How does an historic Boat fail to be restored.

[carlt]

As the "sunken boat" thread is set to descend into chaos I thought I'd tell the tale of two boats that have failed to receive the attention and restoration they deserve...Lucy and Usk...my boats.

 

I bought Lucy about 8 years ago, for £1000. When I found her she was on the embankment, at Cosford, with a hosepipe constantly siphoning water, down the bank, to keep her afloat.

 

My partner and I reduced her leaks to a trickle and set off boating around the system. We got her into a state where she could pass a safety certificate and got her licensed, for the first time in many years.

 

We happily boated round until arriving at Braunston, because Tim Coghlan was unveiling a plaque, dedicated to the Whitlocks and their boat, Lucy and we agreed to attend.

 

Tim, at this time, offered to buy Lucy from us because he wished to take her out of the water and display her in the building shed, which he wanted to rebuild.

 

We said we wouldn't sell her but we would donate her, if we,or he, could come up with another wooden boat which we would take on.

 

Various boats were considered but we finally acquired ex-willow wren butty, Taplow, at which point Tim said he didn't want Lucy, because he couldn't get planning permission to rebuild the shed.

 

We now had 2 butties so one had to go. Heart ruled head so we got Taplow legal and passed her on.

 

Our plans to rebuild Lucy took a setback when our son was born but, no problem, it just delayed matters.

 

Then, a couple of years ago, my son was diagnosed with Autism and I knew that the problems we would face, with his condition, would make our dream of rebuilding Lucy, unattainable.

 

It was at this point I joined the forum and started to publicise my need to pass Lucy on to someone who could achieve what I failed to.

 

My first post:

Hello,

My first post so be gentle with me.

At the risk of bringing this thread back to the subject of boats. What are we supposed to do with the historic boats which require a total rebuild/replication/restoration. As the owner of a T.C.O. tarboat and the last unconverted Nurser butty, I find myself with a dilemna. I am now forty and my second child is on it's way which means I will no longer have the time nor the resources to restore/...etc. two wooden boats. One of them has to go and head trumps heart so the motor stays. So I am left with a nurser butty commissioned by Sir John Knill, worked by the whitlocks on the last jamole and having virtually all its original running gear and I don't know what to do with her. I can't trust a trust, look at Raymond, a boat built by a committee! What the shroppie flyboat folk have done to saturn's pile of ironwork is admirable, but why dismantle a serviceable boat to produce a scratch-built replica when they had symbol's ironwork to play with? Saturn would have made a great 'rolling restoration' which could have done the shows publicising symbol's rebuild.

 

Looking at the museums' collections I can't see how they can maintain their boats, let alone be burdened with another.

 

So what is left is another private individual with the resources and commitment I had before I started breeding. But I then have to hope their circumstances don't change, as mine have.

 

So if anyone has any suggestions as what should be done with one of the most important boats out there then I'm all ears!

 

I have been actively searching for a home for Lucy for all this time, so the assertion that there are plenty of people out there, willing to take on a project, is, quite frankly, twaddle.

 

Since moving back into the house Lucy's solar panels, keeping her pump batteries charged, were stolen, so she sank. I cannot justify spending hundreds of pounds on new panels, when they will just be stolen again, so sunk she must remain.

 

As for Usk, well she was being cared for and materials and cash had been saved to perform her restoration (her hull was in excellent condition). Then a pair of lowlifes decided to set fire to her. She now needs as much remedial work as Lucy, so I am in no position to carry this out, either.

 

There have been various people who have expressed an interest in saving the boats but none of the proposals came to fruition.

 

I could have just used my wreck salvage insurance to clear the boats away but I want to leave them until there is no hope of someone taking them on (ie. when BW run out of patience and remove them). At which point I will have to pay the bill, as the insurance has now lapsed.

 

The next step is to clear the mooring and remove any running gear from the boats, that can be salvaged. This will remain in storage to be donated to anyone brave enough to take the boats on, until BW decide to destroy the boats. I will then be selling any artifacts to pay the bill (not leave it to the licence payer, as some people assume).

 

So, though it's nobody's business but mine, I decided to tell the recent history of two beautiful boats, and my regret at failing to do them justice.

 

Hopefully some may be less judgmental about other boats, in the same situation as mine, with different stories.

 

Somehow I doubt it, though.

[magpie patrick]

Carl, I've added a reply to this because I felt it deserved more recognition than simply being read. I have no experience of trying to maintain an historic boat and am unlikely to ever have. It is difficult enought to keep on top of what a seven year old steel narrow boat requires of me. I can recognise your position though and your post should be put on every pub wall (including the virtual pub) for all those conversations where people bemoan the loss of something precious and say that "they should do something about...": which "they" do they have in mind?

