Issues with lithiums in very cold weather?

[nicknorman]

8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

On the original issue of keeping lithiums warm when they've been banished to the engine bay, and pursuant to Nick's rather smart idea of using the warm (and free) cabin air, I've found this inexpensive and low powered fan. 

It screws onto the cabin wall and sucks out air via a 1.25 inch pipe (which I dont yet have). 

I am hoping it will push enough warm air from the cabin into the battery box that the lithiums will be kept above zero. 

Although I only see this being used on the odd very cold night, I could plug it in via a timer and set it to start at say 5am, and that way the battery box will be well above zero by the time I approach the kettle, and we should never get into the territory of the chargers being disconnected. 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00ZRBCCV2/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A3NZ6AYGZT0ZJ6&psc=1

 

It just seems to make sense to use the freely available cabin air, as opposed to using power from within the batteries themselves, that will have to be replaced by running the engine, or using a genny. 

 

PS- if anyone knows a way to stop the deadly engine bay spiders from crawling along the pipe and into the bedroom, do tell. 

Some sort of non-return flap might foil the blighters. 

 

Also, if a pipe from the engine bay into the cabin is a safety issue (other than the obvious risk of being eaten by spiders), I'm better off finding out now. 

 

I would say that is way too powerful by a large factor. There is no point in blasting warm air at the batteries for a short time - that will warm the outside of the case nicely, but what you want is to keep the interstices warm, rather than letting them freeze overnight and then trying to warm them again in a hurry and actually just heating the case.

I would suggest a much smaller (axial) fan than runs constantly (in winter) to gently waft warm air over the batteries to balance out the heat loss into the cold engine bay. The better you insulate and seal the battery box (seal, but of course you need an outlet for the air on the far side) the less heat you need to supply and thus the smaller fan you need.

 

In summer on a long cruise day, the same fan will stop the batteries getting too warm.

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Can you please post a link to these draft regs as I can't find them anywhere including a google search under boat safety  scheme lithium. I couldn't find a thread called solar dump on here ether.

Here is the thread, though I'm not sure any of it applies to the BSS

 

 

[Tony1]

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Can you please post a link to these draft regs as I can't find them anywhere including a google search under boat safety  scheme lithium. I couldn't find a thread called solar dump on here ether.

 

Yes, no problem. This is the link Ian posted. 

As I understand it these (or something like them) will be introduced for the RCD certification,, but most people feel it is only a matter of time before the BSS also introduces some similar rules. 

 

https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/samples/76438/9f817478349b4f4f8770642cb1748902/ISO-TS-23625-2021.pdf

 

 

9 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I would say that is way too powerful by a large factor. There is no point in blasting warm air at the batteries for a short time - that will warm the outside of the case nicely, but what you want is to keep the interstices warm, rather than letting them freeze overnight and then trying to warm them again in a hurry and actually just heating the case.

I would suggest a much smaller (axial) fan than runs constantly (in winter) to gently waft warm air over the batteries to balance out the heat loss into the cold engine bay. The better you insulate and seal the battery box (seal, but of course you need an outlet for the air on the far side) the less heat you need to supply and thus the smaller fan you need.

 

In summer on a long cruise day, the same fan will stop the batteries getting too warm.

 

Thanks Nick, I was thinking about using the lowest power setting that moves about 35  cubic feet pre minute, but on reflection even that does seem a lot for a pipe of about an inch diameter. 

Does this look a bit more suitable?

Lower power, and less than 10 CF per minute on it slow setting- and very low power usage.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0C4HSWBSZ/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_4?smid=A1OGRI65268WXS&psc=1

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tony1

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Here is the thread, though I'm not sure any of it applies to the BSS

 

 

Thanks for that , Ill I got up were all the threads with solar dump in them. I will go for a read now

 

[nicknorman]

30 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Yes, no problem. This is the link Ian posted. 

As I understand it these (or something like them) will be introduced for the RCD certification,, but most people feel it is only a matter of time before the BSS also introduces some similar rules. 

 

https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/samples/76438/9f817478349b4f4f8770642cb1748902/ISO-TS-23625-2021.pdf

 

 

 

Thanks Nick, I was thinking about using the lowest power setting that moves about 35  cubic feet pre minute, but on reflection even that does seem a lot for a pipe of about an inch diameter. 

