buying deisel

[ditchcrawler]

why not have 2 seperate tanks, one for heating, one for the engine? pull up at the marina and say 'i only need to fill the heating tank' ? then just transfer it to the engine tank (thats already linked up)

Or just add a lable to the main tank saying "Heating Oil" and tell the yard the engine tank is on the other side and you don't need any as you only do about 10 miles a month,

Mind you, at the end of the day its not up to the boat yard how much you use where, its up to you, so just tell him to fill it up and sign the sheet as 100% heating.

[mickspangle]

thinking about it, there are a few spots where garages are canalside...the one south of Berkhamsted next to the pub (is the old mill?) springs to mind. Maybe they could do worse than invest in a pump with a really long hose... (lightbulb over head smiley)

 

getting back to my experience though, when I went to fill up I could have told him I was drinking it for all the difference it would make to the price.

 

FWIW I live aboard with diesel heating and no shore power and have been keeping records for the last year. I know my split between engine and kabola is 20/80. that doesn't even take into account the work the engine does in charging batteries or heating water via the calorifier. I'm not trying to fiddle it...I just want to declare and pay honestly!

[cotswoldsman]

thinking about it, there are a few spots where garages are canalside...the one south of Berkhamsted next to the pub (is the old mill?) springs to mind. Maybe they could do worse than invest in a pump with a really long hose... (lightbulb over head smiley)

 

getting back to my experience though, when I went to fill up I could have told him I was drinking it for all the difference it would make to the price.

 

FWIW I live aboard with diesel heating and no shore power and have been keeping records for the last year. I know my split between engine and kabola is 20/80. that doesn't even take into account the work the engine does in charging batteries or heating water via the calorifier. I'm not trying to fiddle it...I just want to declare and pay honestly!

 

As I think you will find most boaters do.

I just can't believe that there are marinas that do not realise that by forcing boaters to sign a pre decided split all they are doing in the long run is loosing business. I just hope that when they do see sence boaters will refuse to fill up at these marinas.

[tinca steve]

Went to check out a boat at Devizes Marina and when I asked them about the split they replied with "We are not selling it any more"

[bargeeboy]

As I think you will find most boaters do.

I just can't believe that there are marinas that do not realise that by forcing boaters to sign a pre decided split all they are doing in the long run is loosing business. I just hope that when they do see sence boaters will refuse to fill up at these marinas.

 

 

So whose going to do the paperwork that is involved !

 

My staff have better things to do like repair boats at £35 and hour. So stop work, go to the pump, fill up, do the paperwork. half an hour. I think I will look at this.

 

Oh and nobody has mentioned that the duty free element only applies if you have diesel heating.

 

 

So if you do not have diesel heating we will charge the full rate.

[NB Alnwick]

Oh and nobody has mentioned that the duty free element only applies if you have diesel heating.

 

 

So if you do not have diesel heating we will charge the full rate.

 

Where has this come from? As far as I can see there is no such restriction in the guidelines issued by HM Revenue & Customs. The clear inference is that 'domestic use' includes the generation of electricity.

[bottle]

I think someone needs to go back and read the paperwork from HMRC.

 

Those that sell 'red' diesel do not have any responsibility whatsoever in how the declaration is made, all they have to do is fill in the paperwork.

 

The whole onus is on the buyer.

[David Schweizer]

As I think you will find most boaters do.

I just can't believe that there are marinas that do not realise that by forcing boaters to sign a pre decided split all they are doing in the long run is loosing business. I just hope that when they do see sence boaters will refuse to fill up at these marinas.

Judging by the difficulty in gaining access to the fuel pump in some Marinas, coupled with the unreasonably high cost when you get there,I believe that some Marinas would quite happily give up selling diesel.

[furnessvale]

I think someone needs to go back and read the paperwork from HMRC.

 

Those that sell 'red' diesel do not have any responsibility whatsoever in how the declaration is made, all they have to do is fill in the paperwork.

 

The whole onus is on the buyer.

 

Not quite true. A RDCO still has a "general duty of care" in relation to the final use of any rebated fuel he sells. Nothing in the new regulations or advice notes absolves this. Having said that, I agree that there is nothing in the new advice stipulating that diesel heating must be present on the vessel.

