Issues with lithiums in very cold weather?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

I imagine it will take the regulators 5-10 years to adapt the regs so that they become proportional to the actual risks involved with the actual batteries used in boats- as opposed to the batteries used in ebikes. 

 

 

I also seem to remember (Rob at BSS Office perhaps) commenting long ago that BSS requirements were based on histories of actual incidents. 

 

I remain to be convinced on this point (how many people for example have been injured or killed by the plastic leak-off pipes on a standard BMC 1.5? None I suspect), but if it is true we can expect a BSS reg about LFPs only once there has been a number of accidents or fires attributable to incorrectly installed LFPs in canal boat specifically. Shirley. 

 

And there have been none so far AFAIK. 

 

 

[Tony1]

28 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Hybrid setups are bound to be disqualified. 

 

Just sayin. 

 

 

Aha- but I have a cunning plan that cannot fail.

My lead acids are separated from the lithiums by B2B chargers, so they are only actually connected when the engine is running and charging is happening. 

Tbh it seems likely that when the time comes to get a BSS done with the future rules, and if they raise a failure against parts of my setup (and bear in mind there's going to be a bedding in period whilst they get used to interpreting the new requirements) it might be simpler to replace the lithiums with cheap lead acids, and just accept that I'm going to have to do lots more hours of genny charging. 

 

 

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

I also seem to remember (Rob at BSS Office perhaps) commenting long ago that BSS requirements were based on histories of actual incidents. 

 

I remain to be convinced on this point (how many people for example have been injured or killed by the plastic leak-off pipes on a standard BMC 1.5? None I suspect), but if it is true we can expect a BSS reg about LFPs only once there has been a number of accidents or fires attributable to incorrectly installed LFPs in canal boat specifically. Shirley. 

 

And there have been none so far AFAIK. 

 

 

There are two points I would mention on this. I remember the very diligent H+S folks at my old work collected stats on 'near-misses', as well as people actually being hurt- so this may be affecting their thinking about lithiums.

 

But I think the main point is Ian's one- there is every sign they are considering data from Li-ion batteries (ebike type) and EV's, as well as LFPs, and lumping them all together. 

I would agree with you in doubting that there has been a single fire involving LFP batteries, and almost certainly none on boats. 

And there certainly wont be very many in future, because very few people will feel that lithiums are worth the major expense that might be involved in meeting the regulations.

 

 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I also seem to remember (Rob at BSS Office perhaps) commenting long ago that BSS requirements were based on histories of actual incidents. 

 

I remain to be convinced on this point (how many people for example have been injured or killed by the plastic leak-off pipes on a standard BMC 1.5? None I suspect), but if it is true we can expect a BSS reg about LFPs only once there has been a number of accidents or fires attributable to incorrectly installed LFPs in canal boat specifically. Shirley. 

 

And there have been none so far AFAIK. 

 

IIRC Rod at marinehowto offered a cash prize some years ago to anyone who could supply information about a boat fire caused by LFP batteries. He's still not had to pay up...

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

IIRC Rod at marinehowto offered a cash prize some years ago to anyone who could supply information about a boat fire caused by LFP batteries. He's still not had to pay up...

Funnily enough, I was just reading that article

 

https://marinehowto.com/li-ion-be-careful-what-you-read-believe/

 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

There are two points I would mention on this. I remember the very diligent H+S folks at my old work collected stats on 'near-misses', as well as people actually being hurt- so this may be affecting their thinking about lithiums.

 

But I think the main point is Ian's one- there is every sign they are considering data from Li-ion batteries (ebike type) and EV's, as well as LFPs, and lumping them all together. 

I would agree with you in doubting that there has been a single fire involving LFP batteries, and almost certainly none on boats. 

And there certainly wont be very many in future, because very few people will feel that lithiums are worth the major expense that might be involved in meeting the regulations.

