Insurance cover for Boat or Owner?

[Vasco826]

Please forgive my ignorance on this topic, but although a reasonably experienced helmsman I have never owned a NB before, a failing which I intend to rectify early next year! 

My question is about Insurance - so is it the Boat that is insured or is it the Owner / Helmsman.  My point is, if my wife and I buy a NB and insure it, are we the only ones who are allowed to be the "skipper" or can we let friends and family use it without us being on board (without financial gain) and still be covered by the Insurance should they mess up and damage another boat or CT infrastructure for example.

I welcome any thoughts please - note, I am not looking to hire it out or anything like that, either officially or otherwise!

Many thanks

Doug

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Vasco826 said:

Please forgive my ignorance on this topic, but although a reasonably experienced helmsman I have never owned a NB before, a failing which I intend to rectify early next year! 

My question is about Insurance - so is it the Boat that is insured or is it the Owner / Helmsman.  My point is, if my wife and I buy a NB and insure it, are we the only ones who are allowed to be the "skipper" or can we let friends and family use it without us being on board (without financial gain) and still be covered by the Insurance should they mess up and damage another boat or CT infrastructure for example.

I welcome any thoughts please - note, I am not looking to hire it out or anything like that, either officially or otherwise!

Many thanks

Doug

 

Most if not all policies allow this but some may asked to be notified if someone other than the owners are using it.

 

Edit to add a caveat - ours used to stipulate the boat could be used by another 'competent' person. How they asses this is open to question. It also rather assumes the owner is competent also.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by MJG
add a bit

[kevinl]

Interesting question, I just used a specialist boat insurance brokers and assume that it covered everything, never really read the full policy.

K

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, Vasco826 said:

Please forgive my ignorance on this topic, but although a reasonably experienced helmsman I have never owned a NB before, a failing which I intend to rectify early next year! 

My question is about Insurance - so is it the Boat that is insured or is it the Owner / Helmsman.  My point is, if my wife and I buy a NB and insure it, are we the only ones who are allowed to be the "skipper" or can we let friends and family use it without us being on board (without financial gain) and still be covered by the Insurance should they mess up and damage another boat or CT infrastructure for example.

I welcome any thoughts please - note, I am not looking to hire it out or anything like that, either officially or otherwise!

Many thanks

Doug

A slight side tack, when you do go for your first insurance policy for your boat make sure you stress how much experience you have through hiring, some companies are not happy taking on owners with no experience or qualifications today. I don't have my policy with me so cant comment on their requirements loaning to family etc.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, kevinl said:

Interesting question, I just used a specialist boat insurance brokers and assume that it covered everything, never really read the full policy.

K

 

 

Some (not just boat) insurers do make it difficult to study a policy in full before buying insurance but you should always study the policy after paying and use your right to cancel if you discover it doesn't meet your needs.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by MJG

[Chewbacka]

21 minutes ago, MJG said:

 

Most if not all policies allow this but some may asked to be notified if someone other than the owners are using it.

 

Edit to add a caveat - ours used to stipulate the boat could be used by another 'competent' person. How they asses this is open to question. It also rather assumes the owner is competent also.

 

That’s easy, if there isn’t a claim they must be competent, but if there is a claim, be prepared to present evidence of competence if circumstances of the claim indicates they weren’t……

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Chewbacka said:

That’s easy, if there isn’t a claim they must be competent, but if there is a claim, be prepared to present evidence of competence if circumstances of the claim indicates they weren’t……

 

This being??

 

Ok you may be able to provide evidence you have hired many times in the past or that you previously owned a boat but neither shows you were deemed 'competent'. And what if your experience has been gained by borrowing somebodies boat, with no documentation to back it up?

 

This is insurance companies we are talking about here, they aren't exactly renowned for being overly altruistic are they?

[David Mack]

37 minutes ago, Vasco826 said:

Please forgive my ignorance on this topic, but although a reasonably experienced helmsman I have never owned a NB before, a failing which I intend to rectify early next year! 

My question is about Insurance - so is it the Boat that is insured or is it the Owner / Helmsman.  My point is, if my wife and I buy a NB and insure it, are we the only ones who are allowed to be the "skipper" or can we let friends and family use it without us being on board (without financial gain) and still be covered by the Insurance should they mess up and damage another boat or CT infrastructure for example.

