A Generator on a boat

[nairb123]

I have a generator which I run on the bank or on the back of the boat when necessary. 

Is it legal to store the generator on the boat when the boat is not being used?.  Apparently, it's an automatic fail if one is found on the boat during a BSS test.  I dont know if it is ok to store the generator in the cratch during the test, but I take it off the boat during the test anyway.

 

Ta

Nairb

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, nairb123 said:

Is it legal to store the generator on the boat when the boat is not being used?

 

Yes. 

 

No-one is in prison (or even been fined) AFAIK for storing a genny on a boat. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, nairb123 said:

Apparently, it's an automatic fail if one is found on the boat during a BSS test.

 

 

This is news to me! Can anyone cite a reference for this? I've had loads of BSS passes with a genny somewhere or other in the boat. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, nairb123 said:

I have a generator which I run on the bank or on the back of the boat when necessary. 

Is it legal to store the generator on the boat when the boat is not being used?.  Apparently, it's an automatic fail if one is found on the boat during a BSS test.  I dont know if it is ok to store the generator in the cratch during the test, but I take it off the boat during the test anyway.

 

Ta

Nairb

 

That is not strictly true. If it is contained in a properly vented gas tight locker like the gas tank, it should pass.

 

It is the petrol the generator contains that is the problem. If any petrol fumes can leak into the boat, they just build up in the bilge until you get a very large bang and may die.

 

If it is a self draining front cockpit with a high upstand at the front door it will be safer there than inside the boat, but it is still far from best

practice.

 

does not apply to a diesel generator except its fuel system has to meet the BSS.

Edited January 1 by Tony Brooks

[36national]

is it a petrol genny ?

[nairb123]

Thanks for the replies.  Its a petrol gen.  Its stored with a cover in the engine room when I am not there.  And because its not a gas tight environment that is the issue and why the bss examiner will fail the exam I guess.  The gen is an eu20i which is not the lightest to carry up the path.

So the option is to put it in the car every time I leave and bring it back each time. 

 

The boat does have a gas locker in the front with drain holes etc.  But I was told that petrol cans should not be carried in the locker.  Which is where I used to store them when travelling about.  But these can easily be stored off the boat at other times.

What will we be using to charge the batteries when diesel engine are banned on boats.....

[MtB]

1 minute ago, nairb123 said:

Thanks for the replies.  Its a petrol gen.  Its stored with a cover in the engine room when I am not there.  And because its not a gas tight environment that is the issue and why the bss examiner will fail the exam I guess.  The gen is an eu20i which is not the lightest to carry up the path.

So the option is to put it in the car every time I leave and bring it back each time. 

 

The boat does have a gas locker in the front with drain holes etc.  But I was told that petrol cans should not be carried in the locker.  Which is where I used to store them when travelling about.  But these can easily be stored off the boat at other times.

What will we be using to charge the batteries when diesel engine are banned on boats.....

 

The simplest solution is to run the genny out of petrol when you use it, so it contains none when you store it - this is what most boaters do I always imagine. 

 

Storing the petrol can is easier. Petrol vapour behaves pretty much the same as LPG so a (plastic) can of petrol is best stored in the gas locker. Or better, in your car. A can of petrol is much easier to lug to the boat than an EU20i! 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, nairb123 said:

But I was told that petrol cans should not be carried in the locker.

 

I think the BSS does not want anything but gas bottles stored in the locker i case they jump about and damage the regulator, valves or pipes. I think it would be fine if you secured the generator in some way, mine was secured by chain and padlock, but check direct with the BSS office, do go by hearsay.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, nairb123 said:

What will we be using to charge the batteries when diesel engine are banned on boats.....

 

Solar.

 

If and when diesel engines are banned on boats, boating will have been effectively limited to being a summer activity.

 

Frankly I can't see that happening in my lifetime. Or yours quite probably, whatever age you are.

 

 

[nairb123]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Solar.

 

Frankly I can't see that happening in my lifetime. Or yours quite probably, whatever age you are.

 

 

Yup, I think you are right.  I have been on the system some 30(ish) years and know I am well into the autumn years of being on the canal.  I now hope for 2 or 3 years of splashing about.  Any more is a bonus....

But I still wonder if there will be any boating left in 20/30 years time.

[Bod]

Our boat has passed a B.S,S in the last 3 years, with a generator on board.

The examiner was a bit non plussed, and was going to fail, till it was pointed out that it was an  lpg fuelled machine, and the disconnected cylinder was in the gas locker.

As there was no fuel in the tank, there was no problem, had the generator even smelt of petrol, then it would have failed.