 

 

But we don't know what that expense could be -- could be zero for any installation not done by a complete muppet, could need an inspection/sign-off by a "qualified person" (whatever that means), could need modifications which might be cheap or expensive. Nobody knows, so making definitive statements like this is scaremongering worthy of the Daily Wail... 😉

Edited July 31, 2023 by IanD

[Tony1]

Just now, IanD said:

 

But we don't know what that expense could be -- could be zero for any installation not done by a complete muppet, could need an inspection/sign-off by a qualified person" (whatever that means), could need modifications which might be cheap or expensive. Nobody knows, so making definitive statements like this is scaremongering worthy of the Daily Wail... 😉

 

In fairness I did use the word 'might' in that highlighted sentence, so I'm not being completely definitive. 

But I think people really should know about and pay attention to these possible new regs. The implications could cost a lot of people a lot of money. 

I personally do think its more likely than not that they will insist on a pro install, or at least a pro inspection/sign-off. But they haven't even got the basic regs in place yet, so who knows when the 'pro approval' process could be implemented?

I also think its likely that insurance companies might ask for similar things, and also boat surveyors. 

At the very least, I think there are enough warning signs that anyone pondering buying lithiums for a DIY battery build and/or a DIY install should pause for a year or so, and see how the landscape changes. 

I've had mine well over 2 years so at least I've had some decent usage, and I may get a few years more before hitting problems.

But I've probably spent over £2k on my lithium setup, and much of that could be a complete waste if they rule out my DIY BMS system, for example.

Its very concerning, and I would hate to think of anyone not taking the impact of the potential new regs seriously, and maybe wasting a lot of money they can ill afford on kit that has to be dumped a couple of years later.

 

 

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

In fairness I did use the word 'might' in that highlighted sentence, so I'm not being completely definitive. 

But I think people really should know about and pay attention to these possible new regs. The implications could cost a lot of people a lot of money. 

I personally do think its more likely than not that they will insist on a pro install, or at least a pro inspection/sign-off. But they haven't even got the basic regs in place yet, so who knows when the 'pro approval' process could be implemented?

I also think its likely that insurance companies might ask for similar things, and also boat surveyors. 

At the very least, I think there are enough warning signs that anyone pondering buying lithiums for a DIY battery build and/or a DIY install should pause for a year or so, and see how the landscape changes. 

I've had mine well over 2 years so at least I've had some decent usage, and I may get a few years more before hitting problems.

But I've probably spent over £2k on my lithium setup, and much of that could be a complete waste if they rule out my DIY BMS system, for example.

Its very concerning, and I would hate to think of anyone not taking the impact of the potential new regs seriously, and maybe wasting a lot of money they can ill afford on kit that has to be dumped a couple of years later.

 

 

 

As reassurance, here's an article from the president of ABYC who are defining the US version of the lithium battery standards, showing that they're *very* aware that "LFP" and "lithium" are very different beasts... 🙂

 

https://marinehowto.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/ABYC_LFP_Testing.pdf

 

What happens with DIY builds is less certain, because it's very possible to do this badly, like any other electrical (or fuel/gas) installation, so it'll come down to what the risk is if things do go badly wrong. From what I can see the risk is no higher with LFP than any other high-current battery system including LA, which can set things on fire (cables, connectors, loads) if not properly fused and protected -- and doesn't have the explosion risk that LA has.

 

Anyone who has done a DIY install which includes recommended precautions like individual cell monitoring, over/undervoltage protection/alarm, and current limiting -- like any pro install should do -- is likely to be OK, since it should be similarly safe. There's no reason that these checks can't be part of a BSS inspection, they're basically just checking that the system includes these features and ticking the appropriate boxes, just like all the other BSS items -- including those for LA batteries.

