Fuel prices

[cotswoldsman]

Therefore all four of you were breaking the law, since it is illegal for him to supply it without a declaration and it is complicity for you to accept it . . . .

But then I don't suppose that worries you if you go it cheaper and you know there is little chance of you being caught. . .

 

We did not realise that we could not make a declaration until we came to pay after the boats had been filled.

 

This too, must be illegal - I wonder if any of you care that you are risking losing all the canalside diesel suppliers?? If these suppliers close down, you will also lose your gas supply and pump-out facilities. . . . How do you fancy carrying gas cylinders and drums of sewage as well as your diesel???

 

But then maybe this is just sour grapes, cos I'm a canalside diesel supplier who is losing business. . . .

 

Don't think it is sour grapes, might be more the realisation that the days when canalside suppliers could charge what they like at whatever price they liked. I personaly don't need a pumpout and as is well recorded on this forum I am very anti self pumpout but again the growth of these discusting things is as a result of canalside suppliers thinking they could charge what they like. there are plenty of places to purchase gas without using a canalside supplier. I also purchase my coal direct from coal merchants.

Some canalside suppliers might well close down if everyone starts buying services elsewhere such is life, I have supported them well in the past but this whole issue of Diesel declaration focused my mind on the fact that most canalside suppliers did not care less about the boaters and were working on the principal of a monopoly suppliers. I will always support Fuel Boats and am happy to pay slightly more to purchase from them and maybe as the canalside suppliers with the old fashioned notion of "i am here to do boaters a favour" close down the Fuel boats will fill the void.

[alan_fincher]

A number of points here:

 

Personally I think if a large number of people take the p*ss over self declaration, (which anecdotally seems to be the current position), then I don't believe that arrangement will continue. That can only be bad for those of us prepared to make an honest declaration, and those who are not prepared to play ball may ultimately end up paying a great deal more.

 

I'd also love to jump in with unqualified support for canal-side fuel vendors, but find myself in difficulty with what has been raised by CanalShop Man at Whilton.

 

His chandlery is a very useful one, and I would hate to see it not there because of lost business for various reasons. It would also be a very useful fill up for us on 'red', and we intended to do so in the summer. But the price there, at 95 ppl, proved to be at least 10p higher than anywhere else, so we pushed on and bought at Calcutt, (83 p, I think). By the time of our return nearly 3 weeks later, we had taken further fills at under 80 ppl, but Whilton was still at 95 ppl.

 

I did at the time post this on a fuel price thread, to give Whilton the chance to respond. I know for example that the price is dictated by the price the last time fuel was bought it, but to be at least 10p to 20p over the odds for at least 3 weeks in peak summer sounds hard to explain.

 

So sorry, if a similar situation existed today, you would not lose my custom on fuel sales for anything to do with the new tax arrangements. It would be solely because the price is not competitive.

 

Alan

[David Schweizer]

Are you sure that should not read "HMRC have a dedicated team of people who work 9-5 and no more 5 days a week with 6 weeks holiday a year and final salary linked pensions who have no desire to wade along muddy towpaths in search of a few pence worth of possible tax avoidance"

Well No, unless the one who sat outside my friend's farm was unique. He stayed there from 10am until 8pm waiting for him to drive his Land Rover onto the muddy country lane!! They are used to having to tramp across fields, and come equipped with thier own wellies!

 

His wait was in vain because there was only white diesel in the tank.

[cotswoldsman]

A number of points here:

 

Personally I think if a large number of people take the p*ss over self declaration, (which anecdotally seems to be the current position), then I don't believe that arrangement will continue. That can only be bad for those of us prepared to make an honest declaration, and those who are not prepared to play ball may ultimately end up paying a great deal more.

 

I'd also love to jump in with unqualified support for canal-side fuel vendors, but find myself in difficulty with what has been raised by CanalShop Man at Whilton.

 

His chandlery is a very useful one, and I would hate to see it not there because of lost business for various reasons. It would also be a very useful fill up for us on 'red', and we intended to do so in the summer. But the price there, at 95 ppl, proved to be at least 10p higher than anywhere else, so we pushed on and bought at Calcutt, (83 p, I think). By the time of our return nearly 3 weeks later, we had taken further fills at under 80 ppl, but Whilton was still at 95 ppl.