Does this look a bit more suitable?

Lower power, and less than 10 CF per minute on it slow setting- and very low power usage.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0C4HSWBSZ/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_4?smid=A1OGRI65268WXS&psc=1

 

 well still seems a fair bit, but on the other hand the cf/m will presume an unrestricted outlet, not a narrow pipe. So probably about right. If the power consumption (which I can’t immediately see in the spec) is low enough for it to be left on overnight, then fine.

Edited July 30, 2023 by nicknorman

[Tony1]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 well still seems a fair bit, but on the other hand the cf/m will presume an unrestricted outlet, not a narrow pipe. So probably about right. If the power consumption (which I can’t immediately see in the spec) is low enough for it to be left on overnight, then fine.

 

Cheers Nick, and yes I did wonder about the power usage, as it doesnt specify.

But then its USB powered, so I'm thinking its very likely to be low enough power that it can be left on at least from say 11pm till 7am.

They've only got 3 left and I've not seen anything similar (with a round pipe outlet which is much easier to fit ducting tube onto), so I'll take a punt on this one. 

 

 

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

Cheers Nick, and yes I did wonder about the power usage, as it doesnt specify.

But then its USB powered, so I'm thinking its very likely to be low enough power that it can be left on at least from say 11pm till 7am.

They've only got 3 left and I've not seen anything similar (with a round pipe outlet which is much easier to fit ducting tube onto), so I'll take a punt on this one. 

 

Ah yes, you need that must-have accessory aka a 3d printer, which is great for making adapters from square outlets to round outlets.

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Ah yes, you need that must-have accessory aka a 3d printer, which is great for making adapters from square outlets to round outlets.

 

I met a boater who had a 3D printer aboard and it looked like a really useful bit of kit, but I've no idea where I'd store the thing on a 50ft boat- I already have to to practically dismantle the entire vessel to find a long unused chisel or a box of washers. 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tony1

[magnetman]

 

[rusty69]

I'm impressed he has a chisel, let alone a long chisel. 

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I'm impressed he has a chisel, let alone a long chisel. 

 

It's what you do with the chisel....

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

It just seems to make sense to use the freely available cabin air, as opposed to using power from within the batteries themselves, that will have to be replaced by running the engine, or using a genny. 

 

 

Bear in mind that every cubic metre of warm cabin air you blow into the bilges to collymoddle your LiFePO4s you've so cruelly condemned to a life of loneliness under the deck boards, will have to be replaced by a cubic metre of stone cold air drawn into the cabin from the frosty great outdoors which you'll then need to heat. 

 

Or in through your stove flue. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by MtB

[Tony1]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Bear in mind that every cubic metre of warm cabin air you blow into the bilges to collymoddle your LiFePO4s you've so cruelly condemned to a life of loneliness under the deck boards, will have to be replaced by a cubic metre of stone cold air drawn into the cabin from the frosty great outdoors which you'll then need to heat. 

 

Or in through your stove flue. 

 

 

I agree that an issue worth bearing in mind. 

I'm no expert, but I can say that what definitely won't happen is air coming in through the flue. It seems likely that cold air will be drawn in through the various air vents.

 

But to the main point- the one thing I find that is in great excess during the coldest months is cabin heat. 

The fire is always ticking over during the night, and on the very cold nights it is slightly above tickover, so to speak. 

I think there were maybe one or two nights last winter- even the minus 10 nights- when I felt I needed to sleep with a T shirt on.

And even then I was a bit too warm. 

But from December to end of Feb, the cabin is always, always warm. In fact, many times its a bit too warm, and the idea of sucking in some cold external air is not unwelcome.

I dont think this fan will make a noticeable difference to the internal cabin temp- but I'll see how it goes, and if it does seem to cool things too much, I'll add a couple of extra coals to compensate for it.

I may even appreciate it, as it will suck the warmer air down from the stove at the front of the boat. 

But Its a tiny thing really, and being USB powered, you have to wonder what it will actually do, if anything. USB can struggle to power a small desk fan. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

PS- if anyone knows a way to stop the deadly engine bay spiders from crawling along the pipe and into the bedroom, do tell. 

Some sort of non-return flap might foil the blighters. 

