Identifying boat maker

[uncle nick]

Hi all, I’ve seen a project 40’ narrowboat (yes I know but it’s a starting point) but the vendor doesn’t know the boat year or make and a search on canal planner doesn’t show them either. 
Is there a way to find out details such as these? I suspect they’ll be wanted for insurance and CRT licence as well or is it not essential for a nb?

Thanks. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by uncle nick

[magnetman]

If you put a picture of the bow and stern on here someone might well know the maker if it was not a one off. 

 

Other than that I can't see all that many ways to ID a narrow boat. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Does it have a C&RT (BW) registration plate / number - that can give a starting point for age.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

They are essential on CaRT waters, All depends where the boat is, is it on the water or in a farmers field? Where is the boat? Has it a CaRT registered number? Any paperwork? Name?

 More info could help identify it and maybe history.

[uncle nick]

The number is 519542, canalplan listing is:

Henry Built by Unknown - Length : 12.19 metres ( 40 feet ) - Beam : 2.083 metres ( 6 feet 10 inches ) - Draft : 0.41 metres ( 1 foot 4 inches ). Metal hull N/A power of 999 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 519542 as a Powered Motor Boat.  ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 ) 

 

I’m thinking Springer due to the curved prow but is that enough of a curve?

Thanks

With that much power it shouldn’t be hard to get her on the plane! 😀

[Tonka]

7 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

They are essential on CaRT waters, All depends where the boat is, is it on the water or in a farmers field? Where is the boat? Has it a CaRT registered number? Any paperwork? Name?

 More info could help identify it and maybe history.

They are not essential. And fraud is actually allowed. Boat Fitters are actually allowed to say that they have built the boat where in fact they have just fitted. Surely this is fraud. 

[mrsmelly]

Not a Springer. But apart from that??

[BilgePump]

5 minutes ago, uncle nick said:

 

Henry Built by Unknown - Length : 12.19 metres ( 40 feet ) - Beam : 2.083 metres ( 6 feet 10 inches ) - Draft : 0.41 metres ( 1 foot 4 inches ). Metal hull N/A power of 999 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 519542 as a Powered Motor Boat.  ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 ) 

 

With that much power it shouldn’t be hard to get her on the plane! 😀

Sorry, can't help with identifying the maker but you'll find that there are lots of other boats that on their listings have an engine like a Bugatti Veyron. Lots of boats also appear as having a draft of only a centimetre. The hulls must be made of that 'lighter-than-air' steel.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

5 minutes ago, Tonka said:

They are not essential. And fraud is actually allowed. Boat Fitters are actually allowed to say that they have built the boat where in fact they have just fitted. Surely this is fraud. 

I was talking about License and Insurance, which I think is essential to most boats and people. Obviously not that big a thing about shell builders and boat fitters and who claims to be the boat builder of a completed boat.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, uncle nick said:

The number is 519542,

 

 

That is a 1992 registration number BUT if it came from non-C&RT waters it would not have been registered.

 

So, it is, at a minimum, 31 years old.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

14 minutes ago, Tonka said:

They are not essential. And fraud is actually allowed. Boat Fitters are actually allowed to say that they have built the boat where in fact they have just fitted. Surely this is fraud. 

I was talking about License and Insurance, which I think is essential to most boats and people. Obviously not that big a thing about shell builders and boat fitters and who claims to be the boat builder of a completed boat.

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That is a 1992 registration number BUT if it came from non-C&RT waters it would not have been registered.

 

So, it is, at a minimum, 31 years old.

Are you sure about that? My 1994 built boat has a 5 figure number and has always had the number since new

[Athy]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That is a 1992 registration number BUT if it came from non-C&RT waters it would not have been registered.

 

So, it is, at a minimum, 31 years old.

I was thinking along similar lines - but I would suggest that the registration is far more recent than 1992. Ours starts with 518 and she was first on CART waters about 2010. So, either the boat was kept on other waters for some time or, more alarmingly, it has been so neglected that it has achieved 'project boat' statue in little more than ten years.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That is a 1992 registration number BUT if it came from non-C&RT waters it would not have been registered.

 

So, it is, at a minimum, 31 years old.

Not a 1992 registered number 519542 is a 2010 number, so the boat has been on non-CaRT waters, or land for a long time prior to it being CaRT registered. Or just left neglected.

  Looks like it’s had it’s original wooden rear doors replaced along with it’s deck board recently. Also a few distinctive features, small ladder, double mooring dolly’s and bottom tiller stock could identify shell builders traits?

 Also looks like some plate welding is needed on the back deck, if that’s rust holes under the rope?

@uncle nick how much is the seller asking?