 

Bod.

[David Mack]

7 hours ago, nairb123 said:

The boat does have a gas locker in the front with drain holes etc.  But I was told that petrol cans should not be carried in the locker.

You can't have anything loose in a gas locker which could affect the cylinders, regulator, hoses or pipework. But if there is room in the locker and the generator/petrol cans are properly secured when in there I don't see why that shouldn't be acceptable to the BSS.

Or you could have a separate 'gas locker' specifically for the generator / petrol cans.

[Slim]

On 01/01/2024 at 17:26, Tony Brooks said:

does not apply to a diesel generator except its fuel system has to meet the BSS.

I had a cocooned diesel generator within a cockpit locker for 24 of the 28 years I owned Vital Spark. (2 virtually identical Pugaros' ). Throughout that time the fuel system within the cocoon was as factory fitted. Not one examiner ever even looked inside the cocoon.   

[blackrose]

11 hours ago, nairb123 said:

Thanks for the replies.  Its a petrol gen.  Its stored with a cover in the engine room when I am not there.  

 

Would you store a container of petrol in your engine room? That's a rhetorical question of course because that's exactly what you're doing. 

 

I assume you're not storing the generator down there when you're moving the boat? 

 

Either way the point is, if the container of petrol or generator were to leak, or even leak fumes, you then have a potentially dangerous situation with petrol fumes and ignition sources in the same space.

 

On 01/01/2024 at 22:54, MtB said:

This is news to me! Can anyone cite a reference for this? I've had loads of BSS passes with a genny somewhere or other in the boat. 

 

From the BSS Essential Guide 2nd Edition, Chapter 5.

 

It's been a while since I've looked at such documents so I'm not sure if the 2nd edition has been superseded, but if so I'm sure whatever has taken its place will have similar requirements. I have to say I'm quite surprised that a number of people with many years of boat ownership and experience haven't at least skimmed through the Essential Guide and seem unaware of basic safety requirements.

 

5.2.2/R REQUIREMENT

Are all portable petrol tanks stored, when not in use, to ensure that any leaking fuel or escaping vapour will not enter the interior of the vessel?

Check the storage location of portable petrol tanks not connected to the engine.

Portable petrol tanks, which are not connected to the engine, must be stored in the open where any leaked petrol would flow overboard unimpeded, or in suitable locker.

Any locker used to store spare petrol must be:

■ drained to the outside from the bottom; and,

■ secure and constructed of a material of the required thickness, in good condition; and,

■ free from objects that could block the drain, damage the petrol container or cause petrol vapour to ignite; and,

■ fuel-tight to an equal or greater height that the top of the cap for the petrol container; and,

■ self-draining and the drain hole must have a minimum internal diameter of 12mm (1/2 in) and must not be blocked; and,

■ the locker must not open into any engine, battery or electrical equipment space; and,

■ the drain line material including connections must be complete and in good condition.

Note – these are identical storage arrangements for LPG cylinders the detail of which is to be found in Chapter 7, sections 7.1–7.5.

 

https://www.marinesurveys.net/boatsafety.htm

Edited January 3 by blackrose

[blackrose]

11 hours ago, MtB said:

The simplest solution is to run the genny out of petrol when you use it, so it contains none when you store it - this is what most boaters do I always imagine. 

 

Storing the petrol can is easier. Petrol vapour behaves pretty much the same as LPG so a (plastic) can of petrol is best stored in the gas locker. Or better, in your car. A can of petrol is much easier to lug to the boat than an EU20i! 

 

 

 

These may be practical solutions of a sort but the OP was asking about compliance to the BSS and both of your suggestions are potentially BSS fails.

 

I doubt most boaters run their generators out of petrol prior to storage as timing that right might be difficult, but even if they do, the generator is still full of volatile petrol fumes and can anyone guarantee there's no liquid petrol left in any pipework, carb, tank, etc. It's impossible to know. Also storage of plastic petrol cans in the gas locker while sensible if you have to store it and there's no dedicated locker, is also a potential BSS fail depending on how strict your examiner is.

Edited January 3 by blackrose

[36national]

Blackrose has covered it but don't confuse BSS fail and legal. 

As  I interpret it, it is not a BSS fail to keep a  petrol can in the gas locker provided that it can't rattle around causing sparks or mechanical damage  and it can't block the drain hole(s). The long and short of it is in Sections 7 to 7.5 from the link below.

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/299273/bss-examination-checking-procedures-interim-public-version.pdf

 

Ask your BSS examiner, mine isn't a monster. 

