Can anyone identify...

[Chertsey]

Well not exactly a stampede to guess this one!

 

It's a Josher and in BW colours so that narrows it down quite a bit. The only two that spring to mind are Lynx and Rudd - although Dory was painted in BW colours for a while I think it was FMC by summer 2006. Rudd has the yellow and blue the other way round on the swans neck - so....

 

It's the Lynx. The early steamer-type counter and the just visible green side cloths seem to confirm it.

 

Matt's site

 

Other working boat sites are available.

 

I believe it is owned by Fred Heritage (old boatman) and moors at Brewood. So is this where the pic was taken Liam?

 

Paul H

 

I'm probably wrong as everyone else seems so certain, but my first thought was, that doesn't look like a josher fore end, and my second thought, after looking at the Lynx pics, was that doesn't look like Lynx's fore end.

 

When you said Brewood, my immediate thought was Henry Hollingshead's Cetus, but I think that's got a full length conversion hasn't it?

[Hairy-Neil]

Cetus, but I think that's got a full length conversion hasn't it?

 

Definitely.....

[Liam]

I didn't think it was Rudd, as this doesn't kick up so much at the back end, as previously mentioned, like the older boats/converted steamers, and although it can't be used as solid evidence (as you can change this, obviously) but Rudd tends to sit more level in the water, much more than the boat in the picture.

 

I can't really see the bows that much but from what I can see, and from what I can see of the back end, it's definitely a Josher. I've taken a look at some of the other pics of Lynx around and there is a striking resemblance between the two coupled with the fact that on Drew's Josher pages, it says that it's been spotted around that area recently.

 

I have been going through some more pictures which I took on the run back from Tring to the Bridgewater in 2005 and most of the boats that I took a pic of, you can clearly see their name on the cabin side or bows but there is one or two which I wouldn't mind finding out more about and so, when you're ready for them I'll post them up here!

 

Btw, Andy, did you receive the bunch of pics I sent the other day? If you did, and, if you'd like more, I can send them over.

 

Liam.

[AMModels]

No mate, I tried to reply to you to let you know there was an error in the email but looks like you didnt get it. Just got an empty email with an error message when I tried to open it.

[Liam]

Very strange...

 

Anyway, instead of re-sending the email, as it may bounce again, I've uploaded the pictures onto my webspace, here. Have a browse through and feel free to take any ones you fancy.

 

I shall leave this up for the time being as I have loads of spare space/bandwidth.

[alan_fincher]

An easy one, I feel sure, for those in the know.....

 

My OH's family snapped this Blue Line pair, probably in Easter 1969.

 

(Apologies for very poor image quality, which is from a lousy slide, of some strange non standard format).

 

 

I'm 90% sure I know which pair, but just checking!

 

I guess if you can tell a blurred Bill Whitlock from a blurred Ernest Kendall that would clinch it, even if you didn't know which boats!

Edited June 6, 2008 by alan_fincher

[Liam]

An easy one, I feel sure, for those in the know.....

 

My OH's family snapped this Blue Line pair, probably in Easter 1969.

 

(Apologies for very poor image quality, which is from a lousy slide, of some strange non standard format).

 

 

I'm 90% sure I know which pair, but just checking!

 

I guess if you can tell a blurred Bill Whitlock from a blurred Ernest Kendall that would clinch it, even if you didn't know which boats!

 

PM sent

[carlt]

An easy one, I feel sure, for those in the know.....

 

My OH's family snapped this Blue Line pair, probably in Easter 1969.

 

(Apologies for very poor image quality, which is from a lousy slide, of some strange non standard format).

 

 

I'm 90% sure I know which pair, but just checking!

 

I guess if you can tell a blurred Bill Whitlock from a blurred Ernest Kendall that would clinch it, even if you didn't know which boats!

What's more intriguing is that really familiar looking foreend, moored up.

[alan_fincher]

What's more intriguing is that really familiar looking foreend, moored up.

Oh come on Carl!

 

At least confirm the pair for me!

 

Renfrew and Lucy ?

 

(And if so, what tells you that, please ?)

[carlt]

It's Lucy because the front end looks like a Nurser (Oh...it's an old photo)

 

I'm guessing but...I think it's Raymond because (all these could be dismissed by the dodgy quality and awkward angle, btw):

 

No evidence of top plank or slack boards, I've never seen a picture of Lucy "undressed", which is probably why I still have all her running gear (except her running blocks, grrr)

Difficult from this angle but the back cabin looks the right length, Lucy's is 2' overlength.

There's something going on with the butty stem iron that's different to Lucy's,

Hold door looks wider than Lucy's,

Man looks wider than Bill Whitlock,

and finally, it just "feels" like Nutfield, but I can offer no evidence, other than gut feeling, I've never had a good look at Renfrew.