 

I did at the time post this on a fuel price thread, to give Whilton the chance to respond. I know for example that the price is dictated by the price the last time fuel was bought it, but to be at least 10p to 20p over the odds for at least 3 weeks in peak summer sounds hard to explain.

 

So sorry, if a similar situation existed today, you would not lose my custom on fuel sales for anything to do with the new tax arrangements. It would be solely because the price is not competitive.

 

Alan

 

Alan I am sure you will find the majority of boaters will be honest about declaration. The problem is the one you have highlighted and that is some canalside suppliers taking the p**s. As I said before I paid just over 0.50 ppl and would be happy to pay the duty on 20% I would even be happy to do the same at 0.65 ppl but the nearest canalside supplier to me at present is 0.84 ppl and here on the LLangollen I am sure the diesel sales must be quite good so should be able to be nearer the 0.60 ppl price. As I said on my original post Canalside suppliers are living in a different world.

[tripitaka]

I tried to declare 60/40 on the Shroppie recently (those who know that cut will probably guess where) only to be told in no uncertain terms "nobody is declaring 60/40 mate!" and was shown the ledger to prove it. The highest declaration for propulsion appeared to be 33%. 0% was not uncommon. Suffice to say I paid less per litre than at any time in the last 18 months!

 

Jim

We are waiting to get there Jim, our favourite stopping place on the Shroppie!! Some marinas started out trying to enforce the 60/40 idiocy and sadly a number of boater we know went along with it. Even when cruising, which we are doing at the moment, we do not manage to do a 60/40. We are declaring 90/10 and that is just about right, even when cruising. OK at this time of year we start late and finish early but nevertheless, 60/40 is just silly!! I don't want to know where the IWA and other "interested" parties got thier information from to declare that 60/40 was about right. They didn't ask me!!!

[RobinR]

We are waiting to get there Jim, our favourite stopping place on the Shroppie!! Some marinas started out trying to enforce the 60/40 idiocy and sadly a number of boater we know went along with it. Even when cruising, which we are doing at the moment, we do not manage to do a 60/40. We are declaring 90/10 and that is just about right, even when cruising. OK at this time of year we start late and finish early but nevertheless, 60/40 is just silly!! I don't want to know where the IWA and other "interested" parties got thier information from to declare that 60/40 was about right. They didn't ask me!!!

Probably the calculation was based on a mix of inland and coastal marinas. I expect coastal craft both use more fuel per hour of use and the sum total of off shore boating is the higher by a significant amount. I have no idea of the actual figures but should costal leisure use account for 90% of fuel on a 90/10 split maybe we need to better estimate the figures for inland - canal specific - use. Have any such statistics been published / proposed?

[dor]

Just for information, Nantwich is charging a base price of 55p/l at the moment and let you declare what you like. nobody has gone above 60/40 (propulsion/heating) and most are 40/60 or less. Local sainsbury's is 99.9 p/l for comparison.

 

I suspect part of the reason for the HMRC suggested 60/40 is to keep the price below the supermarket price for white diesel, to prevent wholesale jerry can filling, and subsequent high risk of spillage and pollution.

[ditchcrawler]

Therefore all four of you were breaking the law, since it is illegal for him to supply it without a declaration and it is complicity for you to accept it . . . .

But then I don't suppose that worries you if you go it cheaper and you know there is little chance of you being caught. . .

 

This too, must be illegal - I wonder if any of you care that you are risking losing all the canalside diesel suppliers?? If these suppliers close down, you will also lose your gas supply and pump-out facilities. . . . How do you fancy carrying gas cylinders and drums of sewage as well as your diesel???

 

But then maybe this is just sour grapes, cos I'm a canalside diesel supplier who is losing business. . . .

 

But are you charging 52p plus a reasonable profit margin for fuel you sell for non propulsion use?