 

George (ex nb Alton retired)

[alan_fincher]

So whose going to do the paperwork that is involved !

 

My staff have better things to do like repair boats at £35 and hour. So stop work, go to the pump, fill up, do the paperwork. half an hour. I think I will look at this.

 

Oh and nobody has mentioned that the duty free element only applies if you have diesel heating.

 

So if you do not have diesel heating we will charge the full rate.

I find your line on this disappointing, I must admit.

 

You could do well to read the Revenue brief again, as it doesn't actually make mention of whether a boat has diesel heating or not.

 

There is no ambiguity whatsoever that 'red' bought to generate electricity, or heat water via the engine does qualify for the rebated rate. So to take the line of "we will not sell you any at the rebated rate if you don't have diesel heating" is just plain wrong, in my view.

 

Somebody has demonstrated that the maths involved to allow any split the boater declares shouldn't take much over a minute, so if it was viable for you to sell red before, I can't see why it should not continue to be.

 

Fortunately quite a few suppliers seem to be gearing up to a more enlightened approach, and I'm guessing that as people get to know who they are, they will further benefit as people choose to spend other money on items like chandlery or pump-out, whilst they are stopping there.

 

But, as others have said, you are the supplier, and as long as within the law, can probably dictate the terms on which you will, or will not do business. However, I would expect to have these made abundantly clear to me before fuel went into my tank, so I could then move on elsewhere, if I preferred.

 

Alan

[carlt]

So if you do not have diesel heating we will charge the full rate.

Will you be trusting the customer's word, on this matter, or will you be insisting on a thorough search of every boat?

[bottle]

Not quite true. A RDCO still has a "general duty of care" in relation to the final use of any rebated fuel he sells. Nothing in the new regulations or advice notes absolves this. Having said that, I agree that there is nothing in the new advice stipulating that diesel heating must be present on the vessel.

 

George (ex nb Alton retired)

 

George

 

Thank you and I am not disagreeing but surely the seller has to believe what he is told, as he will not have any evidence that the 'red' is being will be misused.

 

Therefore he has taken "general duty of care" by asking for the declaration.

 

The process of buying 'red' is not exact as the buyer has to declare his expected use.

 

For example: declare 60% for propulsion but the cut freezes for a number of days/weeks, so the boater does not move is he going to sit there freezing because he 'declared' only 40% of the fuel was for heating/generation.

 

(For the pedants, I know we have to declare the propulsion percentage but by doing so we do imply the the percentage for heating/generation)

 

We the boaters have to declare to the best of our knowledge our expected usage, now if we were scrupulously law abiding there is a chance to adjust our next declaration.

 

We have also to be aware that HMRC may ask for proof of our buying and usage.

[cotswoldsman]

So whose going to do the paperwork that is involved !

 

My staff have better things to do like repair boats at £35 and hour. So stop work, go to the pump, fill up, do the paperwork. half an hour. I think I will look at this.

 

Oh and nobody has mentioned that the duty free element only applies if you have diesel heating.

 

 

So if you do not have diesel heating we will charge the full rate.

 

Once again a retailer who does not understand the HMRC rules on selling red diesel. Still another one to avoid hope you are better at repairing boats than you are at understanding guidlines, hope you never have to do a repair on a boat that involves having to read instructions.

[chris w]

Well with that attitude, we know which business to avoid. Bargeeboy's web address: here

[frangar]

Well with that attitude, we know which business to avoid. Bargeeboy's web address: here

 

 

Steady...this could be the second time me and chris w have agreed.........!!

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[jimandju]

Has your usual outlet stopped selling deisel? Have they made their own rules? I know some outlets have yet to receive information on how to implement the split.

Sue

Bridge House Marina on the Lancaster has stopped selling diesel.

[furnessvale]

George

 

Thank you and I am not disagreeing but surely the seller has to believe what he is told, as he will not have any evidence that the 'red' is being will be misused.

 

Therefore he has taken "general duty of care" by asking for the declaration.

 

The process of buying 'red' is not exact as the buyer has to declare his expected use.

