ANOTHER new marina

[Tiny]

Looking at the Crewe Chronicle the Wrenbury locals are not happy about the new marina. If its where we think it is it's a mile from Wrenbury but is above Baddiley locks so boats have a good few miles without locks to weekend in. Small problem - just one Winding hole in the lock-free bit about half way along then it's through 10 mlocks including the chaos that can be at Grindley Brook and turn above.

[magpie patrick]

Is WJM advocating removal of ALL on-lime moorings? I would agree with WJM over their effect except I would say AN EXCESS of on-line moorings inconveniences others.

 

While some advocate three miles a day, or perhaps a bit more, the mainstay of the system, the bit that keeps it open (other than walkers, anglers etc) are those who have limited time to cruise. To have a system that won't die, we need routes that are reasonably avaialble in a short break, a week and a fortnight, and routes that have capacity to carry a largeish number of boats. If the four counties ring, for example, takes a fortnight because half of it has to be done at 1mph, the it loses it's market appeal, holiday hire bookings go down, some boat owners sell up because they can't get enough out of their boat. Also, the capacity of the system is reduced, at 3mph then 3 miles of boat (and spaces between boat) can pass, at 1mph, only 1 mile of boats can pass in an hour. This creates problems when canals get very busy.

 

Similarly with locks: there are people who insist that they can take all the time in the world: but if 100 boats are to get through a lock in a ten hour period, you've each only got six minutes...

[RLWP]

Is WJM advocating removal of ALL on-lime moorings? I would agree with WJM over their effect except I would say AN EXCESS of on-line moorings inconveniences others.

 

I agree. It's playing merry-hell with my anodes

 

Richard

 

Coat please...

[alan_fincher]

No, some marinas have more facilities, some do not.

 

It is open to debate whether a facility is a facility at all if you aren't interested in using it.

 

Marinas also LACK some facilities that on-line moorings have;

• Wide quayside
  
• Reduced neighbour noise
  
• Ability to have a small shore-side garden
  
• Ability to have a decent sized barbie
  

Agreed,

 

And considering the pricing, I consider our marina scant on some facilities compared to the newer built ones.

 

However it does manage large grassed areas, picnic tables and brick built barbecues right by the boats, (but a safe fire distance apart, before anybody picks up on that!).

 

Unlike many you can also bring your car to within a couple of feet of the boat - a massive advantage when transporting large items, or everything to go cruising for a couple of weeks.

 

There are some I'd not touch with a bargepole because of location, such as Whilton sandwiched between the Euston West Coast Main Line and the M1. If I end up on that couple of miles South of Whilton, drowned out by the motorway, I open the throttle and can't get off it fast enough!

[Liam]

The only boats which pass me at 1mph are the ones who have just set off from behind me or are about to moor up in front of me. Boats which are passing rarely go as slow as 3mph so it really can't have that much of an effect on cruising times for these people?

 

I must admit I do slow down more than I think I need to but then again slowing down for a load of boats only puts another 30 mins or so extra cruising time during the day and I am never in that much of a rush.

[Dominic M]

I don't understand. Moorings are generally as rare as rocking horse poo.

Not here in the Midlands they aren't. You can take your pick from almost every marina in the area. Just look at the ads in the mags. Do you really think those marinas would spend £350 - £800 per issue if they were full? I don't think so.

 

I don't know about the Llangollen, but if Swanley Bridge isn't full then why will a new one just up the cut be? Ditto Cosgrove - I don't believe the modest 80 moorings at the new Blisworth have filled up - and that's with the New Boat Co having moved there and utilising a good number of them. I think many of these planning applications if and once given consent may just be put on hold. Given that the construction costs are going to be £1 million plus (and a large plus in many cases) borrowing that sort of wonga is not so easy any more.

[magpie patrick]

The only boats which pass me at 1mph are the ones who have just set off from behind me or are about to moor up in front of me. Boats which are passing rarely go as slow as 3mph so it really can't have that much of an effect on cruising times for these people?

 

I must admit I do slow down more than I think I need to but then again slowing down for a load of boats only puts another 30 mins or so extra cruising time during the day and I am never in that much of a rush.

 

Liam, you are on the Bridgwater Canal: that is so deep and wide Ripple overheated before she could make a breaking wash! Thus boats don't need to slow down as much as they do on the Shroppie or the Macc

 

30 minutes added to a day (depends how long your day is in the first place) is not unreasonable, but I do find on the shroppie it's quite a lot more than that!

[T.A]

The only boats which pass me at 1mph are the ones who have just set off from behind me or are about to moor up in front of me. Boats which are passing rarely go as slow as 3mph so it really can't have that much of an effect on cruising times for these people?