[ditchcrawler]

We are waiting to get there Jim, our favourite stopping place on the Shroppie!! Some marinas started out trying to enforce the 60/40 idiocy and sadly a number of boater we know went along with it. Even when cruising, which we are doing at the moment, we do not manage to do a 60/40. We are declaring 90/10 and that is just about right, even when cruising. OK at this time of year we start late and finish early but nevertheless, 60/40 is just silly!! I don't want to know where the IWA and other "interested" parties got thier information from to declare that 60/40 was about right. They didn't ask me!!!

But it is suppose to be an average so you have to take into account all the boats that only use diesel for propulsion, like those that are on land lines to charge batteries and heat water etc. Day boat that don't moor and charge batteries. Gin palace's that burn a gallon an hour on a Sunday afternoon, etc.

[alan_fincher]

And it's a year round average.

 

So whilst acknowledging that those living aboard in the winter will clearly not be using 60% on propulsion then, we should also note that there are massively more boat movements in the summer, when people will not be using diesel for space heating.

 

To be honest, although I will probably declare 60% propulsion, because there is every indication that will never be challenged, I'd probably be hard pressed to prove that 40% of my fuel is spent on generating and heating water.

 

The figures they were going to use were 80%/20%, and to be fair to boating organisations they did play some part in persuading them that 80% was too high an "average" for propulsion.

[furnessvale]

Well No, unless the one who sat outside my friend's farm was unique. He stayed there from 10am until 8pm waiting for him to drive his Land Rover onto the muddy country lane!! They are used to having to tramp across fields, and come equipped with thier own wellies!

 

His wait was in vain because there was only white diesel in the tank.

 

I don't know why he bothered waiting. Assuming the Land Rover is road legal it is an offence to run it on red diesel even OFF the road so he could have just dipped the tank where it stood.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

 

A number of points here:

 

His chandlery is a very useful one, and I would hate to see it not there because of lost business for various reasons. It would also be a very useful fill up for us on 'red', and we intended to do so in the summer. But the price there, at 95 ppl, proved to be at least 10p higher than anywhere else, so we pushed on and bought at Calcutt, (83 p, I think). By the time of our return nearly 3 weeks later, we had taken further fills at under 80 ppl, but Whilton was still at 95 ppl.

 

I did at the time post this on a fuel price thread, to give Whilton the chance to respond. I know for example that the price is dictated by the price the last time fuel was bought it, but to be at least 10p to 20p over the odds for at least 3 weeks in peak summer sounds hard to explain.

 

Perhaps everyone else was doing what you did and cruising past leaving him with old stock:-)

 

I have occasionally been caught out by a sudden drop in price and have had a "fire sale" at break even or even a loss to clear my stock and start afresh. Some you win, some you lose!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[alan_fincher]

Perhaps everyone else was doing what you did and cruising past leaving him with old stock:-)

 

Well to be fair, I have posted my thoughts on this both at the time, and again now, thereby giving Canal Shop Man every chance to respond.

 

I'd be surprised if he didn't take any delivery in a 3 week peried up to mid August, but i's possible, I suppose.

 

A less charitable explanation might be the large "captive audience" in the Marina, many of whom I suspect rarely venture far enough to find an alternative, (well those 7 locks are quite hard work ).

 

I'd be genuinely interested in the reasons for Whiltons apparently very high pr icings at the time, and I do try and be sympathetic to the plight of canal-side businesses who we all know cannot hope to attract the wholesale prices available to large roadside garages.

 

I do agree with him that large numbers of people who Jerry can in large amounts of "red" for propulsion use, but on which the extra duty has not been paid, do put at further risk the viability of some of the canal-side (and on canal) sellers.

[estwdjhn]

Its not an offence to use a LR round the fields on red - just like any other bit of farm plant or machinery.

Its not an offence to keep such a vehicle in a roadworthy condition

Its not an offence to keep such a vehicle MOTed, or insured.

Its not an offence to keep such a vehicle taxed.

Therefore as far as I can see, you are allowed to fill the tank of a road legal vehicle with red diesel.

 

What is an offence is to drive it on the road with any red in the fuel system, unless it is taxed as "limited milage" and only used under the conditions that are impossed.

 

Hence the man from HMRC had to sit an wait for the driver to venture onto the road.

Edited December 14, 2008 by estwdjhn

[furnessvale]

Its not an offence to use a LR round the fields on red - just like any other bit of farm plant or machinery.