 

I delight in the sight of historic boats of all types: one of several highlights of a trip through Parbold recently was the L&L boat "Ambush" in full flight, selling gas, deisel and coal. She's steel and not a narrow boat, which to some seems to mean she is not worthy. GU Town Class (?) Alton passes my moorings and I am always pleased to see her. I was shocked recently someone commented in conversation that a much neglected Sheffield size barge was "not a heritage boat". It may well be cut up.

 

With historic boats, as with anything else historic, once it's gone it's gone. I think you are doing the right thing in keeping Usk and Lucy until there is no hope rather than breaking them up now: someone may come along with the resources to save one or both of them. The life of anything so fragile in private hands will always be tenuous: the next person may also find the effort defeats them, but at least they'll have tried.

 

I think the saddest note of all is the role low life have played in defeating you: stolen solar panels and mindless arson. To accept that the needs of your family come first is simply being responsible, to be undermined by this sort of thing is sickening. I hope you're not blaming yourself; you've done more than most of us to try and keep these boats going.

[NB Alnwick]

Hear, Hear to that!

[Liam]

Not wanting to hijack this thread, but although Ambush may look like a picture of health did you see Viktoria, Ambush's butty? It's in quite a bad way and Derick, the owner, is trying to get some sort of trust together to save the boat. It's a very long story and not one that I am going to go into on here, but Derick is in the exact same position Carl is in at the moment.

 

It's bad enough having to deal with personal problems in your family and little <insert swear words here> setting your boat on fire without people giving you snide remarks and more probably, talking about you and your situaton behind your back.

 

It's Friday, cheer up Liam!

[NB Alnwick]

The much publicised deepening worldwide financial crisis, doesn't help.

 

As fuel (especially oil), food and material prices continue to rise, it will become much more difficult for private individuals to own a restore historic boats and vehicles. Sadly, those who can afford to take on such tasks are usually too busy accumulating even more money for themselves and do not have the time.

 

Forming small preservation groups should work by combining resources and skills but, without very strong leadership, such groups often split into factions and fall out among themselves or go off at tangents (human nature) which is, so often, entirely counterproductive.

[Chris Pink]

b

Edited May 17, 2008 by Chris Pink

[hughc]

I was reluctant to comment on this thread for various reasons but here goes. We have rescued, repaired and restored more "heritage" narrow boats than many other private owners. The cost, especially for wooden boats, is horrendous and we have been able to indulge ourselves only because the sale of one boat has usually provided funds for beginning another. Over the years we have said that never again would we tackle a wooden boat but that resolution fell by the wayside when we heard that Judith Ann was in danger of being broken up; or worse still sold or donated to a museum. There is no point in a job of this description expecting a committee to take quick decisions or not want to air their own opinions at length. Someone has to be in charge and able to devote the time needed to oversee the progress. This means private ownership. We were lucky that Nick and Raven at Jem's yard were able to do the heavy. skilled work of re-planking and if you need a boatyard to do this expect to pay heavily. It would have been possible to oversee this work at Langley Mill but would have taken a great deal longer and probably in the end cost as much. With wooden boats if the job isn't progressing then the boat will deteriorate and enthusiasm will wane. I have watched with interest the progress of various groups and their restorations. In some cases the boats would have been better left sunk until some one with the expertise and more especially the money had agreed to back the work. Avon was broken up at Puttenham because no one could be found to take on the task. It isn't enough to dream of leaning on the tiller getting a buzz from all the admiring glances any one wishing to tackle a restoration has to realise the amount of hard, and often unpleasant work, required. If any group or individual is considering the restoration of a wooden narrow boat and would like to see what we are doing please mail me privately and I will be pleased to help. Regards, HughC.

[carlt]

I was reluctant to comment on this thread for various reasons but here goes. We have rescued, repaired and restored more "heritage" narrow boats than many other private owners. The cost, especially for wooden boats, is horrendous and we have been able to indulge ourselves only because the sale of one boat has usually provided funds for beginning another. Over the years we have said that never again would we tackle a wooden boat but that resolution fell by the wayside when we heard that Judith Ann was in danger of being broken up; or worse still sold or donated to a museum. There is no point in a job of this description expecting a committee to take quick decisions or not want to air their own opinions at length. Someone has to be in charge and able to devote the time needed to oversee the progress. This means private ownership. We were lucky that Nick and Raven at Jem's yard were able to do the heavy. skilled work of re-planking and if you need a boatyard to do this expect to pay heavily. It would have been possible to oversee this work at Langley Mill but would have taken a great deal longer and probably in the end cost as much. With wooden boats if the job isn't progressing then the boat will deteriorate and enthusiasm will wane. I have watched with interest the progress of various groups and their restorations. In some cases the boats would have been better left sunk until some one with the expertise and more especially the money had agreed to back the work. Avon was broken up at Puttenham because no one could be found to take on the task. It isn't enough to dream of leaning on the tiller getting a buzz from all the admiring glances any one wishing to tackle a restoration has to realise the amount of hard, and often unpleasant work, required. If any group or individual is considering the restoration of a wooden narrow boat and would like to see what we are doing please mail me privately and I will be pleased to help. Regards, HughC.