Edited July 22, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[David Mack]

Over the years there have been lots of small companies as well as individuals who have built one, two or a few narrowboat shells, then quietly disappeared. And mostly nobody remembers them or knows which boats they built. And as boat change hands, move to different areas, are refitted, get renamed etc. any connection with their origins gets lost.

As that canalplan listing shows its perfectly possible to licence a boat as built by 'unknown', and where boatbuilder information is given it can be wrong.

Nobody worries about it. When you are looking at a boat that age, current condition, equipment and facilities is much more important than who built it.

And as noted above 'boatbuilder' can refer to the original shell builder, a boat fitter who bought in a shell from elsewhere and fitted it out, or a boat seller that bought in the shell from one third party and contracted the fitting out to another third party then sold the boat in their own name.

[Tonka]

17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Over the years there have been lots of small companies as well as individuals who have built one, two or a few narrowboat shells, then quietly disappeared. And mostly nobody remembers them or knows which boats they built. And as boat change hands, move to different areas, are refitted, get renamed etc. any connection with their origins gets lost.

As that canalplan listing shows its perfectly possible to licence a boat as built by 'unknown', and where boatbuilder information is given it can be wrong.

Nobody worries about it. When you are looking at a boat that age, current condition, equipment and facilities is much more important than who built it.

And as noted above 'boatbuilder' can refer to the original shell builder, a boat fitter who bought in a shell from elsewhere and fitted it out, or a boat seller that bought in the shell from one third party and contracted the fitting out to another third party then sold the boat in their own name.

So if Sam Springer built a shell and sold it to someone who fitted it out. They could register it after fit out and record it as built by them.

So for an example built by Tonka. The insurance company don't need to know it was built by Springer and it can be sold on without anyone knowing what it is. 

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, Tonka said:

So if Sam Springer built a shell and sold it to someone who fitted it out. They could register it after fit out and record it as built by them.

So for an example built by Tonka. The insurance company don't need to know it was built by Springer and it can be sold on without anyone knowing what it is. 

I think that's quite correct. Our last boat was built by Devizes NBB on a Liverpool shell; this is a commonly used formula when stating a boat's origin.

It could also have been styled 'Liverpool, fit-out by Devizes NBB' which you would, I suspect, find preferable. But there was nothing fraudulent about the Devizes company, they were as honest as the day was long.

[Tonka]

10 minutes ago, Athy said:

I think that's quite correct. Our last boat was built by Devizes NBB on a Liverpool shell; this is a commonly used formula when stating a boat's origin.

It could also have been styled 'Liverpool, fit-out by Devizes NBB' which you would, I suspect, find preferable. But there was nothing fraudulent about the Devizes company, they were as honest as the day was long.

But in my example you would not need the survey  when the Springer gets to a certain age and every 3 years that a Springer has to have to get comprehensive insurance. All because it was recorded as built built by Tonka

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

10 minutes ago, Tonka said:

But in my example you would not need the survey  when the Springer gets to a certain age and every 3 years that a Springer has to have to get comprehensive insurance. All because it was recorded as built built by Tonka

Do insurance companies make it a thing for Springers to get a full hull survey every 3 years? are they treated differently form other boats over 25 years of age?

Edited July 22, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tonka]

2 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Do insurance companies make it a thing for Springers to get a full hull survey every 3 years? are they treated differently form other boats over 25 years of age?

Well I know they were by Saga when they insured boats which is what I quoted. I assumed it was the same with other insurers

[magnetman]

Stern deck on tread plate is quite unusual. 

[BWM]

The round profile of the top of the stem post looks identical to those seen on vessels built by Floating homes, or one of their other incarnations. This is often accompanied by very basic 'T' studs, but not exclusively. 

[magnetman]

Home build I reckon. Stainless steel doors and hatch also the rudder post detail and the double mooring dollies are very unusual. 

 

Cant handrails look a bit thin and awkward. 

 

The little ladder .. Etc etc 

[uncle nick]

Thanks to all for your comments. 
I’m hoping not being a Springer should help with dry docking for a survey, cleaning and blacking. 

So is manufacturer and build date not needed for the licence and insurance?

 

I’m surprised boats don’t have the equivalent of a VIN to aid identification, deter theft etc?

Edited July 22, 2023 by uncle nick

[mrsmelly]

14 minutes ago, uncle nick said:

Thanks to all for your comments. 
I’m hoping not being a Springer should help with dry docking for a survey, cleaning and blacking. 

So is manufacturer and build date not needed for the licence and insurance?

 

I’m surprised boats don’t have the equivalent of a VIN to aid identification, deter theft etc?

Later boats do indeed have similar to a VIN but that shell will likely pre date that. CIN iirc when I fitted my new hull out several years ago. The exact date evades me and google will be your friend. However not all boats comply and some still do not.

Edited July 22, 2023 by mrsmelly