I welcome any thoughts please - note, I am not looking to hire it out or anything like that, either officially or otherwise!

Many thanks

Doug

You are usually covered for other people using the boat with your permission, provided there is no payment involved. Some companies may require you to be present, which in practice means its fine for the guest to steer the boat while you walk along the towpath or even perhaps nip off to the shops, but maybe not to take the boat for a weekend without you. Also, only covers adult (18 or over) guests. So if your children steer the boat (and most are perfectly capable of doing so from about age 10), there should always be an adult on the boat.

You should list both yourself and your wife as owners on the insurance, then there is no question that either of you could single hand the boat.

[Chewbacka]

4 minutes ago, MJG said:

 

This being??

 

Ok you may be able to provide evidence you have hired many times in the past or that you previously owned a boat but neither shows you were deemed 'competent'. And what if your experience has been gained by borrowing somebodies boat, with no documentation to back it up?

 

This is insurance companies we are talking about here, they aren't exactly renowned for being overly altruistic are they?

I would assume that a reputable insurance company would only question competence if the collision was caused by being incompetent in causing the collision etc. Then demonstrating competence is going to be difficult if the helmsman clearly wasn’t.  Same as doing gas work yourself, competence will only be investigated if something goes badly wrong.  

[David Mack]

Some insurers have the standard policy documents on their website so you can read through before committing.

[ditchcrawler]

33 minutes ago, MJG said:

 

This being??

 

Ok you may be able to provide evidence you have hired many times in the past or that you previously owned a boat but neither shows you were deemed 'competent'. And what if your experience has been gained by borrowing somebodies boat, with no documentation to back it up?

 

This is insurance companies we are talking about here, they aren't exactly renowned for being overly altruistic are they?

Mine accepted my word I was experienced but I took that out 20 years ago

[Vasco826]

I'm guessing from all of the comments (for which many thanks indeed!) that there is no such thing as a No Claims Bonus relating to Marine insurance - but since you don't have to pass a test to take the helm it would be pretty hard to validate anyway. 

 

Having witnessed some very "interesting" helmsmanship in my time afloat, both on the canals and on the Broads, it makes me wonder if it would not be a bad thing to have to pass a test, but that's a whole different topic which I'm sure has been thrashed to death numerous times on this marvellous forum. 

 

For my part, I guess holding certification for boats (various) from Dartmouth Naval College in the late 70s is at least some evidence of competence!

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

A slight side tack, when you do go for your first insurance policy for your boat make sure you stress how much experience you have through hiring, some companies are not happy taking on owners with no experience or qualifications today. I don't have my policy with me so cant comment on their requirements loaning to family etc.

Many thanks Brian - sound advice I'm sure

[Lady M]

My boat insurance policy includes a no claims discount.

[magnetman]

27 minutes ago, Vasco826 said:

 

For my part, I guess holding certification for boats (various) from Dartmouth Naval College in the late 70s is at least some evidence of competence!

Many thanks Brian - sound advice I'm sure

 

Its definitely interesting. In your post you said you may be letting friends use the Boat occasionally. Presumably if this were the case and they did not have experience then an insurer who did want the person in charge to be competent or experienced would potentially be able to get out of the claim. 

 

I don't know. 

 

If you are just worried about damage to other people or objects maybe a 3rd party only insurance policy would be appropriate. 

 

https://www.basic-boat.com/

 

Is an example and they have all the policy documents on the website. 

 

 

 

[Vasco826]

I'm thinking mainly of our family members - clearly I wouldn't let them loose without being comfortable for their safety and that of our investment, but some have already spent time on the canals with us and have a reasonable amount of experience.

I was intending to go fully comp on any insurance since we anticpate spending perhaps 50k or so on a boat, so not an amount I would want to lose should a disaster occur! On that basis, I'm assuming it would therefore also include 3rd party liability

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, Vasco826 said:

I'm thinking mainly of our family members - clearly I wouldn't let them loose without being comfortable for their safety and that of our investment, but some have already spent time on the canals with us and have a reasonable amount of experience.

