Clicking when trying to start engine

[Lizette]

Hi All

I hope everyone is fine and dandy!

Ok,so I am attempting to start my engine and it is making a continuous clicking sound.

The battery is showing good voltage,the connections seem fine.

I suspect the starter motor.

Any views or ideas,especially from the fab Tony Brookes would be great!

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, Lizette said:

The battery is showing good voltage,the connections seem fine.

 

You can call me Tony !

 

What is the battery voltage reading when you are trying to start the engine ?

Are all connections on the battery and on the starter motor 'gorilla tight' ?

[Higgs]

A good clean of terminals sorted that little problem for me. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Yes, both the above are good advice.

 

Measure the voltage while you are trying to crank the engine. Do it on the cable clamps, not the lead post. You need it to maintain 10V (Lucas figure), but I dont get too worried about 9.5V as long a sit is not dropping to a marked extent.

 

If the voltage drops below those figures, then:

 

1. Clean the terminals' mating surfaces to bright metal, dress with Vaseline, and refit. maybe not gorilla tight because that can snap the pots out of the battery lid, but properly tight.

 

2. If it still drops, the battery is probably flat or faulty, but it could be a shorting starter motor, so feel the body to see if it is getting well warm.

 

3. This is rare but if the hold in coil inside the starter solenoid detaches one end it will do exactly what you describe, but the cranking voltage would be closer to the rested voltage.

 

4. A seized or jammed engine can also cause this, but in your case it i very unlikely unless it has sucked up some water.

 

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Engine model?

A new fault or has it been like this for some time?

Did you change anything before this started happening?

How long since you ran the engine?

Where are you?

[Tacet]

Are you sure the battery showing a good voltage is  the same one that serves the starter motor?

[Tony Brooks]

56 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Are you sure the battery showing a good voltage is  the same one that serves the starter motor?

 

A very good point.

[MtB]

And what is this "good voltage", I find myself wondering...

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

51 minutes ago, MtB said:

And what is this "good voltage", I find myself wondering...

 

 

Until confirmed, I suspect that it is the open circuit voltage, not the cranking voltage. So if the battery is discharged the OP could easily get over 12V dropping to sub 8V during cranking.

 

This is the first thing that needs clarifying.

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Until confirmed, I suspect that it is the open circuit voltage, not the cranking voltage. So if the battery is discharged the OP could easily get over 12V dropping to sub 8V during cranking.

 

This is the first thing that needs clarifying.

 

Yes. 

 

And then, once the off-load voltage has been confirmed as high enough, the voltage with the key turned to 'cranking' (starting) position please. So far we have focussed on how much it drops by.

 

But the battery voltage might hardly drop at all when the key is held in the start position, in which case this indicates solenoid switch failure or worn out brushes to me. But you know more than I do! 

 

Also, giving the starter motor a sharp clout with something heavy (but not metal) will sometimes get a starter motor doing this working again temporarily. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes. 

 

And then, once the off-load voltage has been confirmed as high enough, the voltage with the key turned to 'cranking' (starting) position please. So far we have focussed on how much it drops by.

 

But the battery voltage might hardly drop at all when the key is held in the start position, in which case this indicates solenoid switch failure or worn out brushes to me. But you know more than I do! 

 

Also, giving the starter motor a sharp clout with something heavy (but not metal) will sometimes get a starter motor doing this working again temporarily. 

 

 

 

But it is clicking, so that indicates the solenoid is probably engaging and disengaging (Machine gunning) and the usual cause is something preventing the battery from delivering enough current to the starter. So the stationary starter tries to pull a huge current, that pulls the voltage down enough for the solenoid to disengage. The load comes off the battery, so it all repeats itself.

 

If it were a sticking brush the motor would be likely to spin but at reduced speed and there was no mention of that. This is where a sharp tap with something non-metallic may help.

 

If the solenoid contacts were not making a good contact the motor could not pull the voltage down so it should not machine gun.

 

It would machine gun if the solenoid hold in coil was open circuit, but that is a very rare faault.

[Arthur Marshall]

Mine suffered that when the earth connection got seriously filthy. Seemed too simple a cause to be true.

[Alan de Enfield]

Maybe the problem has gone away - nothing heard back from the OP.

@Lizette

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Mine suffered that when the earth connection got seriously filthy. Seemed too simple a cause to be true.

 

 

That is when, after the tests I described show no faults, you should really do volt drop tests. In this case, a voltmeter between battery "post" negative and the starter negative terminal or body and operate the starter. I bet if you did that you would have found close to battery voltage rather than a few 10ths of a volt.

[jacko264]

Try tapping the starter with a hammer on its side  then see if it starts

[Alan de Enfield]

Maybe we are wasting our time.

She (he, it) visited the site just before lunchtime today, but no comments or response to the questions asked.

[jacko264]

It can be very annoying . people spend time trying to help others and they are  ungrateful 

[Tracy D'arth]

They probably found the flat battery.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, jacko264 said:

It can be very annoying . people spend time trying to help others and they are  ungrateful 

 

Threads like this where the OP ignores the responses also help future visitors with the same problem, however. So they are not actually a waste of effort. 

 

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

They probably found the flat battery.

 

Yes Occam's Razor wins again, I bet! 

 

 

https://www.newscientist.com/definition/occams-razor/

 

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Threads like this where the OP ignores the responses also help future visitors with the same problem, however. So they are not actually a waste of effort. 

 

 

But if the OP came back and told us what they found, it would be even more valuable for others looking to solve a similar sounding problem.