I would point out Hugh, that I've served my time, in drydock on restorations and new-builds and family commitments got in the way, not lack of skills, money, materials or enthusiasm.

 

I knew what I was taking on and I was fully prepared for it.

 

The money has gone to buying a lifeboat and will finance it's maintenance for some years to come. The materials and skills will be spent on other projects (I'm toying with an urge to build a walton replica).

 

If anyone does take on Lucy or Usk then they will get the materials I've accumulated, plus my time and tools.

[saltysplash]

I would point out Hugh, that I've served my time, in drydock on restorations and new-builds and family commitments got in the way, not lack of skills, money, materials or enthusiasm.

 

I knew what I was taking on and I was fully prepared for it.

 

The money has gone to buying a lifeboat and will finance it's maintenance for some years to come. The materials and skills will be spent on other projects (I'm toying with an urge to build a walton replica).

 

If anyone does take on Lucy or Usk then they will get the materials I've accumulated, plus my time and tools.

 

 

Somethings are meant to be, shipmate

 

I think most of us still live in hope for both of the boats but also share your sadness and regret.

 

You can but try

[Chris J W]

It may be classed as sacrilege, but if you don't get any takers for full restoration could you donate/sell the hulls to someone like Jem Bates so that the timbers could be used to help restore other boats?

[NB Alnwick]

Well that's pretty trite and banal and adds nothing useful to the discussion.

 

I think this comment serves to underline the point I made in my third paragraph!

[hughc]

Believe me Carl Lucy and Usk were not the boats I was thinking of when I wrote that many hulls should be left sunk to await the necessary expertise. time and money needed to restore them. I have watched over the years as one hull after another has been at first worked on and then left to rot. In the sixties and seventies it didn't matter too much as there were still lots of wooden hulls around - our first boat was a donated full length conversion which we should never have tackled-but the number of wooden ex-trading narrowboats is reducing year by year and what is left, especially those from smaller builders and fleets should be treated with respect. they shouldn't be dragged out of the water and left to crumble away as has happened TMK to two historically significant hulls in recent years because of mis-placed enthusiasm coupled to a lack of knowledge and ability. There is a Walton boat in reasonable condition at Puttenham. Regards, HughC.

[Oliver1954]

Just a thought, would it be worth the time and effort in applying for a "Heritage Lottery Fund" grant?

 

"Since 1994, the HLF has awarded over £4 billion to more than 27,000 projects across the UK. Last year, four out of five of our grants were for amounts of less than £50,000, many going to small community groups. Our biggest ever grant was £26 million to restore the historic Kennett and Avon canal which runs between Reading and Bristol".

 

http://www.hlf.org.uk/English/HowToApply/O...HeritageGrants/

 

Restoration of canal boats would appear to fit the eligibility criteria that is required for one of these grants.

[magnetman]

The Kennet and Avon seems to be one of BW's biggest headaches at the moment. Will it get closed again or sold off for water based housing? Maybe a long term 'plan' should be worked out before turning on the cash tap.

[AMModels]

You need to have a continuing raison d'etre for the retsoration and the funding for further upkeep . I had intended to restore the boats with the agreement of carl for the use of people with mental illnesses to holiday on them and also to help in the restoration but unfortunately my own ill health has meant I have had to rethink this for the time being hopefully something will turn up and allow both these important boats to be saved.

[NB Alnwick]

The Kennet and Avon seems to be one of BW's biggest headaches at the moment. Will it get closed again or sold off for water based housing? Maybe a long term 'plan' should be worked out before turning on the cash tap.

 

This is always the way with the business of preserving heritage, raising the capital is not easy but Heritage Lottery grants can help enormously. However when it comes to raising the funds necessary for ongoing upkeep and maintenance, then raising the necessary finance is less glamourous and becomes very much harder - often impossible.

[carlt]

It may be classed as sacrilege, but if you don't get any takers for full restoration could you donate/sell the hulls to someone like Jem Bates so that the timbers could be used to help restore other boats?

Unfortunately Jem has enough carcasses of his own and the timbers can't be reused.

 

The only alternative I can see is if they can be got out of the water and dismantled (like they did with Symbol) but it is finding hardstanding.