I was intending to go fully comp on any insurance since we anticpate spending perhaps 50k or so on a boat, so not an amount I would want to lose should a disaster occur! On that basis, I'm assuming it would therefore also include 3rd party liability

Sounds good

@Vasco826  I found my policy on my computer so attached it as a PDF

Inland Waterways Policy Wording v4.PDF

32 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Sounds good

@Vasco826  I found my policy on my computer so attached it as a PDF

Inland Waterways Policy Wording v4.PDF

They also offer up to 25% NCD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Vasco826 said:

 For my part, I guess holding certification for boats (various) from Dartmouth Naval College in the late 70s is at least some evidence of competence!

 Well not really and it was a few years ago😂

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14563993/royal-navy-captain-smashed-hole-warship-damage/amp/

Edited December 20, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Vasco826]

concur - my claim to have evidence of competence from so far back was very much tongue in cheek! The antics of a pair of retired Naval Officers and their respective wives on a hired boat on the Broads certainly suggested otherwise, as my wife (wearing shorts and t-shirt), a ditch next to a pontoon, and a very large bed of nettles, could bear testimony.  Not entirely the helmsman's fault but not quite how my wife saw it!

[BilgePump]

When i sorted a new NB policy about 7 years ago, they did fully comp for the boat provided that dad or mum (owners), children (me&sis) or other 'qualified' friends were at the tiller.. 

[Vasco826]

thanks BilgePump - which of course raises the question about "qualified" ..

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Sounds good

@Vasco826  I found my policy on my computer so attached it as a PDF

Inland Waterways Policy Wording v4.PDF 698.04 kB · 0 downloads

They also offer up to 25% NCD

That's great, thank you very much - will have a peruse later

[MtB]

It's the boat that is insured, not the helmsman. 

 

Insurance has two different functions. 

 

1) A low-cost piece of paper (and who cares what it says) that is a passport to getting a licence, and not much more. Ideal for those happy to self-insure if push comes to shove. 

 

2) A high cost piece of paper that pays out compensating you for all mistakes from spilling wine on the carpet to setting fire to the curtains to sinking the boat, and everything in between. Also happens to be a passport to getting s licence.

 

 

 

 

[frahkn]

At each renewal my insurance company asks me to make a choice between a) the insurance covers me for any boat (subject to limitations)

and  b) the insurance covers the boat but any competent person can be in charge of it

 

I always pick (b)  as my daughter and her partner sometimes use the boat.

 

I suspect that I could have both for an extra premium.

[Vasco826]

That's interesting Frahkn, thank you.  Do you mind sharing the name of your Insurance company with me please?  You can PM me if you prefer (at least, I assume you can on this forum, never tried)

[blackrose]

16 hours ago, Vasco826 said:

My point is, if my wife and I buy a NB and insure it, are we the only ones who are allowed to be the "skipper" or can we let friends and family use it without us being on board

 

You've mentioned you're an experienced helmsman but I'm not sure if you've owned other types of boats before?

 

Anyway, apart from the insurance question, perhaps another, more basic thing to think about is do you really want to hand over your boat to other people? It sounds fine in theory before you even own a boat, but once you have actually bought the boat you'll have invested a lot of time & energy on the survey, the purchase, getting it to your desired location, and then getting it how you want it.

 

I guess it depends on the particular owner, but for many people all of that time and energy represents a lot of emotional investment and one can become quite protective of the boat. 

 

Nobody else will really care about your boat like you do and I've heard so many stories about people letting others use their boats only to later wish they hadn't. It's not just about crashing the boat into something and damaging it, there are so many other things on boats that people who don't understand or don't really care may do (or forget to do) that can cause a problem and give you as the owner a headache. 

[MtB]

 

9 hours ago, frahkn said:

At each renewal my insurance company asks me to make a choice between a) the insurance covers me for any boat (subject to limitations)

and  b) the insurance covers the boat but any competent person can be in charge of it

 

I always pick (b)  as my daughter and her partner sometimes use the boat.

 

I suspect that I could have both for an extra premium.

 

 

That's interesting. I wonder if CRT accept that type of insurance in Option A when applying for a boat licence, given I've always imagined it is the boat they require to be insured all the time, rather than only when in use by a nominated helmsman. 

 

Open to abuse if they do, as such a policyholder could use their insurance to license multiple boats, which would be uninsured if steered by helmsmen other than the policyholder.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by MtB