"I hate these things", he said.

[magnetman]

Its not walkerboats.com

 

Its these people 

 

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05859661

 

Walker Boats Ltd. 

 

For Sale 

 

http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/boat_details.php?boat_id=144

 

Dream Catcher. 

 

Another Yorkshire Boat builder company dissolved. 

Its a nice enough Boat but teak laid decks on a steel cabin top? Hmm that wants to be well done !

[Guest]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Its not walkerboats.com

 

Its these people 

 

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05859661

 

Walker Boats Ltd. 

 

For Sale 

 

http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/boat_details.php?boat_id=144

 

Dream Catcher. 

 

Another Yorkshire Boat builder company dissolved. 

Its a nice enough Boat but teak laid decks on a steel cabin top? Hmm that wants to be well done !

 

Stunning boat. And definitely moored at Lemonroyd in those pics.

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

Is your evidence of increasing levels of annoyance caused by widebeams gained from personal experience or from the comments of folk on CWDF or other social media?

Personal experience, and talking to other boaters, and CWDF. Social media also but this is rather less reliable, as any fule kno... 😉

 

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

 

Badly moored/steered narrowboats are equally as much a PITA for other boaters.

 

Why are you not complaining about those? There are plenty of them.

 

Which is exactly what I said, if only you read it instead of taking offence -- there are a lot more narrowboats, and therefore a lot more selfish narrowboaters.

 

However when a boat causes an obstruction, it's a bigger obstruction (on most canals) if it's a wideboat.

 

Idiots of all kinds are the problem, but the bigger the boat the bigger the problem the idiot causes... 😉

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[Captain Pegg]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Personal experience, and talking to other boaters, and CWDF. Social media also but this is rather less reliable, as any fule kno... 😉

 

When boating where though?

 

I’m on the GU between Berkhamsted and Birmingham every month, often more frequently, and I haven’t noticed any significant changes in the numbers of wide beams of the move. In a routine day I’d expect to encounter 0 or 1, with 0 being more likely than 1.

 

I don’t doubt some people do get inconvenienced by them. I’ve had minor delays further south where they are more prevalent; a certain amount of which is because those on the move often seem under-crewed.

 

It made me wonder if your experience was skewed by towpath observations around London.

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

When boating where though?

 

I’m on the GU between Berkhamsted and Birmingham every month, often more frequently, and I haven’t noticed any significant changes in the numbers of wide beams of the move. In a routine day I’d expect to encounter 0 or 1, with 0 being more likely than 1.

 

I don’t doubt some people do get inconvenienced by them. I’ve had minor delays further south where they are more prevalent; a certain amount of which is because those on the move often seem under-crewed.

 

It made me wonder if your experience was skewed by towpath observations around London.

 

Very probably, also the boaters I speak to (who see the same problem) tend to be round here. Though the canals here are wide, of course... 😉

 

OTOH when I've been travelling round the system -- mostly Oop North in the last few years -- I've encountered widebeams moored (and travelling...) so as to make passage difficult on several occasions. Yes narrowboats also moor in stupid places (e.g. near bridges and on bends, or at services) but they cause much less of an obstruction when they do. Sorry but that's just fact, not any kind of prejudice... 😉

 

Widebeams on wide canals or other places big enough for them, absolutely no problem, live and let live. But given the size of the boat, more thought is needed when mooring (and care when travelling) than with a narrowboat. And the simple fact is that newbie wideboaters in particular don't seem very good at doing this... 😞

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[Captain Pegg]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Very probably, also the boaters I speak to (who see the same problem) tend to be round here.

 

OTOH when I've been travelling round the system -- mostly Oop North in the last few years -- I've encountered widebeams moored (and travelling...) so as to make passage difficult on numerous occasions. Yes narrowboats also moor in stupid places (near bridges and on bends) but they cause much less of an obstruction when they do. Sorry but that's just fact, not any kind of prejudice... 😉

 

Widebeams on wide canals or other places big enough for them, absolutely no problem, live and let live.

 

So it’s just boats that inconvenience you. No need to distinguish the type. And presumably if the boat is within the permitted dimensions all is good.

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

So it’s just boats that inconvenience you. No need to distinguish the type. And presumably if the boat is within the permitted dimensions all is good.