 

Anyone who hasn't included these sensible precautions may deservedly run into problems... 😉

Edited July 31, 2023 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

What is the biggest fire risk on a Narrowboat from historical data? I would say solid fuel stoves. How tight are the BBS requirements on stoves? Basically fixed down, not damaged and no sign of burning. Not a word about any ISO, RCD requirement, Registered installer

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What is the biggest fire risk on a Narrowboat from historical data? I would say solid fuel stoves. How tight are the BBS requirements on stoves? Basically fixed down, not damaged and no sign of burning. Not a word about any ISO, RCD requirement, Registered installer

 

Shhh.... you'll give them ideas.....

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Shhh.... you'll give them ideas.....

 

 

 

One for you The BSS and the GSR

[magnetman]

Ideally they should ban humans from boats because humans are the cause of a large majority of fatal accidents.

 

 

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What is the biggest fire risk on a Narrowboat from historical data? I would say solid fuel stoves. How tight are the BBS requirements on stoves? Basically fixed down, not damaged and no sign of burning. Not a word about any ISO, RCD requirement, Registered installer

 

Or possibly cigarettes, the same as for many house fires... 😉

[Jon57]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Or possibly cigarettes, the same as for many house fires... 😉

Or air fryer used as a old fashioned chip pan. 😁

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Ideally they should ban humans from boats because humans are the cause of a large majority of fatal accidents.

 

 

Cause *and* effect -- it's also quite difficult to have a fatal accident it there's nobody there to be fatalised... 😉

[Mike Todd]

On 31/07/2023 at 14:27, IanD said:

 

But we don't know what that expense could be -- could be zero for any installation not done by a complete muppet, could need an inspection/sign-off by a "qualified person" (whatever that means), could need modifications which might be cheap or expensive. Nobody knows, so making definitive statements like this is scaremongering worthy of the Daily Wail... 😉

Could become like gas safe where individuals have to do all sorts of different, specialised, courses and can only work on installations that match their qualifications. At the moment we only think about 'qualified electrician' in a generic sense but it may be that such rules (not just for boats) will require 'battery power' qualified, or whatever both to conform to BSS and also to obtain insurance.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Could become like gas safe where individuals have to do all sorts of different, specialised, courses and can only work on installations that match their qualifications. At the moment we only think about 'qualified electrician' in a generic sense but it may be that such rules (not just for boats) will require 'battery power' qualified, or whatever both to conform to BSS and also to obtain insurance.

Except there's no logical reason that "gas-like" safety is needed for LFP battery installations any more than it is for LA batteries, because if anything LFP is safer than LA. The biggest risk of a bad installation is reduced -- possibly very short! -- lifetime of expensive batteries and things attached to them, meaning only the boater's pocket gets damaged not their boat... 😉

 

NMC or similar chemistries are a very different matter, it's not difficult to see these as similarly dangerous to gas -- in fact if you compare the number of house fires currently being caused by them (e.g. exploding escooters) with gas explosions, they're probably more dangerous given the relative numbers of escooters and gas installations... 😞

 

But then surely nobody in their right mind would install non-LFP lithium batteries on a boat? 😉

 

(yes I know some yachts have done it, allegedly with fiery consequences...)

[nicknorman]

57 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Could become like gas safe where individuals have to do all sorts of different, specialised, courses and can only work on installations that match their qualifications. At the moment we only think about 'qualified electrician' in a generic sense but it may be that such rules (not just for boats) will require 'battery power' qualified, or whatever both to conform to BSS and also to obtain insurance.

Seems somewhat over-egging it. At the moment you don’t need any sort of qualification to work on gas or electricity (mains or 12v) on leisure boats, or for electricity on residential boats. In fact the applicability of gas safe to residential boats is questionable if you are doing the work on your own boat and you are competent to do so. You only need a gas safe bod if they are going to do work on your residential boat. People qualified to work on boat electrics don’t exist because there is no such qualification and history shows that introducing such a qualification/requirement could not be justified.

Edited August 2, 2023 by nicknorman

[MtB]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

In fact the applicability of gas safe to residential boats is questionable if you are doing the work on your own boat and you are competent to do so.

 

 

No it isn't! The law is perfectly clear, you only need to be GSR if you are being paid to do gas work on a residential boat.

