HS2 and the Grand Union

[MtB]

31 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I prefer to drive and know that I will get there

 

Not only that but one can take toolboxes full of gear and piles of spare parts when driving.

 

A point totally missed by most public transport enthusiasts. 

 

 

I reckon approx 50% of vehicles on the road are carrying some sort of payload which could not be done by public transport. 

 

 

 

[JungleJames]

34 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

My recollection is that the DLR on-train staff were called "Train Captains" when the first lines opened. I don't know what they are called now.  It was reported that, when Her Majesty officially opened the DLR, she arrived early and, as there was no easy way of over-riding the automatic system to make the train depart sooner, the Royal party  had to wait for several minutes until the train started at its pre-programmed time.  

 

The busy suburban lines from London into Essex have/used to have around five sets of four-aspect colour light signals to the mile in the inner area.  When a train passed, a signal,  it would go red. When it passed the next signal, that red would go to single amber. When it passed the next signal, the amber would go double amber. It would stay double amber for the next few signals passed, and then go green. So the driver of a following train would know roughly how far ahead the next train was, and adjust his speed accordingly.

 

If you were sitting behind the driver's cab, you could hear the audible signals the system generated through the wall.  From memory, green produced no sound, double amber sounded  an electric  bell, and (when the line was congested and trains were crawling, a not uncommon occurance when approaching Liverpool Street in the morning rush hour),  a single amber sounded a hooter. I understand that attempting to pass a red would have applied the brakes.  The sound signals allowed trains to continue running at around 90 second headways in the fogs we used to get at one time but rarely get now. 

 

 

Green produces the 'ding'. 

Double yellow, single yellow and red produce the klaxon type sound.

If you don't acknowledge the klaxon the brakes will be applied. 

 

Likewise most signals have TPWS grids prior to them. They activate when the signal is red (I think its only at red anyway). Go over these at too high a speed, and the brakes will apply.

[Ronaldo47]

Thanks for the clarification, it's been years since I commuted into London.

[Captain Pegg]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Please, will you explain what happens if the driver does not knowledge the ATP (or whatever) buzzer/hooter within time? I was under the impression that the brakes came on automatically.

The emergency brake will be activated. That’s done by venting the air pipe to atmosphere meaning the driver has no immediate means of releasing the brakes. It’s very much not the same thing as applying the service brakes.

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

The emergency brake will be activated. That’s done by venting the air pipe to atmosphere meaning the driver has no immediate means of releasing the brakes. It’s very much not the same thing as applying the service brakes.

 

I think that both you and JJ are acknowledging that train brakes can be and are at times applied automatically. If you are, then you can't claim that they are not automatic, as Tracy claimed. If, for whatever reason, the driver fails to make the correct response, the brakes do come on with no intervention from the driver. Basically in everyday use you are both correct, they are not automatic, but in a dangerous situation they do come on automatically. We saw at Croydon what happens when such systems are not in use.

[Captain Pegg]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that both you and JJ are acknowledging that train brakes can be and are at times applied automatically. If you are, then you can't claim that they are not automatic, as Tracy claimed. If, for whatever reason, the driver fails to make the correct response, the brakes do come on with no intervention from the driver. Basically in everyday use you are both correct, they are not automatic, but in a dangerous situation they do come on automatically. We saw at Croydon what happens when such systems are not in use.

I think you mean Clapham not Croydon and in any case the functioning of the automatic warning system was not a factor.

 

The use of the engineered safeguards to protect the train is not part of driving a train properly which is the task being discussed. It’s quite the opposite.

 

But apparently it’s a wind up so I’ll leave you and your mate to glory in your own ignorance.

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I think you mean Clapham not Croydon and in any case the functioning of the automatic warning system was not a factor.

 

The use of the engineered safeguards to protect the train is not part of driving a train properly which is the task being discussed. It’s quite the opposite.

 

But apparently it’s a wind up so I’ll leave you and your mate to glory in your own ignorance.

 

I meant the Croydon tram where, for whatever reason, the driver did not slow the tram down for a sharp bend. I understand the enquiry was critical because the tram had no automatic braking system.

[Captain Pegg]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I meant the Croydon tram where, for whatever reason, the driver did not slow the tram down for a sharp bend. I understand the enquiry was critical because the tram had no automatic braking system.

OK. Very different rules and requirements on tramways hence it didn’t occur to me that’s what you were referring to. Sorry.

 

Similar situations have occurred on railways historically and as a result are in general protected by warning systems.
 

Mistakes that lead to uncommanded brake applications will soon lead to a driver being removed from driving duties. They are an indicator that the driver concerned isn’t actually capable of driving a train to the required standard which I thought is what we were discussing.

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

OK. Very different rules and requirements on tramways hence it didn’t occur to me that’s what you were referring to. Sorry.

