Solar dump.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

You will be refused travel on GWR rail services if you attempt to bring an escooter onto the train. This does not apply to ebikes. 

 

Something going on here not related to the battery chemistry. 

 

 

Whilst chrains are wonderful to see dashing across the countryside, actually going on them is fraught with unpredictable difficulties such as this, and best avoided in my experience. 

 

Often full of ordinary people too, yuck. Also best avoided...

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

I use trains quite a lot to get from the London estate to the country estate. Yes there are some pleb issues but I usually find setting my phone hotspot to say "I am Jesus" irons out the issues for a number of different reasons.

 

It is remarkable how many people do use the unsecured network (1mb data limit) despite presumably having their own data allowances. 

 

Even funnier in the underground section of the Crossrail line. 

 

One does get some quite funny expressions at times. They look around wondering who it is who might be the Saviour. Then reality hits. 

 

All good fun. 

 

[MtB]

47 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I use trains quite a lot to get from the London estate to the country estate. Yes there are some pleb issues but I usually find setting my phone hotspot to say "I am Jesus" irons out the issues for a number of different reasons.

 

It is remarkable how many people do use the unsecured network (1mb data limit) despite presumably having their own data allowances. 

 

Even funnier in the underground section of the Crossrail line. 

 

One does get some quite funny expressions at times. They look around wondering who it is who might be the Saviour. Then reality hits. 

 

All good fun. 

 

 

Lol. 

 

My daughter has named her phone hotspot "GCHQ Surveillance". 

 

 

For similar fun and laughs

[Swanky pirate]

As regards to to power banks solar generators many boaters have them now and the new ones have lfp batteries I use mine daily didn't even think whether it would invalidate my insurance. 

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Swanky pirate said:

As regards to to power banks solar generators many boaters have them now and the new ones have lfp batteries I use mine daily didn't even think whether it would invalidate my insurance. 

Which points out how ridiculous that insurance document is...

 

Having said that, power banks with NMC batteries have been responsible for fires, not helped by the availability of badly-designed/built cheap imports from China.

 

Ones using LFP are safe, which is yet another reason why these companies need to get their act together and stop lumping all batteries under the "dangerous lithium" label... 😞

[Tony1]

19 hours ago, rusty69 said:

I got this notice from my insurance company about lithium - ion batteries the other day. Never had one before. 

 

Thanks for posting Rusty. Who are your insurers? 

 

If that list becomes common to all of them it looks disastrous for DIY installers- in fact some pro installs might be affected too. 

 

For example, not being permitted to charge near flammable material would rule out my indoor location for the batteries, as they are in a wooden cupboard- as does the requirement that you must charge on a fireproof surface.

In fact people who have wooden boxes in the engine bay to hold their lithiums might also have a problem.

(Do those battery heating pads count as a fireproof surface?) 

 

I'm not sure how you assure yourself in winter that you are charging above 5 degrees. I guess you'll have to state that you check the temp in the engine bay every morning, or before running the engine.

 

I think rather than hit complications in my November BSS, I might move my batteries into the engine bay before then. 

 

Buying used batteries also seems to be ruled out, which again is a non-compliance for my setup. 

 

Its a bit of a sickener tbh, and it'll take them a couple of years of argument before they wise up that LiFeP04 are much safer, and change the rules to suit. It always seems to take three times as long to get a safety rule removed after its been debunked, than it takes to get the rule put in place.

 

If all the insurers adopt these rules, then in my case it might mean having to ditch my current batteries (with over a decade of life left in them), and buying new ones- or else risk not having fully valid insurance in place, if a disaster strikes.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Tony1

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks for posting Rusty. Who are your insurers? 

 

If that list becomes common to all of them it looks disastrous for DIY installers- in fact some pro installs might be affected too. 

 

For example, not being permitted to charge near flammable material would rule out my indoor location for the batteries, as they are in a wooden cupboard- as does the requirement that you must charge on a fireproof surface.

In fact people who have wooden boxes in the engine bay to hold their lithiums might also have a problem.

(Do those battery heating pads count as a fireproof surface?) 

 

I'm not sure how you assure yourself in winter that you are charging above 5 degrees. I guess you'll have to state that you check the temp in the engine bay every morning, or before running the engine.

 

I think rather than hit complications in my November BSS, I might move my batteries into the engine bay before then. 

 

Buying used batteries also seems to be ruled out, which again is a non-compliance for my setup. 

 

Its a bit of a sickener tbh, and it'll take them a couple of years of argument before they wise up that LiFeP04 are much safer, and change the rules to suit. It always seems to take three times as long to get a safety rule removed after its been debunked, than it takes to get the rule put in place.

 

If all the insurers adopt these rules, then in my case it might mean having to ditch my current batteries (with over a decade of life left in them), and buying new ones- or else risk not having fully valid insurance in place, if a disaster strikes.

 

Other insurance companies seem to have more sensible policies about lithium batteries, if they have one at all. If you're worried then you could check with your insurer, but start out by saying you have safer LFP batteries not more dangerous NMC ones.

[Hudds Lad]

12 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Lol. 

 

My daughter has named her phone hotspot "GCHQ Surveillance". 

 

 

For similar fun and laughs

"SurveillanceVan5" and "TV Licensing" are ones i use  

[magnetman]

It could get interesting. 