<sigh> are you seriously suggesting that a 14' widebeam moored stupidly is no more of an obstruction than a 7' narrowboat moored stupidly?

 

Regardless of permitted dimensions, [stupid+bigger] is worse than [stupid+smaller]. For example, if [stupid]=[moored all day on a water point] then you can usually breast up to a narrowboat, but not usually to a wideboat. Yes this has happened to me.

 

If you're not stupid, no problem either way... 🙂

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[Bee]

4 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

 

 

One of the factors that is often forgotten when considering whether or not a particular wide design is 'suitable' for a given canal is the above-water profile, not just the waterline beam. It also seems to me that most of the modern wide beams are even more boxy than NBs which leads to issues (as and when they actually move) with the profile. The difficulty is that dimensions other than length and beam are harder to define in ways that could be enforced.

I agree, if you look at the cross section of a most accomodation bridges underwater and above water the last thing you need is a fat narrowboat, In the pic of `Angel Hardy` above it is a lovely boat and a much better cross section for actual boating although probably too big to to use on many canals but if it was scaled down the result could be a better cruising prospect than a fat narrowboat, I guess many owners would agree if they had any say in the matter but these things are produced to give the maximum possible interior room with no allowance for  appearance and precious little thought for handling. I blame the builders and the `designers`

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, Bee said:

I agree, if you look at the cross section of a most accomodation bridges underwater and above water the last thing you need is a fat narrowboat, In the pic of `Angel Hardy` above it is a lovely boat and a much better cross section for actual boating although probably too big to to use on many canals but if it was scaled down the result could be a better cruising prospect than a fat narrowboat, I guess many owners would agree if they had any say in the matter but these things are produced to give the maximum possible interior room with no allowance for  appearance and precious little thought for handling. I blame the builders and the `designers`

But builders and "designers" only provide what customers want, so if most wideboat customers want them mainly for living on while moored not cruising, have internal space as the biggest priority, outside looks next, and handling and cruising as the lowest priority -- which seems to be the case going by what people are buying and fitting out -- then that's what the builders will supply, with squared-off cabins/hulls with no tumblehome, perfect for taking chunks out of bridges.

 

Maybe on CWDF there are more wideboat owners who place more value on handling and looks, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case for most new wideboats going by what's out there and how they're used... 😞

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

But builders and "designers" only provide what customers want, so if most wideboat customers want them mainly for living on while moored not cruising, have internal space as the biggest priority, outside looks next, and handling and cruising as the lowest priority -- which seems to be the case going by what people are buying and fitting out -- then that's what the builders will supply, with squared-off cabins/hulls with no tumblehome, perfect for taking chunks out of bridges.

 

Maybe on CWDF there are more wideboat owners who place more value on handling and looks, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case for most new wideboats going by what's out there and how they're used... 😞

But if you ask half of boat owners what a swim is they will say its something you do in the pool. Lots of people buying boats today don't know the first thing about them. They go to boat shows and see something they think is nice with all the plush furnishings etc.

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

<sigh> are you seriously suggesting that a 14' widebeam moored stupidly is no more of an obstruction than a 7' narrowboat moored stupidly?

 

Regardless of permitted dimensions, [stupid+bigger] is worse than [stupid+smaller]. For example, if [stupid]=[moored all day on a water point] then you can usually breast up to a narrowboat, but not usually to a wideboat. Yes this has happened to me.

 

If you're not stupid, no problem either way... 🙂

Why are you so rude?

[MtB]

15 hours ago, IanD said:

Maybe on CWDF there are more wideboat owners who place more value on handling and looks, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case for most new wideboats going by what's out there and how they're used... 😞

 

A quick look on the Collingwood website led me to being somewhat shocked to see no photos at all of the outside of widebeams. ALL the photos are of the insides, focussing on what great homes they are.

 

No information anywhere that I could find (but I didn't look that hard) on the shell shape, which waterways they are and aren't suitable for, how to actually navigate them and miss the bridges, or guidance on mooring.

 

They also say they are building 240 boats year, most of which I'd imagine are fatties but it doesn't actually say.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by MtB
Missing word

[Rob-M]

The worse boats moored that I regularly encounter are narrowboats that in the last couple of years have decided mooring on the bend in Little Haywood is a good location.  They are a right pita as the over hanging trees on the offside make it just about wide enough for two narrowboats to get through so with one moored up and the high probability of a hire boat or day boat coming the other way the chances of touching the moored boat is quite high.  I've commented to a few when they stick their head out to complain that they are moored in a stupid location.