 

Similar situations have occurred on railways historically and as a result are in general protected by warning systems.
 

Mistakes that lead to uncommanded brake applications will soon lead to a driver being removed from driving duties. They are an indicator that the driver concerned isn’t actually capable of driving a train to the required standard which I thought is what we were discussing.

 

 

I suppose that if we are looking for a modern instance of the lack of train protection in the UK causing problems, not that there was any form of accident or injury, we could look at the antics West Coast Railways got up to with disabling the automatic train protection system.

[Captain Pegg]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I suppose that if we are looking for a modern instance of the lack of train protection in the UK causing problems, not that there was any form of accident or injury, we could look at the antics West Coast Railways got up to with disabling the automatic train protection system.

If you’re referring to Wootton Bassett what was notable about that incident was that the driver’s inappropriate response to failing to clear the Automatic Warning System (AWS) horn relating to a speed restriction lead to them both missing an adverse signal indication and failing to trigger the Train Protection & Warning System (TPWS) that should have prevented the train from passing a red signal.

 

What it shows is that all safeguards have their limitations and that driver behaviour is the primary factor in maintaining safety. I don’t doubt that the driver was highly competent in the mechanics of operating the train’s controls, but they were totally lacking in other key skills required to do the job.

[Tony Brooks]

56 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

If you’re referring to Wootton Bassett what was notable about that incident was that the driver’s inappropriate response to failing to clear the Automatic Warning System (AWS) horn relating to a speed restriction lead to them both missing an adverse signal indication and failing to trigger the Train Protection & Warning System (TPWS) that should have prevented the train from passing a red signal.

 

What it shows is that all safeguards have their limitations and that driver behaviour is the primary factor in maintaining safety. I don’t doubt that the driver was highly competent in the mechanics of operating the train’s controls, but they were totally lacking in other key skills required to do the job.

 

and that is why Tracy's statement was only partially correct, but by the same token so was yours saying the brakes were not automatic. Both statements are correct in certain circumstances, especially to a non-railway person.

Edited February 27 by Tony Brooks

[JungleJames]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that both you and JJ are acknowledging that train brakes can be and are at times applied automatically. If you are, then you can't claim that they are not automatic, as Tracy claimed. If, for whatever reason, the driver fails to make the correct response, the brakes do come on with no intervention from the driver. Basically in everyday use you are both correct, they are not automatic, but in a dangerous situation they do come on automatically. We saw at Croydon what happens when such systems are not in use.

I'm not sure who it was, but someone seemed to make out that having these so called auto brakes, made the job easy.

Incorrect, because if you were trying to make your job easy by utilising them, you wouldn't get anywhere near completing your training. 

 

As for Croydon. Depends if any sharp bends have TPWS beforehand. If for example, Morpeth speed limit does not have TPWS, then the same thing could happen.

Maybe Capt Pegg will know if there are TPWS grids before the Morpeth curve.

37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

and that is why Tracy's statement was only partially correct, but by the same token so was yours saying the brakes were not automatic. Both statements are correct in certain circumstances, especially to a non-railway person.

I still stand by the comment that ATP is the closest to automatic brakes. But I see your point. 

 

Of course, Thameslink I believe may be fully automatic in the core. But you can't claim you can drive just because you can sit in the drivers seat through the central core. 

 

Likewise as pointed out numerous times. The original comment itself is way off, because you would not be deemed competent if you had to rely on AWS, driver vigilance, or TPWS

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, JungleJames said:

I'm not sure who it was, but someone seemed to make out that having these so called auto brakes, made the job easy.

Incorrect, because if you were trying to make your job easy by utilising them, you wouldn't get anywhere near completing your training. 

 

As for Croydon. Depends if any sharp bends have TPWS beforehand. If for example, Morpeth speed limit does not have TPWS, then the same thing could happen.

Maybe Capt Pegg will know if there are TPWS grids before the Morpeth curve.

I still stand by the comment that ATP is the closest to automatic brakes. But I see your point. 

 

Of course, Thameslink I believe may be fully automatic in the core. But you can't claim you can drive just because you can sit in the drivers seat through the central core. 

 

Likewise as pointed out numerous times. The original comment itself is way off, because you would not be deemed competent if you had to rely on AWS, driver vigilance, or TPWS

 

Morpeth - which is a curve with a 50mph speed restriction with a maximum permissible approach speed of 110mph - does have Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS). TPWS is a tertiary system, the driver being the primary system and Automatic Warning System (AWS) the secondary.