 

These regulations also apply to the genny itself as it too has a petrol tank.

It's a fair bet that that won't fit in your gas locker.

This depends on where you leave the boat and your attitude towards leaving high value, portable items on public display but many boaters get a motorbike lock and chain a genny to the stern. 

5 minutes ago, 36national said:

Blackrose has covered it but don't confuse BSS fail and legal. 

As  I interpret it, it is not a BSS fail to keep a  petrol can in the gas locker provided that it can't rattle around causing sparks or mechanical damage  and it can't block the drain hole(s). The long and short of it is in Sections 7 to 7.5 from the link below.

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/299273/bss-examination-checking-procedures-interim-public-version.pdf

 

Ask your BSS examiner, mine isn't a monster. 

 

These regulations also apply to the genny itself as it too has a petrol tank.

It's a fair bet that that won't fit in your gas locker.

This depends on where you leave the boat and your attitude towards leaving high value, portable items on public display but many boaters get a motorbike lock and chain a genny to the stern. 

 

 "As  I interpret it, it is not a BSS fail to keep a  petrol can in the gas locker provided that it can't rattle around causing sparks or mechanical damage  and it can't block the drain hole(s)."

 

Actually that may be wrong as the drain holes have to be a specified size dependant upon the mass of LPG stored in the locker. I can't find a spec for combined LPG and petrol. Your BSS examiner would have to take a view on it. If you're concerned keep it elsewhere or ask.

[Stroudwater1]

Out of interest how many canal boats have blown up due to petrol before the BSS, or afterwards?Listening to noise on the towpath it seems there’s a large number of petrol generators around and so petrol stored in boats. Some occupants are smokers especially wacky baccy. Is it a risk more theoretical than real? 
 

We seem to hear of more succumbing to carbon monoxide by some way. 

[36national]

Also the note to section 5.4.2 reads

 

"NOTE – outboard or portable combustion engines not stored at the time of the examination, for example, generators or outboards running or connected, must be recorded as compliant."

 

you could argue that your genny with its cover on in the cratch where no sane person would run it, is "stored" and infer that therefore it does not need to be compliant.

 

A pleasant morning reading BSS regulations, anyone know a good book? Or have a life ?

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, 36national said:

Also the note to section 5.4.2 reads

 

"NOTE – outboard or portable combustion engines not stored at the time of the examination, for example, generators or outboards running or connected, must be recorded as compliant."

 

you could argue that your genny with its cover on in the cratch where no sane person would run it, is "stored" and infer that therefore it does not need to be compliant.

 

A pleasant morning reading BSS regulations, anyone know a good book? Or have a life ?

 

I think you misunderstood your quote.  If it is not running then there is no requirement to record as compliant, so my interpretation is that they must conform with the BSS for the type of fuel they use.

[blackrose]

On 03/01/2024 at 15:08, Stroudwater1 said:

Out of interest how many canal boats have blown up due to petrol before the BSS, or afterwards?Listening to noise on the towpath it seems there’s a large number of petrol generators around and so petrol stored in boats. Some occupants are smokers especially wacky baccy. Is it a risk more theoretical than real? 
 

We seem to hear of more succumbing to carbon monoxide by some way. 

 

Not specifically canal boats and I don't have any data but I think there have been a number of fires and explosions on boats in different countries related to filling, use and storage of petrol. Given that petrol fumes are highly explosive and behave in a similar way to LPG I'm surprised to hear any experienced boater suggest that the risk might be "theoretical".

 

The BSS has to have some rules and guidance around this issue. Surely we can all see the sense in that?

 

https://www.boatsnews.com/story/34532/filling-the-fuel-tank-of-his-boat-a-far-from-trivial-operation

 

That's just one example. If you Google petrol explosion boat fire you'll find lots more.

 

Edited January 10 by blackrose

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

That's just one example. If you Google petrol explosion boat fire you'll find lots more.

 

 

We had one locally a couple of years ago. It was on the Fossdyke canal (the oldest canal in the UK, built by the Romans) at Burton Waters marina.

 

Boat filled up with petrol on the fuel pontoon, switched on ignition and "BOOOOOOM".

He hadn't used the engine room bilge-blowers to clear the fumes before turning the key.

 

Wiped out a nearby boat and the fuel pontoon.

 

 

 

It is believed the fire started accidentally after a visiting boat – a Freedom 22 – had just refuelled at the marina’s petrol pump. It is thought a carburettor of the motor yacht 'backfired' and ignited fuel vapour.

The flames spread from the boat to the nearby Stella Maris. The two fuel pumps, jetty and two trees were also on fire, and thick black smoke could be seen above the marina.