[alan_fincher]

Thanks Carl,

 

Actually I think it is Lucy, but not because of any knowledge I have as to what the two butties each looked like.

 

The reasons are far more spurious, and down to information you didn't have access too....

 

The pictures were taken when my OH was in her teens, and her family hired a Wyvern boat from Leighton Buzzard.

 

The posted picture clearly shows one of the Blue Line pairs with a Nurser butty running North through Braunston, empty.

 

In the same set of slides, there are pictures taken of a similar unloaded Blue Line pair descending Braunston locks, whilst the Wyvern boat is being taken south.

 

That picture almost certainly shows Raymond, although the quality is appalling - probably too bad to scan and post.

 

I know the Brays and the Whitlocks didn't hang about, but doubt they could have managed to go up, load, down to London, unload, and get back to Braunston in the time my OH's family hired the boat. (i.e. They can't have passed the same unloaded pair twice).

 

So if it can't be the same pair in both pictures, and as I think the other is Raymond, I think this one must be Lucy.

 

But if I just had the one picture to go by, I think my vote would have been Raymond!

[alan_fincher]

For what it's worth, I've tried cropping out the other pair that was photographed, (badly!).

 

 

Clearly not the same pair.

 

With a man steering, it's not likely to be the Whitlocks, if you believe all the stories. (Guess it's Ernie Kendall, as doesn't seem to have characteristics of Arthur Bray).

 

Also you can just about read "Raymond" on the original, and butty cabin looks "normal" length.

 

So if it's Raymond in this one, I think it has to be Lucy in the other.

 

Waddya think ?

[Paul H]

I also think the original picture was of Renfrew and Lucy.

 

On Nutfield and Raymond Ernie steered the motor, Rose the butty and Arthur did the deck work and lockwheeling. Clearly this isn't Arthur by the mast (no trilby!). Yes it does look bulkier than you'd expect of Bill Whitlock but I think that's just the coat - and he appears to be wearing his trademark beret. Famously he was never allowed to steer.

 

What looks like the butty back end door is I think a cloth hanging down which some boaters used to keep coal dust and drafts from coming through the gaps round the door. I can alsopursuade myself that you can also (just) see the unique walking board down the centre of Lucy's roof. I have never seen this on another boat and I wonder if Carl has any idea why it was there.

 

Lucy's cabin was built 2ft longer as Carl says for John Knill and there was an extra "single"cross bed behind the normal "double" one. Ray Williams who bought Lucy off the Whitlocks to pair with Aster told me it was where poor old Bill used to sleep. It was also said that he was never let on the boat during the daytime but hope this was an exaggeration.

 

Paul H

[carlt]

Blown up, that looks like a man steering Nutfield/Renfrew which makes a two man, one woman team = Raymond and Nutfield.

 

I think it's the same pair in both shots.

 

 

I can alsopursuade myself that you can also (just) see the unique walking board down the centre of Lucy's roof. I have never seen this on another boat and I wonder if Carl has any idea why it was there.

 

Paul H

The board, I believe, protected the mushrooms which were very unusual in that they had flat tops, with glass in them.

 

I've never seen these type of mushrooms before.

 

I'm now ploughing through my photos to find one to post.

[alan_fincher]

Blown up, that looks like a man steering Nutfield/Renfrew........................

No, I reckon it's a woman, probably Laura Carter, who seems to have been the main steerer of the motor. Quite a few book photos of her show her in a headscarf, and I think I can just make that out.

 

I still think it's the Whitlocks, and can easily imagine that as Bill at the front, (he is really quite stocky in some photos).

 

It's hard to explain coherently, but I can't see how the two pairs can be the same, if taken from the Wyvern boat, which is on it's way back South in the second picture, (I've cropped that out, but you can see the steerer - a very young version of my brother in law). If they passed that pair heading North in the flight, they had already left Braunston, so were not then in a place to picture it passing through again further North.

 

I think I've convinced myself.

 

Very hard to see, but is it possible the motor in the second shot (almost certainly Nutfield), has it's cratch erected ?

 

I'll see if I can find out the sequence of the original slides, and ensure all were taken close together.

[Paul H]

I've been going through my picture books and it is astonishing how few pictures there are of the boats empty. Did they go back under cover of darkness or on the back of lorries?

 

What you can also just about see on Alan's pic is a green plastic water carrier on the roof of the butty. This is evident on a number of other pictures of Lucy around 1970 (eg Waterways World March 1996). That's not to say that Raymond didn't have one as well but such an untraditional item was rare on working boats and I never saw one on Raymond.

 

Another clue and Alan might be able to spot it on the original is that Nutfield seemed to have a tin extension in the top of the stove chimney whereas Renfrew did not.

 

Bit warm for an anorak today isn't it?