 

On the approach to any speed restriction with a reduction of 30mph or more an advance warning board must be provided. This is an inverted triangular lineside sign displaying the speed ahead in black numerals on a white background with an orange border. The advance warning board is situated ahead of the commencement of the actual restriction at a distance that enables all trains to reduce speed suffciently.  180m in advance of this board will be an AWS magnet situated in the four foot space (i.e. between the rails so the train passes over it) that triggers both visual and audible warnings in the driving cab. The driver has 2.7 seconds to cancel those warnings by depressing a button on the control desk otherwise an uncommanded emergency brake application will be made. (Should this happen the train will also be de-configured in some way and possibly lose all brake pipe pressure meaning it will need to be re-configured before proceeding. It requires reporting to the signaller in all circumstances. It's more an immoboliser than an automatic brake).

 

Once cancelled the AWS plays no more part and what happens next is entirely at the drivers command. However should the driver fail to slow the train sufficently by the time it reaches the TPWS overspeed sensors that are situated between the advance warning board and the commencement of the restriction and it is travelling faster than a pre-programmed speed the emergency brake will again intervene. Neither of these systems offers full protection for a variety of reasons it's probably not worth going into but it's principally because they are retro-fitted to a pre-existing railway rather than designed into a fully integrated system from scratch and are also provided on a cost vs benefit basis.

 

It's entirely possible to drive a train through these warning systems and arrive at the curve in an overspeed condition. Only the European Train Control System (ETCS) provides direct full speed and over-run supervision; although tilting trains have a form of continuous speed supervision because of the increased overturning risk.

 

Automatic Train Protection (ATP) only exists in isolation in two locations and is a more fully effective system than TPWS but obsolete. It offers protection against rear-end collision or level crossing incursion that is not provided by TPWS.

  

 

Edited February 27 by Captain Pegg

[Mike Todd]

15 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

No longer used, they are now S P A R : signal passed at red.

 

He still has to release the brakes and apply power to get the train moving.
And on many lines the driver has no control over the doors; that is still done by guards.

To avoid confusion with SPAD = special political adviser??? One is useful the other is not!

[system 4-50]

A train driver has to do more than drive the train.  He has responsibility for millions of £s worth of equipment and for the management of upto 1000?? people, some of which will have heart attacks, be drunk, be off their heads, and deal with them when the automatic systems fail.  Try driving a (automatic) tube train late evening during the Notting Hill carnival.  And then there's the shift system with the 05:30 am starts.

But that said, I think a part of everybody's salary should be proportional to the successful consistent delivery of their jobs so that strikes cost employes more and can't be considered as just unpaid extra holiday on convenient days.

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

and that is why Tracy's statement was only partially correct, but by the same token so was yours saying the brakes were not automatic. Both statements are correct in certain circumstances, especially to a non-railway person.

Runaway train travelled 43 miles without a driver before finally being stopped (msn.com)

[JungleJames]

4 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Morpeth - which is a curve with a 50mph speed restriction with a maximum permissible approach speed of 110mph - does have Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS). TPWS is a tertiary system, the driver being the primary system and Automatic Warning System (AWS) the secondary.

 

On the approach to any speed restriction with a reduction of 30mph or more an advance warning board must be provided. This is an inverted triangular lineside sign displaying the speed ahead in black numerals on a white background with an orange border. The advance warning board is situated ahead of the commencement of the actual restriction at a distance that enables all trains to reduce speed suffciently.  180m in advance of this board will be an AWS magnet situated in the four foot space (i.e. between the rails so the train passes over it) that triggers both visual and audible warnings in the driving cab. The driver has 2.7 seconds to cancel those warnings by depressing a button on the control desk otherwise an uncommanded emergency brake application will be made. (Should this happen the train will also be de-configured in some way and possibly lose all brake pipe pressure meaning it will need to be re-configured before proceeding. It requires reporting to the signaller in all circumstances. It's more an immoboliser than an automatic brake).

 

Once cancelled the AWS plays no more part and what happens next is entirely at the drivers command. However should the driver fail to slow the train sufficently by the time it reaches the TPWS overspeed sensors that are situated between the advance warning board and the commencement of the restriction and it is travelling faster than a pre-programmed speed the emergency brake will again intervene. Neither of these systems offers full protection for a variety of reasons it's probably not worth going into but it's principally because they are retro-fitted to a pre-existing railway rather than designed into a fully integrated system from scratch and are also provided on a cost vs benefit basis.

 

It's entirely possible to drive a train through these warning systems and arrive at the curve in an overspeed condition. Only the European Train Control System (ETCS) provides direct full speed and over-run supervision; although tilting trains have a form of continuous speed supervision because of the increased overturning risk.

 

Automatic Train Protection (ATP) only exists in isolation in two locations and is a more fully effective system than TPWS but obsolete. It offers protection against rear-end collision or level crossing incursion that is not provided by TPWS.

  

 

Nice one good sir.