 

I must admit I do slow down more than I think I need to but then again slowing down for a load of boats only puts another 30 mins or so extra cruising time during the day and I am never in that much of a rush.

So whats the solution to those that find themselves on a schedule like hire boaters when say for instance due to no fault of theirs a stoppage interfers with their plan, they should observe the 1 mph advice be late back to hire company delay the next hirer, pay the penalty, lose the time from work because they are not allowed do the speed limit let alone exceed it! Or should they be not allowed on the canals because they are an inconvience to online moorers?

[koukouvagia]

Does anyone know the true figures for berth occupation at these new marinas?

I live quite close to the one at Saul, and whenever I pass by and look, it seems as though it's a lot emptier than it should be for this time of year. I realise a certain number of boats will be out, on dock etc; but even so, there seem far fewer than the figure of something approaching 300, which was what was quoted initially.

Is this all a con by Waterways to get outside investors to put money in? Do these developers carry out any proper market research beforehand, or is it all done on the back of a fag packet, with the aid of Waterways "projected figures", aka lies?

 

Lets assume that there will be another 250 berths in all these new marinas on the Southern GU. This means that BW will purge online moorings of 25 boats. At a stroke BW will be able to increase their revenue with these berths which will command marina, as opposed to online prices, with little or no effort on their part. It’s just another way of screwing more money out of boaters.

[carlt]

Or should they be not allowed on the canals because they are an inconvience to online moorers?

That seems to be the attitude towards online moorers.

[Hobbler]

It only inconveniences those who find it inconvenient.

 

I travelled the system, for many years, and it has never inconvenienced me.

 

I agree !

 

Having started my cruising of the system at a time when it was a major event to meet another boat on the move and rare to see much more than a couple of boats moored up - the development of linear moorings has never bothered me . In fact if they wernt there I would miss them - I like cruising past slowly and seeing what other boaters have done (or not done ) to their craft and thats something you cannot do in a marina without getting the feeling you are invading their space.

[denboy]

"You clearly said that you believed marinas offered a higher standard of living, yet fail to identify a single example, in support."

 

 

Just speaking from my own experience (there may be others I have not yet enjoyed) some marina specific facilities not usually available on the towpath; Mains electricity, direct water supply, toilets, showers, laundry, wireless internet, phone/fax lines, pontoons that compensate for level changes, excellent physical security.

 

You are entirely valid in saying they are not important to you, and nobody ever suggested otherwise. It was suggested however that they are important to the younger generation.

my online mooring must be a marina then as i have all the above

[Liam]

Liam, you are on the Bridgwater Canal: that is so deep and wide Ripple overheated before she could make a breaking wash! Thus boats don't need to slow down as much as they do on the Shroppie or the Macc

 

30 minutes added to a day (depends how long your day is in the first place) is not unreasonable, but I do find on the shroppie it's quite a lot more than that!

 

Hi MP,

 

Yes as you know I am on the Bridgewater, with an offside linear mooring. The Bridgewater was built to some pretty good dimensions but the lack of dredging in this particular area (that I know of, it's probably the whole length of the canal) now means that its a lot shallower than people realise, especially at the sides.

 

Although there was a coal wharf further up from my moorings, my section, although it has coping stones, is just a wash wall - it was never meant for boats to be tied up here, and because of this the bottom is too near the top. We have the occasional problem with the rowers shifting too much water and the odd boat pushing too much water once in a blue moon but when this does happen, no matter how much you have used springs etc to tie your boat up it's always going to move a bit.

[smileypete]

Well if it reduces the number of linear moorings then Hooray!

 

And as for causing congestion - three quarters of all narrowboats (linear included) never go anywhere!

I would like to moor anywhere to avoid people like this:

 

And just to keep the feeding frenzy going, I regularly untie empty boats and close up 20' gaps, securely retying them, in order to make room. If the owners are on board I offer to help them move, after I smack the end of their boat with mine and leave it overlapped across them.

...so please tell where you are, so I can avoid you!!!

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Lady Muck]

Congestion - I would guess that most new boats are built for housing not boating. I would bet the total number of boating boats is close to static.

 

 

 

 

"But these moorings don't want liveaboards, they want people with nice shiny boats"

 

Nonsense, I am aware of a very nice BW owned and managed marina which has a tiny number of official residential spaces, yet is almost entirely populated with liveaboards. This official blind-eye is really only in response to planning regulations. The marina is lovely and works very well for all involved. And a commercial operation will go where the business is, most of it being in livaboard moorings.