 

I think that if someone asks for help, they should at least knowledge that help, even if it turns out to be wrong. I think just ignoring the thread is just plain rude.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But if the OP came back and told us what they found, it would be even more valuable for others looking to solve a similar sounding problem.

 

I think that if someone asks for help, they should at least knowledge that help, even if it turns out to be wrong. I think just ignoring the thread is just plain rude.

 

True.

 

And curiously, doing a bit of pop philosophy reading up on why Occam's Razor is not as much help as one might first expect regarding whether God exists, or not, It came up with almost exactly the starter motor scenario we've been discussing!! 

 

"But some caution is needed. If Ockham’s razor is used properly it can be a very helpful tool, but if used incorrectly it can become a dangerous instrument. First, consider a scenario where Ockham’s razor works. Suppose your car won’t start. Two possible explanations are a) that the battery is faulty and b) that the starter motor is faulty. You call a mechanic who quickly determines that there is indeed a problem with the battery. Since this would explain why the car didn’t start, there is no longer any reason to think that there is a problem with the starter motor. Ockham’s razor removes the need for the further explanation. Or to put it another way, the truth of the faulty battery hypothesis has explained away the faulty starter motor hypothesis. Of course, it is possible that there is a problem with both the battery and the starter motor. That cannot be ruled out until the car starts, but it would be really unlucky; based on the evidence so far and the application of Ockham’s razor, one explanation is sufficient."

 

https://philosophynow.org/issues/115/Science_Ockhams_Razor_and_God

 

P.S. Ockham and Occam are interchangeable spellings apparently, for the village near Guildford where the chap lived. 

 

 

[Hudds Lad]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

True.

 

And curiously, doing a bit of pop philosophy reading up on why Occam's Razor is not as much help as one might first expect regarding whether God exists, or not, It came up with almost exactly the starter motor scenario we've been discussing!! 

 

"But some caution is needed. If Ockham’s razor is used properly it can be a very helpful tool, but if used incorrectly it can become a dangerous instrument. First, consider a scenario where Ockham’s razor works. Suppose your car won’t start. Two possible explanations are a) that the battery is faulty and b) that the starter motor is faulty. You call a mechanic who quickly determines that there is indeed a problem with the battery. Since this would explain why the car didn’t start, there is no longer any reason to think that there is a problem with the starter motor. Ockham’s razor removes the need for the further explanation. Or to put it another way, the truth of the faulty battery hypothesis has explained away the faulty starter motor hypothesis. Of course, it is possible that there is a problem with both the battery and the starter motor. That cannot be ruled out until the car starts, but it would be really unlucky; based on the evidence so far and the application of Ockham’s razor, one explanation is sufficient."

 

https://philosophynow.org/issues/115/Science_Ockhams_Razor_and_God

 

P.S. Ockham and Occam are interchangeable spellings apparently, for the village near Guildford where the chap lived. 

 

 

Surely at that point Sod's Law comes into play?  

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

True.

 

And curiously, doing a bit of pop philosophy reading up on why Occam's Razor is not as much help as one might first expect regarding whether God exists, or not, It came up with almost exactly the starter motor scenario we've been discussing!! 

 

"But some caution is needed. If Ockham’s razor is used properly it can be a very helpful tool, but if used incorrectly it can become a dangerous instrument. First, consider a scenario where Ockham’s razor works. Suppose your car won’t start. Two possible explanations are a) that the battery is faulty and b) that the starter motor is faulty. You call a mechanic who quickly determines that there is indeed a problem with the battery. Since this would explain why the car didn’t start, there is no longer any reason to think that there is a problem with the starter motor. Ockham’s razor removes the need for the further explanation. Or to put it another way, the truth of the faulty battery hypothesis has explained away the faulty starter motor hypothesis. Of course, it is possible that there is a problem with both the battery and the starter motor. That cannot be ruled out until the car starts, but it would be really unlucky; based on the evidence so far and the application of Ockham’s razor, one explanation is sufficient."

 

https://philosophynow.org/issues/115/Science_Ockhams_Razor_and_God

 

P.S. Ockham and Occam are interchangeable spellings apparently, for the village near Guildford where the chap lived. 

 

 

 

And that is why it can be difficult and tedious giving advice and trying to cover all possibilities. In this thread, Arthur came up with another possibility that I had not considered because it is, in my view, an exceptionally rare fault. However, if the OP had come back with the results of the tests I suggested, and they seemed OK I would have considered the next set of tests and    explained them.

[Lizette]

Hi All

So sorry, I have spent all day removing starter motor ,testing battery etc. It seems the battery id defunked but an experienced boater had said he will take it and see if he can work some magic.

The starter motor was thoroughly cleaned and tested and was working off the boat. Tested with someone else's battery.All fine and dandy until I returned it to its rightful place .Although it's no longer clicking it isn't starting the boat. 

It's a mystery! Any next move suggestions?

 

I am still getting through all of the replies.Thankyou so much.

 

On 11/04/2024 at 18:50, Tony Brooks said:

A very good point.

Although my starter battery was initially showing 13.0. A further test was done by my neighbour which showed the battery was very poor.

He had a special tool that I don't have . Showing the 'cranking' voltage. I 🤔

[Tony Brooks]

Sorry to say this after you did all that work, but the idea of test procedures is to avoid unnecessary work, so if you had followed the test procedure I gave you it would almost certainly have shown that you had a flat or faulty battery.

 

I am not going to say much more until I can see some test results, but there is every chance that your next move is to buy a new battery. The existing one may have a shorting cell or be badly sulphated, unless you left it unattended and charged over the winter, in which case a good charge might recover it enough to get it working for now.