 

 

Other sizes available ;

Flanged versions (to put into a hose) available

 

 

[Mike Todd]

18 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

That is my fear, I must admit, and yes it does seem likely they'll be forced to adopt a simplistic approach, if only from a lack of detailed knowledge. 

On the other hand, I maintain that with the use of victron components, I can demonstrate within a few minutes that my setup meets all of the BMS-type requirements in the (draft) regs. 

 

But if they really do refuse to sign off on any BMS systems that have elements of DIY construction, then there's not a lot us punters can do about it, except write off a grand or two, and if the funds are available, go out and buy fogstars or similar. 

 

 

I would have thought that they could only require compliance with a standard (like with smoke/CO detectors) not from a specific manufacturer. With the electrical installation, this is how it is specified. With gas, there is a requirement (in some cases) to use a competent and certified installer (and evidence to that). Unless and until there is an agreed qualification for the installation of non-Lead Acid batteries on boats then it is going to be difficult to frame rules realistically, other than something very generic.

 

The issue will also arise when selling - a surveyor is going to need to be convinced that they do not need to issue a warning in their report.

[1st ade]

14 hours ago, Tony1 said:

But Its a tiny thing really, and being USB powered, you have to wonder what it will actually do, if anything. USB can struggle to power a small desk fan.

And yet can charge quite a meaty laptop (over 100w on modern one's)

[magnetman]

I didn't know you could charge a laptop from a USB socket. 

The current seems far too high. 

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I didn't know you could charge a laptop from a USB socket. 

The current seems far too high

Deleted. 

 

Misread 

Edited July 31, 2023 by rusty69

[IanD]

29 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I would have thought that they could only require compliance with a standard (like with smoke/CO detectors) not from a specific manufacturer. With the electrical installation, this is how it is specified. With gas, there is a requirement (in some cases) to use a competent and certified installer (and evidence to that). Unless and until there is an agreed qualification for the installation of non-Lead Acid batteries on boats then it is going to be difficult to frame rules realistically, other than something very generic.

 

The issue will also arise when selling - a surveyor is going to need to be convinced that they do not need to issue a warning in their report.

It's also possible that they'll finally realise that LFP batteries are really safer than LA and only apply "special rules" to non-LFP lithium batteries -- because this is what *should* happen.

 

If they don't do this and treat them all as equally dangerous, than I can see many problems arising especially for DIY installs, or those using "non-approved" batteries e.g. cheap Chinese imports.

 

Reputable manufacturers like Victron are likely to have certified batteries in future, but these will inevitably be more expensive. I expect the cheap imports will go for fake approvals rather than actually doing anything to meet the rules...

[rusty69]

Hybrid setups are bound to be disqualified. 

 

Just sayin. 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Hybrid setups are bound to be disqualified. 

 

Just sayin. 

Why?

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Why?

Just to upset Tony really 😂

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Just to upset Tony really 😂

Ooh, that's classic troll behaviour though, innit? 😉

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Ooh, that's classic troll behaviour though, innit? 😉

Is it? I've never studied the classics. 

[Tony1]

47 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

The issue will also arise when selling - a surveyor is going to need to be convinced that they do not need to issue a warning in their report.

 

I imagine it will take the regulators 5-10 years to adapt the regs so that they become proportional to the actual risks involved with the actual batteries used in boats- as opposed to the batteries used in ebikes. 

So yes- anyone selling a boat with a DIY lithium install might well face an adverse comment or warning from a surveyor. 

My boat will hopefully pass in another month or two, before any new regs are introduced.

And if we get more stringent lithium regs that I dont think my install will comply with, I'll simply remove the lithiums and replace them with a bank of cheap lead acids before selling the boat.

All of my Victron charging and battery monitoring equipment will work equally well on lead acids (just change the charging profiles)- so the change back to lead acids would be very simple, and would cost less than £500. 

 

I'm certainly not paying for the best quality premium batteries from named/accredited manufacturers.

And any requirement that there has to be a professional install (by a 'lithium-safe' electrician, say)- will instantly reduce the adoption of lithiums to a trickle, by pricing most would-be adopters out of the upgrade.

There are probably many people who bought good batteries but did a DIY install. Surely they are not also going to be forced to get rid of them, just because the install wasn't done by a pro? 

Surely even the BSS wouldnt go that far?