 

But Bw marinas and private marinas are two different things. - I reckon (in the South East at least) if BW evicted all liveaboards from leisure moorings they would struggle to fill the spaces and land themselves with an even worse continuous moorers problem, plus a huge drop in revenue. Some of their leisure moorings are so expensive now, they are simply unaffordable for genuine leisure boaters. I don't think there are enough leisure boaters around (at the moment) for the amount of leisure moorings that are available.

[smokeyfruitbat]

i travel the system nearly all year round, i dont find linear mooring an inconvenience. seems some people have a real problem slowing down

[Jason Wilson and Family]

So whats the solution to those that find themselves on a schedule like hire boaters when say for instance due to no fault of theirs a stoppage interfers with their plan, they should observe the 1 mph advice be late back to hire company delay the next hirer, pay the penalty, lose the time from work because they are not allowed do the speed limit let alone exceed it! Or should they be not allowed on the canals because they are an inconvience to online moorers?

 

Plan better?

 

Just to add my 2p. I'm 24, if that's not the 'younger generation', I don't know what is. I'm sure 'progress' is great for some but I'd question what progress is. Is progress really having my electric company hike prices because of 'high fuel costs' but continuing to gouge me ate energy prices die down? Is progress my constantly inflating mortgage on my house?

 

I'd give anything for the privilege of living on a canal or riverbank with a good fire in the stove and nature out the windows. It'd be a horrible shame if the canals progressed to what we have here, marina after marina filled with empty, static boats, marinas that charge you your first-born to tie up and fore-bid live-aboard boaters.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Jason Wilson and Family

[cotswoldsman]

Liam, you are on the Bridgwater Canal: that is so deep and wide Ripple overheated before she could make a breaking wash! Thus boats don't need to slow down as much as they do on the Shroppie or the Macc

 

30 minutes added to a day (depends how long your day is in the first place) is not unreasonable, but I do find on the shroppie it's quite a lot more than that!

 

Having spent time on the Bridgwater over the last 2 years I have to say I completly dissagree with you I am amazed at the speed boats go down the Bridgwater rocking the boats as they go it is the only place where I have had things fall off the shelves caused by passing boats.

[dor]

If the four counties ring, for example, takes a fortnight because half of it has to be done at 1mph, the it loses it's market appeal, holiday hire bookings go down, some boat owners sell up because they can't get enough out of their boat.

 

I really would like to know where these boaters are that slow down to 1 mph; they certainly are not hire boaters!

 

My experience is that most boaters make a token gesture of touching the throttle enough to make a noticable change to the engine note. So they slow down from 3.5 mph to 2.5 mph - you have to pass an awful lot of boats to make any significant difference to the distance you travel in a day.

 

Whilst many will say they slow right down when passing boats, I think very few actually have the faintest idea of what speed they are doing. Give them a decent gps and I suspect many boaters will find they are doing 2.5 mph at tickover. It's like walking - people think walking pace is 4 mph. It is not - most people walk at about 3 mph -4 is a brisk walk.

[cotswoldsman]

-4 is a brisk walk.

 

Sounds like a sprint to me!!!

[sociable_hermit]

Yeah, there are quite a few Marinas that won't offer 'residential' berths but will offer 'permanent' berths with daily access. This can create problems regarding mail, council tax, voting rights etc., or alternatively it can take problems away, depending on how you look at it.

 

The funniest thing I've heard of recently is a chap with a genuine residential mooring and a house. By declaring himself a liveaboard boater he had to pay c.£600 council tax for the boat, but the bill for his house was reduced by 50%, saving c.£1.2k.

 

Makes me laugh

[AlanH]

Plan better?

 

Just to add my 2p. I'm 24, if that's not the 'younger generation', I don't know what is. I'm sure 'progress' is great for some but I'd question what progress is. Is progress really having my electric company hike prices because of 'high fuel costs' but continuing to gouge me ate energy prices die down? Is progress my constantly inflating mortgage on my house?

 

I'd give anything for the privilege of living on a canal or riverbank with a good fire in the stove and nature out the windows. It'd be a horrible shame if the canals progressed to what we have here, marina after marina filled with empty, static boats, marinas that charge you your first-born to tie up and fore-bid live-aboard boaters.

It would also be horrible if the canals were continuously lined with the same unoccupied boats. We need marinas. If we didn't have them then the system would become unnavigable. Take the UPF for example.:

 

Some eight miles of very narrow canal. Two marinas holding some 150 boats. If those boats were all moored online then the cut would be virtually impassable. As it is the final half mile to Whaley bridge is narrow with all the online moorers making it worse. I've lost count of the number of times I've run aground on this bit when trying to avoid boats coming the other way.

[magpie patrick]

I really would like to know where these boaters are that slow down to 1 mph; they certainly are not hire boaters!

Well me for a start: I'm no longer a hire boater but I was until three years ago.