Its not an offence to keep such a vehicle in a roadworthy condition

Its not an offence to keep such a vehicle MOTed, or insured.

Its not an offence to keep such a vehicle taxed.

Therefore as far as I can see, you are allowed to fill the tank of a road legal vehicle with red diesel.

 

What is an offence is to drive it on the road with any red in the fuel system, unless it is taxed as "limited milage" and only used under the conditions that are impossed.

 

Hence the man from HMRC had to sit an wait for the driver to venture onto the road.

 

Sorry, many people think as you do but it just isn't true. Provided the link works have a look at section 2.4

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalW...cument#P40_2616

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Nickhlx]

Sorry, many people think as you do but it just isn't true. Provided the link works have a look at section 2.4

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalW...cument#P40_2616

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

 

Re red for propulsion- where's the harm in buying it off the suppliers by the 1000 litres at ? 35p /litre and sending a cheque off to HMC & E for your declared split ? It's still MUCH cheaper and legal as far as I can see...

 

Nick

[carlt]

Sorry, many people think as you do but it just isn't true. Provided the link works have a look at section 2.4

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalW...cument#P40_2616

 

George ex nb Alton retired

That's really interesting.

 

Thanks for that link!

[furnessvale]

Re red for propulsion- where's the harm in buying it off the suppliers by the 1000 litres at ? 35p /litre and sending a cheque off to HMC & E for your declared split ? It's still MUCH cheaper and legal as far as I can see...

 

Nick

 

Being retired, I haven't studied the fine details of the new system but, whilst you are not "fiddling", you seem to be short circuiting the system. The RDCO is meant to submit the duty, not you. You will cause apoplexy in HMRC:-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[towbarman]

And it's a year round average.

 

So whilst acknowledging that those living aboard in the winter will clearly not be using 60% on propulsion then, we should also note that there are massively more boat movements in the summer, when people will not be using diesel for space heating.

 

To be honest, although I will probably declare 60% propulsion, because there is every indication that will never be challenged, I'd probably be hard pressed to prove that 40% of my fuel is spent on generating and heating water.

 

The figures they were going to use were 80%/20%, and to be fair to boating organisations they did play some part in persuading them that 80% was too high an "average" for propulsion.

HI I THINK ALOT OF YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THE GOVERMENT DID NOT WANT THIS TAX RISE IN MARINE DIESEL AS THERE CASE STUDY DONE ON SOUTH COAST FOR SEA BOATS GAVE THEM A 40MILION A YEAR LOSS IN TAXS EARNED FROM BOATERS GOING FROM PORT TO PORT STOPPING TO SHOP GO TO PUB AND RESTURANTS AND PAY VAT ON GOODS BOUGHT BY RAISING THE TAX US SEA BOATERS WOULD NOT VENTURE AS FAR OR SPEND SO THE SELF DECLARATION IS A WAY ROUND THE PROBLEM FOR US BE GRATEFUL FOR IT THAT WE EVEN GOT IT AND DONT ABUSE IT! BY THE WAY ITS 60/PROP 40 HEATING AND GEN WHY SHOULD I PAY TAXES ON FUEL I BURN 12MILES OF THE ENGLISH COAST IN NO TAX LAND I DONT THINK ITS FAIR WAITING FOR THE BIG RED DIESEL TANKER TO PUT DOWN ANCHOR 12M OFFSHORE CARL

 

And it's a year round average.

 

So whilst acknowledging that those living aboard in the winter will clearly not be using 60% on propulsion then, we should also note that there are massively more boat movements in the summer, when people will not be using diesel for space heating.

 

To be honest, although I will probably declare 60% propulsion, because there is every indication that will never be challenged, I'd probably be hard pressed to prove that 40% of my fuel is spent on generating and heating water.

 

The figures they were going to use were 80%/20%, and to be fair to boating organisations they did play some part in persuading them that 80% was too high an "average" for propulsion.

