How does an historic Boat fail to be restored.

[carlt]

Feel a bit powerless here Carl, as we all do: variuos thoughts had gone through my mind for a futire for these (and possibly other) boats but it sounds like in a few days they may have no future.

 

First thing: despite reading repeated posts I don't actually know where these boats are. Without that knowledge I can't protest to anyone who might listen that BW are wrecking the heritage of the canals with this attitude (I am actually raising the issue of treating historic boats in the same manner as kanckered unlicensed springers or whatever). Neither can others. I know you don't like the limelight but a few more details may make it possible to make a cause celebre out of Usk and Lucy, so they're either saved or at worst BW get so browbeaten they take more care in future.

 

Second: is there any way to appeal above said officers head for a stay of execution while the prospective buyer gets their act together

 

Third: point taken about people who are paid to give the right answer but anyone with a conscience (or at least me in my line of consultancy) should have the balls to say to the client "you are asking the wrong question". Trevor Whitling surveyed Ripple for me and did exactly that, and then gave me the answers I needed, but then it's a steel narrow boat only seven years old.

 

Fourth, are BW really allowed to remove your boats without due process including appeal?

The boats are in Wolfhampcote, about a mile outside Braunston.

 

I have emailed Robin Evans and asked him for time to remove the boats myself. I'm awaiting a response.

 

I believe Trevor Whitling gave the client the answers they needed, in this case, also.

 

Advice I've received suggests that Section 8 gives BW the right to remove the boats from waters managed by them.

It doesn't, however give them the right to destroy private property.

 

They disagree with this opinion and the only way to see who's right is to test it in court...after the destruction of the boats. Something I'd rather avoid but certainly action I will take, if they do destroy the boats.

 

edited for an unforgivable "i before e" error.

Edited June 11, 2008 by carlt

[magpie patrick]

I think he gave them the answer they wanted, which was "these boats are beyond (economic) repair and ipso facto won't be repaired and you can destory them"

 

The answer they needed was "given attention from an enthusiats who can devote the time and energy these boats are relatively easily salveagable, their removal at this stage is not justified and should wait until either all avenues are exhausted or the boats becomes totally beyond repair"

[sueb]

How can BW take licenced boats from a private mooring and destroy them?

Sue

[Liam]

How can BW take licenced boats from a private mooring and destroy them?

Sue

 

Apologies if I am incorrect on this but I am sure Carl said that the licenses have now lapsed.

[carlt]

How can BW take licenced boats from a private mooring and destroy them?

Sue

Shouldn't the question be "How can BW take historic boats and destroy them?" or "How can they destroy private property?" My legal advice is that they can't.

 

Section 8 of the Act allows them to remove unauthorised, sunken or abandoned boats from BW managed waters but it doesn't allow them to destroy boats.

 

Both boats are perfectly capable of being refloated and removed intact, BW just don't feel inclined to cooperate.

 

I have left the boats in the water for as long as I can in the hope that someone else would come along and take them over. This may have happened for Lucy but, again, BW don't want to cooperate.

 

So the last hope for these boats to survive is for them to be removed from the water, by me, dismantled and stored. BW don't want to cooperate.

 

Lucy's licence lapsed a year ago and Usks will lapse next month. You can't license an uninsurable boat.

[magnetman]

You can get 3rd party insurance on any boat you own without any details about the boat being asked except that it is under 75ft under 17 knots and used on inland waterways. Basic Boat Liability Co.

[carlt]

So you're suggesting that I fraudulently gain insurance for sunken boats? Any more bright ideas?

[dove]

So you're suggesting that I fraudulently gain insurance for sunken boats? Any more bright ideas?

 

Basic Boat insure you, not the boat. just licenced our boats this way, £64

 

Andrew

[NB Alnwick]

So you're suggesting that I fraudulently gain insurance for sunken boats? Any more bright ideas?

 

Carl, I think you have judged Andrew rather harshly. What he said is that you can get third party insurance which will provide the cover necessary to obtain a licence or re-licence. Third party only provides you with cover against anyone who makes a claim against you which in this instance is extremely unlikely.

 

Even though your boats are sitting on the bottom and are filled with water it may still be possible to float them and if so there is a chance of their survival.

 

By the way, since the water level dropped yesterday, our boat is sitting on the bottom at Cropredy and is stuck fast but it is fully insured and I wouldn't describe it as sunk! I don't mind for the time being but BW had better raise the water level before I go cruising!

[magnetman]

Whats 'fraudulent' about my suggestion? It is just possible that if the boat(s) could be licensed then BW would be unable to destroy them. As Dove said, 3rd party insurance is about the owner causing an accident while using a boat. This wouldn't happen with unused boats but BW do need a policy number on their application form. Bsc can be bypassed with an exemption.

[Liam]

Well to be honest I initially thought "nah, would never work" but now, once it's been explained it makes sense if it secures both boats from BW.

