as though I need a new casing and heat exchanger. These 2 together come to £200. Bearing in mind this unit was noisy and 20 years old would I be better fitting a new unit but which would be the easiest and best unit to fit Webasto Thermo Top C, Eberspacher D5W Hydronic or Mikuni MX40

Get a hurricane.

Bob

[raymondh]

Ebay is a great place to start - I would rate Webasto above Eber for noise, ease of service, re set, parts availability at lower? cost etc

There are a few about for not a lot of money

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Webasto-Thermo-Top-C-reconditioned-DIESEL-WATER-HEATER-12V-new-wiring-loom-/201035376823?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item2ecea468b7

 

If you only pay £150 and it lasts a couple of years still cheap - mine 6 years old Webasto 90 cost £400 re-con never been serviced still going strong but I run it on Kerro

 

Ray

[NMEA]

My two pennyworth as a pro seeing this on a daily basis, conversing with other techs who do the same and attending factory courses attended usually by a pool of upwards of 100+ years experience at a time conversing in the bar of an evening gathers a vast amount of information aside from the course syllabus.

Smaller Eber, Webasto, Mikuni heaters work on the evaporator principle and are not really suited as the sole form of heating for liveaboards, however if installed and serviced correctly they are ideally suited to warming the boat and making hot water for a couple of hours in the morning and evening so you come home to a warm boat. Coking up was exacerbated by the use of high sulphur diesel and we are noting a drop in the incidence since the introduction of ULS red, from large samples not just a few. Poor installs with over long exhausts, insufficiently loaded systems, burning too long on just the calorifier load and the like cause cycling and are to be avoided. Most DIY services are incomplete, they miss the final adjustment of the burn rate (among other things) which is vital and if too rich can lead to premature coking just like running your car all day with the choke half on.

Rotary burners and pressure jet burners like the Kabola are also available from Webasto, Mikuni & Eber, it's just that most people don't know about them and they have the advantage of being cheaper at less than half the cost of the Kabola and also run on DC power, they are used on commercial vessels, trains, and the like so get similar use to liveaboard boats and are proven to be very reliable indeed long term. Bottom line is if you are live aboard and use it a lot (and have the install space) then a rotary or pressure jet is the way to go, but Kabola is not the only choice.

Edited February 23, 2014 by NMEA