 

Paul

[alan_fincher]

Bit warm for an anorak today isn't it?

 

It's hard to tell, but I don't think there is a chimney extension in the first pic. There might be in the second, but it's really not clear enough.

 

I don't currently haveaccess to the original slides, unfortunately.

 

Like you I can't find many published pictures of the boats empty.

 

One wobbly, I have notice is that not only does Bill Whitloick (Renfrew / Lucy) often sport a beret, so does Ernest Kendall (Nutfield / Raymond). Both even seem to wear similar length dark jackets or coats, so the presence of a chap in a beret and short dark coat doesn't help us too much, it seems.

 

However quite a few published pictures of Lucy clearly sjow that highly non traditional green water carrier.

 

Anyway, I've convinced myseld it's Lucy!....

[carlt]

Quite a few book photos of her show her in a headscarf, and I think I can just make that out.

I took the headgear to be a trilby but, with my antique monitor, it could be an indian chief's headdress.

 

This is one of Lucy's mushrooms, btw:

 

 

 

 

[alan_fincher]

I've never seen anything quite like those mushrooms - it's rather a pity you can't buy them like that!

 

On revisiting more books and old magazines, that water carrier that Paul pointed out features prominently in many of the pictures. It even matches the colour in other photos, and seems to have lasted into the Whitlock's retirement.

 

I suspect this may even be it on the back end here, although the colours in this photo were always a bit suspect......

 

 

Nothing like it on any picture of Raymond. I'm absolutely comvinced it's Lucy.

 

Something else didn't occur to me before....

 

Usually pictures of breasted pairs have the motor on the left, and the butty on the right, presumably so the motor gets the deeper water when passing.

 

But both the Blue Line pairs pictured here have motor to the right. I'm guessing this is in anticipation of, or just after, a stop on the bank outside the Blue Line entrance, where, if I recall right, there isn't enough depth to get a motor's back end in close to the bank.

 

For the pair apparently setting off North, one wonders just how far they would have pressed on with the boats breasted - obviously they are not about to tackle any locks.

 

Might as well post the other end of Lucy, whilst I'm at it.....

 

Edited June 8, 2008 by alan_fincher

[carlt]

I've never seen anything quite like those mushrooms - it's rather a pity you can't buy them like that!

No I've not come across them before.

 

They don't have the feel of "one-offs", though. The castings are so clean they don't appear hand-made.

 

One day I'll polish them up and look for a maker's mark but I've got 4 extremely large (and two giant) lifeboat vent funnels to polish up first (note to self: Never utter the sentence "Hey! These are solid brass, under the paint" to swmbo again).

[Paul H]

I took the headgear to be a trilby but, with my antique monitor, it could be an indian chief's headdress.

 

This is one of Lucy's mushrooms, btw:

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that Carl - very interesting. They're certainly unusual but for those that are interested similar vents are available from Davey and Company.

 

Traditional boater's porn site - www.davey.co.uk

 

http://www.davey.co.uk/pdf/deck_hardware.pdf

 

I would deduce that the board was necessary on Lucy to stop the tow line when using running blocks from snagging on these vents when taking up the slack.

 

Paul H

[carlt]

I would deduce that the board was necessary on Lucy to stop the tow line when using running blocks from snagging on these vents when taking up the slack.

 

Paul H

The board wasn't fixed down, though, so I'd have thought the board being flipped up and into harm's way would be more annoying than snagging on the vents.

 

I always assumed they protected the glass from segged boots and suchlike.

[Tim Lewis]

As we seem to have a few historic boat experts on this forum I could do with help with identifying a few from my photo collection - have guessed one of them!

 

http://www.pbase.com/timlewis/unknown&page=all

 

All help appreciated.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

I think No 7

 

(7 Southern GU 14th April 2006.)

 

is probably Caldy.

 

Edit:

Having second thought now, after Neil's subsequent comment. I don't think it is now.

 

 

A horrible BW cabin has been retained at the rear end, which somewhat ruins any attempt to make a nice looking boat of it.

 

Carl can fill you in on number 9!

 

I've no idea what 3, (edited to correct the number), is, but am sure I saw it recently. It has to be one of the straightest wooden motors I've seen in many a year - I hope someone can identify it.

 

Alan

Edited June 13, 2008 by alan_fincher

[Hairy-Neil]

All help appreciated.

 

Tim

 

7 Southern GU 14th April 2006......... A hunch says it's Cambourne, though cabin extension is new to me.

 

8 Hatton To Calcutt 7th April 2007.......... Think this pair is Aquila & Bingley

 

13 GU Uxbridge 28 29 April 2007 Poss Columba.......... I agree on Columba

 

14 GU Dedale To Lapworth March 2007 ..... Could it be Algol?

Edited June 12, 2008 by Hairy-Neil