[magnetman]

48 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But if you ask half of boat owners what a swim is ....

One of these ? 

 

[Naughty Cal]

19 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

A quick look on the Collingwood website led me to being somewhat shocked to see no photos all of the outside of widebeams. ALL the photos are of the insides, focussing on what great homes they are.

 

No information anywhere that I could find (but I didn't look that hard) on the shell shape, which waterways they are and aren't suitable for, how to actually navigate them and miss the bridges, or guidance on mooring.

 

They also say they are building 240 boats year, most of which I'd imagine are fatties but it doesn't actually say.

Does any boat manufacturer or broker tell potential customers of where the boat they are selling is and isn't suitable for?

 

There was one large flybridge cruiser sold by the marina we moored at, quite a few years back now, that didn't make it out of the marina in one piece.

 

They bought it and drove it straight into the footbridge crossing the flood gates. They lost their court case. The marina never said it would leave the property under its own power.

 

As a goodwill gesture they replaced the sat dome which was probably the cheapest part of the repair!

[peterboat]

7 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

This one, Angel Hardy was always my favourite widebeam boat.

 

 

One of the best replica Dutch barges we saw on our travels with really friendly owners.

 

Had a home mooring on the Trent but was often cruising the coast and rivers. We saw them all over the place.

I have seen him cruising around our area as well, it's a lovely boat, it was often in company with a smaller Dutch barge 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

Why are you so rude?

I'm not being rude, this wasn't pointed at you (or any other considerate boaters, narrow or widebeam or CCer), it was aimed at the boaters who ignore both the rules and courtesy and common sense and moor (or cruise...) where is convenient for them regardless of whether it's inconvenient for others.

 

And when the idiots do this, it's usually more inconvenient for others if they're in a widebeam because it's more of an obstruction, whether moving or stationary.

 

You're obviously not stupid or an idiot, so I'd have thought you'd agree with this fairly obvious fact... 😉

 

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

But if you ask half of boat owners what a swim is they will say its something you do in the pool. Lots of people buying boats today don't know the first thing about them. They go to boat shows and see something they think is nice with all the plush furnishings etc.

Which is exactly what I said -- the builders are supplying what most of their customers want, with the emphasis on the internal fittings and fixtures and space, and mostly ignoring the engineering and hull underneath because nobody cares... 😞

 

Hardly surprising if you look at how boats are promoted on websites and at places like Crick and in reviews, loads of stuff about kitchens and "ooh, look at that!" features, very little about the things that make a boat nice to navigate in. Those of us who actually care about things like that might despair, but most new boat customers couldn't give a sh*t... 😞

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[peterboat]

Last year coming up to Doncaster lock I had a narrowboat pushing to get past me, the water was full of junk and weeds so don't know what he expected me to do? I had noticed the lock was being turned around so in a few minutes a boat would be exiting the lock. Anyway the narrowboat eventually realized the futility of trying to get past me and slowed down seconds later gates opened, we pulled in and Jayne got off to do the lock and the narrowboat tried to get into the lock! Difficult when a ex working boat is leaving, now this is a big working boat couple of hundred tons jobbie 🤣🤣🤣🤣. Lots of hard reversing and the narrowboat is stuck in the weed and crap! We slipped into the lock Jayne asked the narrowboat steerer if they were coming in and received verbal abuse 😒 anyway we went through the lock and moored at Doncaster on the last visitor mooring 🤣. Normally breasting up is the norm and happens regularly, but he went past at speed looking at the other bank for some reason 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Captain Pegg]

36 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'm not being rude, this wasn't pointed at you (or any other considerate boaters, narrow or widebeam or CCer), it was aimed at the boaters who ignore both the rules and courtesy and common sense and moor (or cruise...) where is convenient for them regardless of whether it's inconvenient for others.

 

And when the idiots do this, it's usually more inconvenient for others if they're in a widebeam because it's more of an obstruction.