 

The grossly incompetent DIY muppet installing a death trap in his own liveaboard is perfectly free to do so under the law as it relates to Gas Safe registration, because no-one is paying him or her to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by MtB
Clarify a point.

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

No it isn't! The law is perfectly clear, you only need to be GSR if you are being paid to do gas work on a residential boat.

 

The grossly incompetent DIY muppet installing a death trap in his own liveaboard is perfectly free to do so under the law as it relates to Gas Safe registration, because no-one is paying him or her to do it.

 

 

Would hopefully be a BSS fail though... 😉

[magnetman]

Battery Safe courses £2,345. Get them while they're hot! Huge demand expected. 6 day course. Use this code for 10% increase in fees YS221. 

 

Fireproof vest and breathing apparatus available to hire on a minutely basis. 

 

Positively removing the negatives from lithium battery ownership. 

 

www.stopbatteryfires org.uk

 

 

[Tony1]

 

As a brief follow up on the issue of lithiums in very cold weather, I discovered this very affordable heating pad on Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07Y5WPF7W/ref=sw_img_1?smid=A2GBL94B2O20KZ&th=1

 

Proper ones are hard to find and seem to cost significantly more. 

This is intended for people who grow plants in cold weather, but it is waterproof, and it looks like it might be worth a punt. 

My original plan was to construct a hot air duct from the (very) heated cabin into the battery compartment (all this bodgery will be done once the BSS is complete, of course).

But the concern is that to date, anything that I devise bearing the Heath-Robinson trade name has failed miserably. 

 

This thing only uses about 20 watts, so perhaps 1.6 amps, and it promises to keep objects above it 6 degrees warmer than the ambient air temp, which will be enough on all but the coldest nights. 

 

1.6 amps might not be ideal, but it wont even be needed on most winter nights. And on most nights you do use it, you would get away with switching it on at bedtime and leaving it running overnight. There will be those mini ice ages we get, where the heater might want leaving on for 16 hours a day, but that will be very much the exception.  

The only snag in my cunning plan is that it is mains powered, and I was told that using mains power in the engine bay was a potential BSS concern. So there is that.

But if anyone has any definite info on this question, please do chime in with your thoughts.

Even if your thoughts are that I might be killed in a raging inferno within 30 minutes of switching it on.

 

 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

As a brief follow up on the issue of lithiums in very cold weather, I discovered this very affordable heating pad on Amazon:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07Y5WPF7W/ref=sw_img_1?smid=A2GBL94B2O20KZ&th=1

 

Proper ones are hard to find and seem to cost significantly more. 

This is intended for people who grow plants in cold weather, but it is waterproof, and it looks like it might be worth a punt. 

My original plan was to construct a hot air duct from the (very) heated cabin into the battery compartment (all this bodgery will be done once the BSS is complete, of course).

But the concern is that to date, anything that I devise bearing the Heath-Robinson trade name has failed miserably. 

 

This thing only uses about 20 watts, so perhaps 1.6 amps, and it promises to keep objects above it 6 degrees warmer than the ambient air temp, which will be enough on all but the coldest nights. 

 

1.6 amps might not be ideal, but it wont even be needed on most winter nights. And on most nights you do use it, you would get away with switching it on at bedtime and leaving it running overnight. There will be those mini ice ages we get, where the heater might want leaving on for 16 hours a day, but that will be very much the exception.  

The only snag in my cunning plan is that it is mains powered, and I was told that using mains power in the engine bay was a potential BSS concern. So there is that.

But if anyone has any definite info on this question, please do chime in with your thoughts.

Even if your thoughts are that I might be killed in a raging inferno within 30 minutes of switching it on.

 

 

 

Still puzzled why you feel the need to move your LFPs out into the coldest bit of your boat. 

 

I keep mine in the warm bit so there is no need for all this dicking about! 

 

 

[Tony1]

46 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Still puzzled why you feel the need to move your LFPs out into the coldest bit of your boat. 