[carlt]

Basic Boat insure you, not the boat. just licenced our boats this way, £64

 

Andrew

I still have my Basic Boat policy, but thank you for the info. Under their terms and conditions (have you read them) they have a non-disclosure clause. If I didn't inform them about the boats' condition, the lifeboat wouldn't be insured.

 

Give them a ring and tell them you've got 2 sunken boats, can you have insurance. They'll tell you the same thing they told me.

 

I have always been honest about my boats so, apart from being unable to insure them, BW would not renew your licence, while the boat is sunk.

 

I have always offered to pay and, if BW do destroy the boats, I will have to pay their bill, about £2k per boat, I believe. Of course I could have used my wreck salvage insurance to have the boats broken up and skipped but have waited until the last possible moment, in the hope that someone will take them on.

 

I wish I hadn't bothered.

 

 

As Dove said, 3rd party insurance is about the owner causing an accident while using a boat.

And if it was just third party, this would work. The wreck salvage part of the policy would make non-disclosure, that the boats were sunk, fraudulent.

 

 

Carl, I think you have judged Andrew rather harshly.

If he'd actually read the T&C's of the Basic Boat policy, I may agree with you.

[mykaskin]

Can you not refloat them even if for a short period to get them insured, and then resink as nessesary? If you are prepered to licence them and they are on proper moorings, I don't see how BW can remove them.

 

Mike

[carlt]

Can you not refloat them even if for a short period to get them insured, and then resink as nessesary? If you are prepered to licence them and they are on proper moorings, I don't see how BW can remove them.

 

Mike

They can remove a licensed boat, under a section 8 notice, if it is sunken or abandoned. As I said, Usk's discs are not expired but they still say her removal is imminent.

 

In the good old days you could play cat and mouse, with a boat you're trying to save, by moving the sectioned boat to another region, forcing the process to restart, while you got the boat fit for inspection. This stopped when the section 8 notice was changed to national, rather than regional.

 

You could also play "musical boats", putting the at risk boat into another enthusiasts name, just before the notice expired, again gaining some time. They've knocked that ruse on the head too.

[magnetman]

Carlt, i apologise. The BBLC don't ask for boat details makes me think they don't need to know but insurance is a con anyway so i should have known they'd have aggressive smallprint.

Edited June 12, 2008 by magnetman

[carlt]

Carlt, i apologise. The BBLC don't ask for boat details makes me think they don't need to know but insurance is a con anyway so i should have known they'd have aggressive smallprint.

No need for an apology!

 

I asked them the question, when I was contemplating having Lucy removed, under the wreck salvage bit of the insurance.

 

They said that now they knew the boat was sunk they wouldn't renew my policy.

 

The whole thing has become such a mess, I wish I'd got both boats removed when they were still insured.

[Dominic M]

I've only just come across this topic, Carl, and it makes for sad reading. Gives me more of a perspective on your posts in stort_mark's topic about finding a wooden boat surveyor.

 

Have you tried ringing TW to see if he will discuss it with you verbally? I've always found him very approachable.

 

Dominic

Edited June 12, 2008 by Dominic M

[carlt]

I've only just come across this topic, Carl, and it makes for sad reading. Gives me more of a perspective on your posts in stort_mark's topic about finding a wooden boat surveyor.

 

Have you tried ringing TW to see if he will discuss it with you verbally? I've always found him very approachable.

 

Dominic

I've left messages but, as he has been retained by BW I'd guess it would be unprofessional to actually speak to me.

[bargeeboy]

I will donate you submarine space for 1 year if you can get them to my yard

[carlt]

I will donate you submarine space for 1 year if you can get them to my yard

I'll refloat them and decide whether they can make the journey. Usk should be fine but I wouldn't want Lucy's back end to fall off in a lock (watch me run from that one!) though I understand Gertrude survived that indignity.

 

Thank you for the fantastic offer, though!

[Proper Job]

I'll refloat them and decide whether they can make the journey. Usk should be fine but I wouldn't want Lucy's back end to fall off in a lock (watch me run from that one!) though I understand Gertrude survived that indignity.

 

Thank you for the fantastic offer, though!

I am more than happy to help, although I can only offer time at a weekend and enthusiasm.

 

PM me if you want a hand

[Paul H]

I will donate you submarine space for 1 year if you can get them to my yard

 

A timely and generous offer indeed. Next stop Poland!

 

And wouldn't a restored Lucy painted in Samuel Barlow colours look fantastic moored outside your pub?

 

Paul H

Edited June 13, 2008 by Paul H

[Pinkatpole]

I'll refloat them and decide whether they can make the journey. Usk should be fine but I wouldn't want Lucy's back end to fall off in a lock (watch me run from that one!) though I understand Gertrude survived that indignity.

 

Thank you for the fantastic offer, though!

 

 

Again

 

I would also be happy to help.

 

Bargeeboys offer is fantastic

[Hairy-Neil]

Count me in too.

[hughc]

If you need a tow PM me.Can tow on trade plates if necessary Regards, HughC.

Edited June 13, 2008 by hughc