 

For example: declare 60% for propulsion but the cut freezes for a number of days/weeks, so the boater does not move is he going to sit there freezing because he 'declared' only 40% of the fuel was for heating/generation.

 

(For the pedants, I know we have to declare the propulsion percentage but by doing so we do imply the the percentage for heating/generation)

 

We the boaters have to declare to the best of our knowledge our expected usage, now if we were scrupulously law abiding there is a chance to adjust our next declaration.

 

We have also to be aware that HMRC may ask for proof of our buying and usage.

 

I do not know of any test cases over the "general duty of care" as it applies to the sale of rebated fuel in general, and of course no such case could yet have arisen with regard to boat sales. I would assume the "reasonable man" test would apply, i.e. to blindly accept a declaration when any reasonable man should have known that the declaration was not practicable would not be a defence in law.

 

I think that if we all act sensibly, HMRC will go away and let us get on with it, BUT I can guarantee that some will be wanting 0/100 declarations without providing any proof to the seller that this is a realistic split.

 

George (ex nb Alton retired)

[bottle]

If someone wishes to declare 0% in certain circumstances they can, but it is only necessary to provide proof if HMRC come calling

 

I cannot find anywhere that says the buyer must provide proof of his expected usage to the supplier..

 

For reference here is the guideline issued by HMRC.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4908.htm

 

From that document:

 

 

RDCOs' responsibilities

If you supply red diesel to private pleasure craft, you will be required to charge the purchaser the full rate of duty on fuel used for propulsion and pay the duty to us. This is a new requirement for fuel suppliers.

 

You are not responsible for ascertaining whether the fuel you sell to an individual is for propulsion of a private pleasure craft, although, if you suspect that is the case, you should remind the purchaser of their legal obligation to make a declaration and pay the full rate of duty. You are not responsible if the user fails to make a declaration or makes a false declaration.

 

Note: The colour is my addition

[Dutch]

Well with that attitude, we know which business to avoid. Bargeeboy's web address: here

 

We were intending to pull in there next week for diesel.Needless to say we will not be ever again with his attitude

[cotswoldsman]

We were intending to pull in there next week for diesel.Needless to say we will not be ever again with his attitude

 

 

Good. Boaters should only support marinas that in turn support boaters.

[Dave45]

Hi

Following this topic with interest.

I go to my local country garage with 4 jerry cans and fill 3 up with red diesel and 1 with white.

The red diesel is 75p and the white is £1.05 The guy that runs garage knows i have a narrowboat and i tell him the white is for propulsion and the red is for living, he shrugs and says ive heard nothin so i could have had it all red, i say oh i want to keep things legal so give me a receipt for both.

 

 

Dave

Edited November 10, 2008 by Dave45

[denboy]

Hi

Following this topic with interest.

I go to my local country garage with 4 jerry cans and fill 3 up with red diesel and 1 with white.

The red diesel is 75p and the white is £1.05The uy that runs garage knows i have a narrowboat and i tell him thewhite is for propulsion and the red is for living,he shrugs nand says ive heard nothin so could have had it all red ,i say o i want to keep things leal so give me a receipt for both.

sensible man

[alan_fincher]

Hi

Following this topic with interest.

I go to my local country garage with 4 jerry cans and fill 3 up with red diesel and 1 with white.

The red diesel is 75p and the white is £1.05The uy that runs garage knows i have a narrowboat and i tell him thewhite is for propulsion and the red is for living,he shrugs nand says ive heard nothin so could have had it all red ,i say o i want to keep things leal so give me a receipt for both.

And of course, as already pointed out, if you then put 3 cans of 'red' into your boat tank, but one of 'white' into your diesel car, you still have paperwork that proves you paid higher duty on 25% of your purchase, which you could claim all went into your boat.....

 

This thing relies in no small amount on trust, because what we have ended up with will always be open to abuse, if someone wants to avoid paying the full duty on propulsion diesel.

[carlt]

I think, to be fair to Bargeeboy, though it will hit the boater, to some degree, in the pocket, if it is going to cost the boatyard more to manage the change, than the meagre profits got from fuel sales, why should he be any less grumpy about the situation.

 

You may find a lot of suppliers pull out of fuel sales, because it's not worth the hassle.

[Dave45]

sensible man

as if lol