HI I THINK ALOT OF YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THE GOVERMENT DID NOT WANT THIS TAX RISE IN MARINE DIESEL AS THERE CASE STUDY DONE ON SOUTH COAST FOR SEA BOATS GAVE THEM A 40MILION A YEAR LOSS IN TAXS EARNED FROM BOATERS GOING FROM PORT TO PORT STOPPING TO SHOP GO TO PUB AND RESTURANTS AND PAY VAT ON GOODS BOUGHT BY RAISING THE TAX US SEA BOATERS WOULD NOT VENTURE AS FAR OR SPEND SO THE SELF DECLARATION IS A WAY ROUND THE PROBLEM FOR US BE GRATEFUL FOR IT THAT WE EVEN GOT IT AND DONT ABUSE IT! BY THE WAY ITS 60/PROP 40 HEATING AND GEN WHY SHOULD I PAY TAXES ON FUEL I BURN 12MILES OF THE ENGLISH COAST IN NO TAX LAND I DONT THINK ITS FAIR WAITING FOR THE BIG RED DIESEL TANKER TO PUT DOWN ANCHOR 12M OFFSHORE CARL PS IT CAN BE CHEAPER NOW TO PUT WHITE IN TANK AND CLAIM VAT BACK

[Big Steve]

I don't know why he bothered waiting. Assuming the Land Rover is road legal it is an offence to run it on red diesel even OFF the road so he could have just dipped the tank where it stood.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

 

They probably have no right of access onto private land.

[furnessvale]

They probably have no right of access onto private land.

 

You underestimate customs and excise. They make police powers look like pussycats. Section 7 of the same link refers.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[David Schweizer]

I don't know why he bothered waiting. Assuming the Land Rover is road legal it is an offence to run it on red diesel even OFF the road so he could have just dipped the tank where it stood.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

 

They probably have no right of access onto private land.

It all happened about 16 years ago, before the current regulations, and all I know is that the Inspector marched into the yard and tried to dip that tank without even speaking to anyone, let alone asking. My friend told him to ask nicely or clear off. The inspector apparently got very high handed, and my friend ordered him off his land, it is amazing how persuasive several dozen one year old steers can be!

[Nickhlx]

Being retired, I haven't studied the fine details of the new system but, whilst you are not "fiddling", you seem to be short circuiting the system. The RDCO is meant to submit the duty, not you. You will cause apoplexy in HMRC:-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

As I see it, I am just buying from a different ( and cheaper) supplier and still handing over the duty that is due - it's just that the supplier is asking less for the diesel... HMC and E are getting their duty, the only difference is a different shopkeeper is selling it to me

 

Nick

[dor]

It all happened about 16 years ago, before the current regulations, and all I know is that the Inspector marched into the yard and tried to dip that tank without even speaking to anyone, let alone asking. My friend told him to ask nicely or clear off. The inspector apparently got very high handed, and my friend ordered him off his land, it is amazing how persuasive several dozen one year old steers can be!

 

I think the point is, if you have a LR which never goes on the road then you can run it on red diesel, just as you could any other agricultural vehicle. However, what you can't do is run it on red on the farm, then go on the road and run it on white, then switch back etc. Mainly because you wouldn't be able to get rid of the trace of red whilst on the road.

[furnessvale]

I think the point is, if you have a LR which never goes on the road then you can run it on red diesel, just as you could any other agricultural vehicle. However, what you can't do is run it on red on the farm, then go on the road and run it on white, then switch back etc. Mainly because you wouldn't be able to get rid of the trace of red whilst on the road.

 

True, which is why I said "road legal" in my original posting. Incidentally, it doesn't have to be an agricultural vehicle, section 8.1 covers it.

 

One of the reasons I am so annoyed at boaters having to use white (or pay the duty) is the discriminatory use of this tax. Anyone else can use red diesel off road for pleasure puposes without problems. If you fancy blasting round in an old army tank at 2 gallons to the mile belching out black smoke, feel free:-(

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[carlt]

One of the reasons I am so annoyed at boaters having to use white (or pay the duty) is the discriminatory use of this tax. Anyone else can use red diesel off road for pleasure puposes without problems. If you fancy blasting round in an old army tank at 2 gallons to the mile belching out black smoke, feel free:-(

The difference is you are using your boat on a publicly owned and maintained transport network.