 

How do I know? Mileposts (or is someone going to tell me they are inaccurate?) On open narrow canal I reckon to pass one every 20-22 minutes. Where there are moorings this increases considerably, adding around fifteen minutes if half the length is full of moored boats. I must admit that on Ripple tickover is so slow I sometime have to add a little just to maintain steerage.

 

My experience is that most boaters make a token gesture of touching the throttle enough to make a noticable change to the engine note. So they slow down from 3.5 mph to 2.5 mph - you have to pass an awful lot of boats to make any significant difference to the distance you travel in a day.

 

You can see from the above that I'm not doing much more than 2.5mph when NOT passing moored boats: yes I'm slower than most, but only occassionaly do boats actually catch me up.

 

Whilst many will say they slow right down when passing boats, I think very few actually have the faintest idea of what speed they are doing. Give them a decent gps and I suspect many boaters will find they are doing 2.5 mph at tickover. It's like walking - people think walking pace is 4 mph. It is not - most people walk at about 3 mph -4 is a brisk walk.

 

Given what I've said above, not many are doing 3.5 mph, otherwise I'd have a tail fairly quickly.

 

Some comments I've made seem to be pissing people off: particularly some people I like here and would probably like if I met them (Liam, for example). So I'll expand a bit. I have no problem with on-line moorings per se, but there is a limit.It's a bit like road congestion and inflation: it's not the individual action but the collective effect that creates a problem

 

Alan H has referred to the Upper Peak Forest where the number of boats is becoming an issue: the capacity of this canal is lower to start off with because the it's shallow, narrow and twisty. However the issue is the same elsewhere, just with a higher threshold.

 

Val and I enjoy seeing boats as we pass but also enjoy the open stretches where there are no moored boats, or only the odd one who has stopped for a few hours/overnight

 

Liam: my point was that the speed at which passing boats are a nuisance on the Bridgwater is higher than, say, on the Macc. From your observation it looks like people just go past even faster.

 

Dave Mayall and others: if there were on-line moorings round like yours round here, I'd consider them and probably make a decision on price. I don't want to be in a marina because it's off-line: I want security, supervision and car parking. I got that at an EOG mooring and now at a marina.

 

Going back to the original point about too many marinas, it does seem unwise to load the Llangollen even more. I thought the point of developments like Saul (where we are) was to encourage boats onto the less popular waterways, thus market pricing can encourage a spread with Marinas in Braunston and Cheshire offering a wide range of crusing routes at a price, and Marina's such as Saul offering less for less. The basic tenet of any traffic planning (roads, rail, water) is that a new development will have a pro-rata effect. So if 700 berths means 70 boats out on the busiest day the 1000 will mean 100 (these are examples, I don't think that anything like 10% go out at once). Given the congestion already occuring at Hurleston and Grindley Brook adding more moorings here seems unwise.

 

How many boats in a year? Well a few weeks ago we calculated that the Somerset Coal Canal saw between 36,000 and 48,000 boat movements a year through Combe Hay locks at its busiest, but of course this was evenly spead over 300 days (the canal was closed on Sundays). this equates to between 120 and 160 boat movements each day every day. the trouble is, they were probably a lot faster through each lock than modern leasiuer boaters

 

As an aside, I met the guy who was managing the finances for Saul, he worked for Knight Frank, and was representing HSBC who had loaned capital. Saul cost £8000 a berth to develop, and fees are of the order of £2000 per berth, so if full, the return on capital would be 25% per annum. This was so far into the comfort zone he wasn't worried. "5% would do..."

Edited November 12, 2008 by magpie patrick

[Hobbler]

Having spent time on the Bridgwater over the last 2 years I have to say I completly dissagree with you I am amazed at the speed boats go down the Bridgwater rocking the boats as they go it is the only place where I have had things fall off the shelves caused by passing boats.

 

 

If you want to see what speed on a canal is all about you need to be on the Gloucester & Sharpness when some of the sea going lot are trying to catch the tide at Sharpness . There are not many places where the wash of a passing boat will clean the side windows of a narrowboat !!!

[Jason Wilson and Family]

It would also be horrible if the canals were continuously lined with the same unoccupied boats. We need marinas. If we didn't have them then the system would become unnavigable. Take the UPF for example.:

 

Some eight miles of very narrow canal. Two marinas holding some 150 boats. If those boats were all moored online then the cut would be virtually impassable. As it is the final half mile to Whaley bridge is narrow with all the online moorers making it worse. I've lost count of the number of times I've run aground on this bit when trying to avoid boats coming the other way.

The problem is, as marinas open BW remove on-line moorings. Yes miles of boats end to end that never move is something to shuffle into marinas but genuine boaters should not be forced in there with them.