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Posted

A thought experiment. 

 

Let's imagine someone wants to sell their lovely canal narrowboat, built in, say 1999 by a builder long dead and the business shut down a decade or two ago.

 

Let's also imagine the the builder was awfully responsible and would definitely have made all the right declarations in order to comply with the RCD in force at the time, but the 13 intermediate owners have somehow lost all the paperwork. 

 

What would be required to demonstrate compliance at the 'first sale' stage? In fact would it be possible at all?

 

And on another tack, how easy might it be for a shady seller to persuade a gullible and grasping broker that said 1999 boat complies when in actual fact, it never did? 

 

Just wonderin'...

 

 

 

Posted

Surely easier to just say the Boat was built in 1996. 

  • Greenie 2
Posted
4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Surely easier to just say the Boat was built in 1996. 

 

Dear Buyer. 

 

When would you like this boat to have been built? 

 

Think carefully.....

 

 

  • Greenie 1
Posted

To Arthur's point, it may be easier to prove a 1999 boat does not need RCD.... if it has no hin plate etc.... 

 

What is the situation with say a 1997 shell fitted out over 2,3 or 4 years ? 

Posted
1 minute ago, jonathanA said:

To Arthur's point, it may be easier to prove a 1999 boat does not need RCD.... if it has no hin plate etc.... 

 

What is the situation with say a 1997 shell fitted out over 2,3 or 4 years ? 

 

It's a good point. Rather than spend £6,000 on a PCA, it might be cheaper to grind off any maker's plate and declare it a pre-16/6/97 boat. 

 

Interestingly, my own boat was purchased by me as a year 2000 build with no maker's plate, HIN or anything on it. I'm beginning to conclude the seller was wrong and it is pre-1997. 

 

 

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

It's a good point. Rather than spend £6,000 on a PCA, it might be cheaper to grind off any maker's plate and declare it a pre-16/6/97 boat. 

 

Interestingly, my own boat was purchased by me as a year 2000 build with no maker's plate, HIN or anything on it. I'm beginning to conclude the seller was wrong and it is pre-1997. 

 

 

If you buy a boat does it not come with paperwork .? 

I wanted to be sure the vendor owned the boat so that was the first thing i had sent before travelling, it was no problem

The other boat on my radar failed the test, though by chance I spoke to the farmer who owned his mooring. It was a project, and I thought that meant a tin of Dulux!

Edited by LadyG
Posted
7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

If you buy a boat does it not come with paperwork .?

 

If a boat I want has no paperwork, I'll still buy it if I'm satisfied it is a legit sale. 

 

 

  • Greenie 1
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

If a boat I want has no paperwork, I'll still buy it if I'm satisfied it is a legit sale. 

 

 

So it's unlicenced, uninsured and has no BSC?

The owner may have lost the original paperwork but surely current paperwork can be replaced on demand.

 

 

Edited by LadyG
Posted
11 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

If a boat I want has no paperwork, I'll still buy it if I'm satisfied it is a legit sale. 

 

 

 

Yes. If it is a blatantly dodgy person with shifty looking eyes selling it then its probably not legit. 

 

A worry would be a situation where someone presenting as non dodgy with alright eyes had a load of new looking paperwork.

 

They could have just forged it. 

 

A minefield. 

 

Best thing is to just not buy a Boat in the first place. This would solve a lot of other problems. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted
1 hour ago, LadyG said:

So it's unlicenced, uninsured and has no BSC?

The owner may have lost the original paperwork but surely current paperwork can be replaced on demand.

 

 

 

Yep. Happy to buy boats like that if the price takes it into account. 

 

But thats not relevant. We are discussing how to verify a 25-year old copy of a RCD Certificate of Compliance. I didn't even know what one looks like until Alan posted one (in French) on here earlier today, let alone how to distinguish it from a forgery. 

 

I still don't know how to tell if one is real. I take it you have the RCD Certificate of Compliance for YOUR boat? How do you know yours is real and not a fake? 

 

 

Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yep. Happy to buy boats like that if the price takes it into account. 

 

But thats not relevant. We are discussing how to verify a 25-year old copy of a RCD Certificate of Compliance. I didn't even know what one looks like until Alan posted one (in French) on here earlier today, let alone how to distinguish it from a forgery. 