 

I keep mine in the warm bit so there is no need for all this dicking about! 

 

 

 

 

Tbh its a combination of several things that pushed me into doing it. 

 

1. I've heard from two different boat engineer guys that indoor lithiums are frowned upon by the BSS inspectors that they talk to.

Yes, I know there are no relevant current regs on this, but it seems that one or two are already inventing their own regs in anticipation of possible new BSS regs in a year or two. And I don't want to get into any debates with the BSS or their inspectors. I just cant cant be arsed with the hassle. 

 

2. Storage space is severely limited indoors, and even a few cubic feet freed up will be very welcome. 

 

3. I have to move them anyway. They're on a shelf and I'm not 100% sure how strong it is against their considerable weight- especially if I have to add restraints and gear to secure them in position properly. So the ball-ache of a battery move has to be undertaken no matter what. 

 

4. There are not too many reports by people who boat in winter about problems trying to charge batteries in the freezing weather. The issues there are seem to be kind of manageable. 

 

5. Insurance companies are getting in on the act. Just today I went to warn the folks on the boat moored next to me that I might have to make some noise doing the battery move, and he told me he'd had a letter from his insurance company with a number of stipulations about 'lithium ion' batteries.

 

ETA:

 

6. I'm hopeless with general electrical stuff, and competent boat electricians are stupidly difficult to find, and very slow to book. So my hope is to eliminate any electrical failure issues before I even show up, because it might not be possible to book an electrician to fix things in the limited time you get to remedy the faults before a recheck.

And especially so for any faults that have the word lithium in them. 

 

It may be a fools errand, in that I might never be able to fully satisfy all of the regs that BSS or insurance people introduce, with my ex-EV batteries. 

We can only wait and see how things go- and tbh, if I have trouble with the lithiums this winter, I'll probably move them back indoors.

Indoors is absolutely the sensible place for them, given their optimum temps etc- but until the BSS is done, they are banished to the engine bay. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Tony1

[MtB]

22 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

Tbh its a combination of several things that pushed me into doing it. 

 

1. I've heard from two different boat engineer guys that indoor lithiums are frowned upon by the BSS inspectors that they talk to.

Yes, I know there are no relevant current regs on this, but it seems that one or two are already inventing their own regs in anticipation of possible new BSS regs in a year or two. And I don't want to get into any debates with the BSS or their inspectors. I just cant cant be arsed with the hassle. 

 

2. Storage space is severely limited indoors, and even a few cubic feet freed up will be very welcome. 

 

3. I have to move them anyway. They're on a shelf and I'm not 100% sure how strong it is against their considerable weight- especially if I have to add restraints and gear to secure them in position properly. So the ball-ache of a battery move has to be undertaken no matter what. 

 

4. There are not too many reports by people who boat in winter about problems trying to charge batteries in the freezing weather. The issues there are seem to be kind of manageable. 

 

5. Insurance companies are getting in on the act. Just today I went to warn the folks on the boat moored next to me that I might have to make some noise doing the battery move, and he told me he'd had a letter from his insurance company with a number of stipulations about 'lithium ion' batteries.

 

It may be a fools errand, in that I might never be able to fully satisfy all of the regs that BSS or insurance people introduce, with my ex-EV batteries. 

We can only wait and see how things go- and tbh, if I have trouble with the lithiums this winter, I'll probably move them back indoors.

Indoors is absolutely the sensible place for them, given their optimum temps etc- but until the BSS is done, they are banished to the engine bay. 

 

 

Dare I suggest, I think it might be an eye deer to, like, loosen up ever so slightly :D 

 

Things change, rules get updated, personal circumstances shift and stuff that seemed important at the time turns out not to have bin. 

 

Wait until them rules actually change, then stress about it. Who nose, buy then you might have changed botes, or ANYTHINK mite of happened! This is the way of them canals, and of lief. 

 

Nice wine this. Can u tell?