You went into a lot more detail than I'd be able to.

I'd actually forgotten about the AWS magnets prior to speed restrictions as well.

 

One thing to perhaps mention for anyone still thinking the job is easy. The route knowledge of the driver means all we mention makes no difference to the driver. He could be approaching in thick thick fog, seeing nothing. But he or she knows where every single speed restriction is.

 

Remember, back in the day, trains didnt have headlights!!

[Graham Davis]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Runaway train travelled 43 miles without a driver before finally being stopped (msn.com)

The safety standards on the Indian Railways are somewhat more relaxed than those here.

 

1 hour ago, JungleJames said:

One thing to perhaps mention for anyone still thinking the job is easy. The route knowledge of the driver means all we mention makes no difference to the driver. He could be approaching in thick thick fog, seeing nothing. But he or she knows where every single speed restriction is.

 

Remember, back in the day, trains didnt have headlights!!

I wonder how many here could do the route knowledge on what is a fairly basic single track route like the Cambrian west of Shrewsbury, and know the position of every level crossing, every User Worked Crossing, what over bridge they've just passed under, what river bridge they've crossed, where the braking points are for each station and passing loop, all whilst travelling at up to 80mph in the dark?

And whilst units might have headlights they are not that effective in picking stuff out in the distance, especially at that speed. I know several drivers who would prefer to do without them, especially in foggy conditions.

[Ian Mac]

Euston HS2 build has been delayed due to "Bankrupt Britain" The northern leg had go, due to the same problem. It will be interesting to see what else goes in the near future, so they can mortgage the counties future, yet further, to make sure that the Tories do not become the third biggest party in parliament.

[Graham Davis]

Don't know if this can be read by non-members, but I think it shows things very accurately::
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/returning-to-work-after-a-fatality.263414/

[LadyG]

We don't hear much about Northern Powerhouse and Levelling Up these days, lol.

PS, I don't know who decided to broadcast a few millions to random authorities  along the forner H2S route. I can't believe anyone thinks thats a good idea!

A few random transport links [trains or buses, trams, or ring roads] wont make any difference to transport times, congestion, trade, and the Northern Economy. 

Edited February 27 by LadyG

[cuthound]

13 hours ago, LadyG said:

We don't hear much about Northern Powerhouse and Levelling Up these days, lol.

PS, I don't know who decided to broadcast a few millions to random authorities  along the forner H2S route. I can't believe anyone thinks thats a good idea!

A few random transport links [trains or buses, trams, or ring roads] wont make any difference to transport times, congestion, trade, and the Northern Economy. 

 

A couple of days ago the government announced plans to spend the "savings" from cancelling the northern part of HS2 on upgrading transport in the North and Midlands.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/local-leaders-to-receive-47-billion-to-transform-transport-across-the-north-and-midlands#:~:text=Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and,%2C towns%2C and rural areas.

[JungleJames]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

A couple of days ago the government announced plans to spend the "savings" from cancelling the northern part of HS2 on upgrading transport in the North and Midlands.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/local-leaders-to-receive-47-billion-to-transform-transport-across-the-north-and-midlands#:~:text=Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and,%2C towns%2C and rural areas.

Rishi has been splashing the savings since the day he scrapped it. Only problem, the plans he comes up with are pie in the sky, and last days before quietly being dropped.

Nobody will see any benefit. Anyway, we don't have the money as it hasn't been borrowed yet. It would have been borrowed when we needed it for HS2

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

A couple of days ago the government announced plans to spend the "savings" from cancelling the northern part of HS2 on upgrading transport in the North and Midlands.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/local-leaders-to-receive-47-billion-to-transform-transport-across-the-north-and-midlands#:~:text=Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and,%2C towns%2C and rural areas.

 

Seems to be a decimal point error going on. Your link says £47bn but the article itself has accidentally trimmed 90% off it and says £4.7bn. 

 

I wonder where the missing £42.3bn went. What's that in that big bulging brown envelope in your other hand, Mark Harper? 

 

 

 

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

Rishi has been splashing the savings since the day he scrapped it. Only problem, the plans he comes up with are pie in the sky, and last days before quietly being dropped.

Nobody will see any benefit. Anyway, we don't have the money as it hasn't been borrowed yet. It would have been borrowed when we needed it for HS2

 

Indeed, that is why I put "savings" in quotation marks in my post above.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Seems to be a decimal point error going on. Your link says £47bn but the article itself has accidentally trimmed 90% off it and says £4.7bn. 

 

I wonder where the missing £42.3bn went. What's that in that big bulging brown envelope in your other hand, Mark Harper? 

 

 

 

 

What do expect. It will have been produced by The Treasury and they have never been good with numbers...  

 

Edited February 28 by cuthound
To insert spaces between merged posts