 

I still don't know how to tell if one is real. I take it you have the RCD Certificate of Compliance for YOUR boat? How do you know yours is real and not a fake? 

 

 

I have a steel narrowboat not a modern plastic yacht badged by Beneteau.

It has appropriate paperwork. 

Edited by LadyG
Posted
2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No, the boat builder , a company with approx 100 years in the business did not issue one. There is no HIN or rubbish CE marking.

 

So YOU bought a boat without an RCD, lol!! 

 

 

Listen, are those police sirens wailing in the distance??! 🤣

 

 

  • Happy 1
Posted
2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

So YOU bought a boat without an RCD, lol!! 

 

 

Listen, are those police sirens wailing in the distance??! 🤣

 

 

It's more likely to reduce it's value. Maybe by as much as 5k a year over 5 years.

  • Haha 1
Posted
Just now, Rod Stewart said:

It's more likely to reduce it's value. Maybe by as much as 5k a year over 5 years.

 

I was just thinking that. But more like just a £6k one-off hit, to pay for the PCA necessary to make it legal to sell it... 

 

 

Posted
1 minute ago, Rod Stewart said:

It's more likely to reduce it's value. Maybe by as much as 5k a year over 5 years.

I won't sleep tonight.

  • Haha 1
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I was just thinking that. But more like just a £6k one-off hit, to pay for the PCA necessary to make it legal to sell it... 

 

Except it's not illegal to sell or buy a secondhand boat without a PCA/RCD, as has been said innumerable times on CWDF and indeed on this very thread... 😉 

 

Though I'm sure Alan will -- yet again! -- claim otherwise, this is what several brokers believe and have publicly stated on their websites, presumably having taken legal advice to confirm this so they don't drop themselves in the legal doo-doo.

 

Whether you believe them or Alan is of course purely a matter of opinion... 😉 

Edited by IanD
Posted

A question for Alan, given that  it is now not possible for a home builder/completer to sign their own rcd are all those rcds signed off by homebuilders and  given a HIN number by the RYA before this new interpretation of the law now illegal? If so when are the RYA appearing in court?

Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, MtB said:

I still don't know how to tell if one is real. I take it you have the RCD Certificate of Compliance for YOUR boat? How do you know yours is real and not a fake? 

 

I thought that the required document (alongside a HIN, manual and a CE plate) was a Declaration of Conformity from the builder identifying the boat and standards to which it has been built.  Isn't it a self declaration rather than a process of certification, which would imply another party checking it?

Edited by alias
Posted
On 03/02/2025 at 19:48, MtB said:

 

 

What would be required to demonstrate compliance at the 'first sale' stage? 

 

A good start would be evidence of a HIN and a CE plate.

 

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

A question for Alan, given that  it is now not possible for a home builder/completer to sign their own rcd are all those rcds signed off by homebuilders and  given a HIN number by the RYA before this new interpretation of the law now illegal? If so when are the RYA appearing in court?

 

The 'new' saialway fit out rules came out in 2017 - it was about that time that the RYA passed the responsibility back to the Government saying they couldn't take the role any longer as the industry refused to comply with the law.

 

 

46 minutes ago, alias said:

 

I thought that the required document (alongside a HIN, manual and a CE plate) was a Declaration of Conformity from the builder identifying the boat and standards to which it has been built.  Isn't it a self declaration rather than a process of certification, which would imply another party checking it?

 

Both.

A suitably qualified company employee can sign to say the boat has been built in full compliance with the 'regulations at the time' known as self certification, and the company take the responsibilty and costs if it is subsequently found to be non compliant.

 

Outside of the 'cottage industry' of NB building it seems most boat builders actually use one of the approved certifiers (notified bodies) of which there are two in the UK.

 

Below, you will notice that despite employing over 8000 people the manufacturer of my 'Cat' (Construction Navale) they do not issue their own Cerificates of Conformance, the use a 'notified body' (ICNN) which then take full responsibility for the build of the boat, and 'take the heat' if it is  found to be non-compliant.

 

Lagoon-380-CE-declaration-certificate-of-compliance.png

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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