 

You're not stupid or an idiot, so I'd have thought you'd agree with this fairly obvious fact... 😉

 

Which is exactly what I said -- the builders are supplying what most of their customers want, with the emphasis on the internal fittings and fixtures and space, and mostly ignoring the engineering and hull underneath because nobody cares... 😞

 

Hardly surprising if you look at how boats are promoted on websites and at places like Crick and in reviews, loads of stuff about kitchens and "ooh, look at that!" features, very little about the things that make a boat nice to navigate in. Those of us who actually care about things like that might despair, but most new boat customers couldn't give a sh*t... 😞

I doubt you’d start a response with an audible sigh in a face to face meeting with a group in the pub.

 

The point was that a boat moored stupidly is a boat moored stupidly. Whether it’s a widebeam or not isn’t relevant to that fact.

There are lots of circumstances where a particular shape or size of boat or the attitude or size of crew can be an impediment to others.

 

In some circumstances a 70’ boat squeezed on the end of a mooring impeding a junction, a lock landing or a winding hole is more of a nuisance than a 50’ boat would be. But we don’t get excited about 70’ boats here because they conform to the collective notion of what a ‘proper boat’ might look like. Not only that the numerous pairs of 71’ 6” x 7’ 0.5” boats moored abreast on the GU are definitely OK despite the fact it’s only officially a 12’ 6” wide waterway north of Berkhamsted.

 

If we’re worried about CRT’s funding issues surely we should be welcoming boaters to the waterways rather than tutting at the shape of their cabins.

 

None of us have any claim to the waterways, and even less to be self appointed arbiters of what is right or wrong. It’s of ultimate benefit to us all to get boats onto the canal in the first place. Then comes the issue of how to manage the consequences.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[MtB]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

But if you ask half of boat owners what a swim is they will say its something you do in the pool. Lots of people buying boats today don't know the first thing about them. They go to boat shows and see something they think is nice with all the plush furnishings etc.

 

And to underline the point you make, have a look at the Collingwood site section for fatties and see if you can find anything other than stuff about the interiors and the plush furnishings.

 

https://www.collingwoodboatbuilders.co.uk/abode-range/

 

 

 

 

 

Having to drive the thing about from place to place is going to be a confounded nuisance so best not mentioned....

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Rob-M said:

The worse boats moored that I regularly encounter are narrowboats that in the last couple of years have decided mooring on the bend in Little Haywood is a good location.  They are a right pita as the over hanging trees on the offside make it just about wide enough for two narrowboats to get through so with one moored up and the high probability of a hire boat or day boat coming the other way the chances of touching the moored boat is quite high.  I've commented to a few when they stick their head out to complain that they are moored in a stupid location.

How about in the bridge holes?

[Rob-M]

17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

How about in the bridge holes?

I did pass a cruiser this year moored in the bridge hole just before Handsacre.

[TheBiscuits]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

For example, if [stupid]=[moored all day on a water point] then you can usually breast up to a narrowboat, but not usually to a wideboat.

 

Why not?  I have, and then run my hose through their pram cover to fill my boat tank.

 

I need to be feeling more agile than usual to scramble over their roof, but that's been known too!

[peterboat]

22 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Why not?  I have, and then run my hose through their pram cover to fill my boat tank.

 

I need to be feeling more agile than usual to scramble over their roof, but that's been known too!

I always find ramming them works! JohnV did it with Sabina H at goole, the other boat had been sat on the water point for a day or so and we needed water, Sabina weighs just short of 80 Tons 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 its amazing how fast they moved as she approached 

[Grassman]

15 hours ago, Rob-M said:

The worse boats moored that I regularly encounter are narrowboats that in the last couple of years have decided mooring on the bend in Little Haywood is a good location.  They are a right pita as the over hanging trees on the offside make it just about wide enough for two narrowboats to get through so with one moored up and the high probability of a hire boat or day boat coming the other way the chances of touching the moored boat is quite high.  I've commented to a few when they stick their head out to complain that they are moored in a stupid location.

 

I can never understand why there's always moored boats there when there are plenty of other equally suited places on straighter sections, and it's a PITA if you meet an oncoming boat as there's nowhere to go. Many of them flout the 14 day rule too. In November my team of IWA offside vegetation cutting volunteers significantly cut back those trees you refer to, so it's much better now. But I wasn't with them when they did that section and having seen it since I think they could have cut the trees back further. So when we pass there in February on our way back to Fradley I will make sure this is rectified.