The fuel pumps are expected to be back in operation within the next two weeks.

The managing director of Burton Waters Boat Sales, Adam Cox, explained what happened.

“What happened was that a visiting boat came and was fuelled up and then the man came to pay. It was nearly 20 minutes later that he started the boat up and at that point he saw there was a fire on board so he quickly gets off,” he said.

“Our fire safety team tried to deal with the fire at first but it was just too fierce but the firefighters were here really quickly. Thankfully, no-one was hurt,” added Cox.

 

Edited January 10 by Alan de Enfield

[Stroudwater1]

2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Not specifically canal boats and I don't have any data but I think there have been a number of fires and explosions on boats in different countries related to filling, use and storage of petrol. Given that petrol fumes are highly explosive and behave in a similar way to LPG I'm surprised to hear any experienced boater suggest that the risk might be "theoretical".

 

The BSS has to have some rules and guidance around this issue. Surely we can all see the sense in that?

 

https://www.boatsnews.com/story/34532/filling-the-fuel-tank-of-his-boat-a-far-from-trivial-operation

 

That's just one example. If you Google petrol explosion boat fire you'll find lots more.

 

I suspect you will find a number of experienced boaters who have used petrol powered boat engines for many years. Quite a few whose owners smoked too. Some even had open gas fires, and gas fired fridges at the same time. There were petrol powered boats used for hire too right up to the early 80s at least.  
 

Usage was not that uncommon prior to BSS. Look at the numbers of GRP boats on any 1980s or earlier canal pictures. Most had petrol powered outboards. Storage inside boats was not prohibited though Petrol carriers/storage cans were more robust then. 

 

There’s still a few marinas on rivers selling petrol waterside.  You have of course to be careful, as with carbon monoxide or gas. 

I see  Alan has managed to find a petrol horror story. Ever reliable. Happily it appears that the boater survived the booom. Is that really laughter I heard as the fire raged though? How upsetting. The fuel pontoon was up and running a fortnight after the explosion thankfully and petrol is still for sale there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I see  Alan has managed to find a petrol horror story. Ever reliable.

 

Why would I not 'find' an example, you asked for examples :

 

Out of interest how many canal boats have blown up due to petrol before the BSS, or afterwards?

 

It happened just a few miles from me, was on the local TV news, local press, and widely discussed on boating forums, it didn't take much 'finding'.

 

Over the years I have had (probably) a dozen petrol powered boats and have only had one fire (but that was an engine fire and not due specifically to petrol) Petrol needs very careful handling and the boat needs to have bilge blowers fitted and switched on for 10 minutes prior to trying to start the engine.

Refueling a generator on deck can allow the fumes to sink into the bilges and, on a standard narrowboat, it is unlikely to have bilge-blowers fitted. One day it will go boom.

 

Why do you think that gas fridges are banned on petrol engined boats ?

Edited January 10 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why do you think that gas fridges are banned on petrol engined boats ?

 

I don't think that is absolutely true, but the requirements are such that they are not usually practical.

[MtB]

45 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why would I not 'find' an example, you asked for examples :

 

Out of interest how many canal boats have blown up due to petrol before the BSS, or afterwards?

 

The request was for statistics, not for one single data point. 

 

A single data point tell us nothing about trends. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't think that is absolutely true, but the requirements are such that they are not usually practical.

 

Effectively they are banned. They can only be used if they are one of the 70 conversions done by wilderness boats, or, 'room sealed'

 

The BSS :

"Where the vessel has a petrol propulsion engine, is any LPG refrigerator of a proprietary room-sealed type, or a Wilderness Boats conversion of an Electrolux RM 212"

Applicability – if the suitability of the fridge cannot be verified from visual assessment and the owner has no declaration from an equipment manufacturer or supplier, mark your checklist ‘not verified’. In such cases, the fridge must be considered as non-compliant until such time as its suitability has been verified.

At Check 8.2.2 Examiners must also see documentary evidence from Wilderness Boats, or a Gas Safe registered engineer that the fridge has been serviced within the 12 months prior to the date the Examination. The documentary evidence from Wilderness Boats must be on its headed paper, and any documentary evidence from a Gas Safe registered engineer will need to show the name and/or, the name of the company, and a Gas Safe registration number

 

The only proprietary room sealed fridges I can find referenced (and the BSS list) are the Electrolux RB180, RB182, RM4213 LSC and RM6401 LSC models. which seem to date to the early 2000's.

I cannot find any for sale, although Electrolux seem to have some spares support for them.