 

If anyone knows anywhere, for free, I'd use the money that would go to BW to destroy them, to get them out and dismantle them (or, of course, if there was a generous enough time limit, rebuild them).

[carlt]

Thought I'd put in an update, though not good news.

 

I spoke to BW, earlier who have managed to find a surveyor who is so much better than all the others, he can do a hull survey on a boat that is sunk.

 

He has declared that my boats are beyond repair and not worth restoring.

 

What is most disappointing is that Mr Whitling is well respected, in wooden boat circles and has, himself, had a boat restored, by Jem, in much worse condition than either of mine.

 

Still, man's got to earn a living, eh Trevor?

Edited June 10, 2008 by carlt

[NB Alnwick]

Thought I'd put in an update, though not good news.

 

I spoke to BW, earlier who have managed to find a surveyor who is so much better than all the others, he can do a hull survey on a boat that is sunk.

 

He has declared that my boats are beyond repair and not worth restoring.

 

That's bad luck! What's the next step?

[carlt]

That's bad luck! What's the next step?

BW tell me, despite the fact that a man contacted me yesterday expressing interest in restoring Lucy, they intend to destroy the boats, at their moorings, in the very near future.

 

I told the BW woman that both boats were capable of being moved and slipped for dismantling but she wasn't interested.

 

It would seem that the historical significance of a boat is trumped by the need for a "tidy" canal.

 

If I can get the boats out of the water before BW send the dredger in then I will dismantle them myself. It's all a matter of time (not something I've got a lot of, at the moment.

[AMModels]

He goes on my list of never to be used surveyors then, in my opinion only anyone who can do something as crass as condemning two boats whilst under water doesnt deserve my custom or any one elses.

[alan_fincher]

I spoke to BW, earlier who have managed to find a surveyor who is so much better than all the others, he can do a hull survey on a boat that is sunk.

 

He has declared that my boats are beyond repair and not worth restoring.

This is very disappointing news.

 

I'd like to say I'm shocked, but I suppose it's just like the use of expensive consultants in the business I used to be in. Pay someone a load of money to come and give you what you want to be the answer.

 

How BW can earmark a few tatty mud hoppers as heritage boats worthy of a special custodian, whilst wanting to trash real boats with so much history, I really don't understand.

 

Like you, I have heard that particular surveyor talked about as one who can be relied on. Not always, it seems

 

All VERY sad.

[bristol & argo]

This is very disappointing news.

 

Like you, I have heard that particular surveyor talked about as one who can be relied on. Not always, it seems

 

All VERY sad.

 

 

I suspect it depends on the question BW asked him, like can we sell these boats for more than it will cost to do break them up.

In a purely financial equation the answer is always no.

 

 

 

simon.

 

Hopefully there will be time before the Braunston festival for some form of plan to be formented over that weekend..... you never know <fingers crossed>

[carlt]

I suspect it depends on the question BW asked him, like can we sell these boats for more than it will cost to do break them up.

In a purely financial equation the answer is always no.

On the contrary, BW are aware that there is somebody keen to take on the financial burden of restoring Lucy. They even put him in touch with Trevor Whitling and he is still enthusiastic.

 

Exactly the same thing happened when I rescued Taplow. She was sunk to above gunwale height when Malcom Braine (another name respected in the historic boat world) surveyed her, at BW's expense.

 

The last sentence of his "survey" read "Perhaps the kindest thing would be to let the old girl go"

 

She was floating and moving under her own steam within a week of that survey, BSCed and licensed a month later and docked for a proper survey, and some minor remedial work within 3 months.

[magpie patrick]

Feel a bit powerless here Carl, as we all do: variuos thoughts had gone through my mind for a futire for these (and possibly other) boats but it sounds like in a few days they may have no future.

 

First thing: despite reading repeated posts I don't actually know where these boats are. Without that knowledge I can't protest to anyone who might listen that BW are wrecking the heritage of the canals with this attitude (I am actually raising the issue of treating historic boats in the same manner as kanckered unlicensed springers or whatever). Neither can others. I know you don't like the limelight but a few more details may make it possible to make a cause celebre out of Usk and Lucy, so they're either saved or at worst BW get so browbeaten they take more care in future.

 

Second: is there any way to appeal above said officers head for a stay of execution while the prospective buyer gets their act together

 

Third: point taken about people who are paid to give the right answer but anyone with a conscience (or at least me in my line of consultancy) should have the balls to say to the client "you are asking the wrong question". Trevor Whitling surveyed Ripple for me and did exactly that, and then gave me the answers I needed, but then it's a steel narrow boat only seven years old.

 

Fourth, are BW really allowed to remove your boats without due process including appeal?