 

One idly wonders what the status would be if a boat which happened to have lithium batteries caught fire and damaged another boat. 

.If the fire was for example caused by the wood stove overheating and nothing to do with the batteries would the cover be invalidated simply because of the batteries if the unsurance conpany had added a battery clause? 

 

Presumably it would have to be established that the batteries were the cause. Or would it? 

 

 

 

Might incorrectly installed lithium batteries invalidate 3rd party insurance?

 

 

[Tony1]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It could get interesting. 

 

One idly wonders what the status would be if a boat which happened to have lithium batteries caught fire and damaged another boat. 

.If the fire was for example caused by the wood stove overheating and nothing to do with the batteries would the cover be invalidated simply because of the batteries if the unsurance conpany had added a battery clause? 

 

Presumably it would have to be established that the batteries were the cause. Or would it? 

 

 

 

Might incorrectly installed lithium batteries invalidate 3rd party insurance?

 

 

 

I assume the insurance company would say that the boater did not comply with one of the rules of the agreement,  therefore the whole contract was invalid. 

Doesn't matter which rule, or if the area of the boat involved in the broken rule was a factor in the fire or not. 

 

[rusty69]

49 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Thanks for posting Rusty. Who are your insurers? 

Newton Crum. 

 

Though when asked, the document was referred to as an "information sheet". Read into that what you will. 

[PeterF]

55 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I'm not sure how you assure yourself in winter that you are charging above 5 degrees. I guess you'll have to state that you check the temp in the engine bay every morning, or before running the engine.

Ordinarily there are temperature sensors in the battery that communicate with the BMS which disables charging if the temperature is too low. Some of the self heated types activate the self heating if temp is below 5degC using charger power then allow charging once above this.

[GUMPY]

4 hours ago, Tony1 said:

I'm not sure how you assure yourself in winter that you are charging above 5 degrees. I guess you'll have to state that you check the temp in the engine bay every morning, or before running the engine

My lithium batteries tell me the temperature they are at and the Inverter/BMS  reduces  the charge automatically if needed.

 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

My lithium batteries tell me the temperature they are at and the Inverter/BMS  reduces  the charge automatically if needed.

 

 

The lowest allowable charging temperature depends on the battery manufacturer anyway, which shows up how wrong the "advice sheet" is even more.

 

Many manufacturers just use a blanket "don't charge below 0C" but this is really to keep things simple. Some suppliers who have their own BMS inside the battery allow charging at lower temperatures, but don't often give away what the maximum allowable charging current is (which drops with temperature) because it's their "secret sauce" -- for example BYD specify full rate charging (1C rate?) above 5C with "charge current derating" below this down to -10C, this was done in response to market demand to allow cold weather charging for off-grid applications.

Edited July 19, 2023 by IanD

[Tony1]

4 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Newton Crum. 

 

Though when asked, the document was referred to as an "information sheet". Read into that what you will. 

 

I think if you had the phrase 'this is an information sheet' in an email from them, that might be enough to mount a legal challenge if they ever refused to honour a claim because one of those points was not fully met.

 

But tbh the whole thing seems like a bloody mess for the next few years, as Ian says. 

That information sheet implies that you should mount lithiums on a fireproof base and away from flammable materials, so a standard install in a wooden box in the engine bay, and with a warming pad underneath, might make you non-compliant (if they were to push their case and dispute a claim). 

And that just seems like ridiculous overkill for LiFeP04 batteries. 

 

Add to that, it seems as if one or two BSS inspectors might be already starting to behave as if some of the future regs are already in place, so there'll probably be major inconsistencies in the way they approach lithiums for the next few years.

 

As usual, its the bloody boaters who are going to get shafted, and have to fork out for unnecessary changes and work.

I mean, simply banning the use of second hand LiFeP04 batteries just seems totally unnecessary to me. 

 

My insurance is due for renewal next month (craftinsure), so lets see if there are any information sheets or guidelines forthcoming when I renew. 

 

 

 

 

 

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

My insurance is due for renewal next month (craftinsure), so lets see if there are any information sheets or guidelines forthcoming when I renew. 

 

Good luck. 

 

Thankfully there are no lithium batteries on that insured boat. 

 

The one that does have lithium cells is with a different insurance company and passed it's BSS last year with the lithiums installed. 

 

Who knows what will happen in the next 3 years though. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by rusty69

[Swanky pirate]

I have As regards to to power banks solar generators many boaters have them now and the new ones have lfp batteries I use mine daily didn't even think whether it would invalidate my insurance. 

[Tony1]

4 hours ago, PeterF said:

Ordinarily there are temperature sensors in the battery that communicate with the BMS which disables charging if the temperature is too low. Some of the self heated types activate the self heating if temp is below 5degC using charger power then allow charging once above this.

 

Thanks Peter. 

My batteries are a second hand set, originally designed for use in an EV, and with a separate external BMS unit that I dont have- so they have no internal BMS as such, although they have cell monitoring via an external PC, and a limited amount of balancing. I've set up some disconnect switches that are controlled by BMV712s, which act as the BMS in many ways. 

I think the batteries do have a temp monitor in them,  but what they dont have is a means for me to monitor the temp in real time and stop the charging if they get too cold. 

If I can get them through the BSS (prob Sept), I'll see if a BMV712 can be used. 

I know the BMV712 will accept an external/auxiliary sensor, so in theory a temp sensor could be connected, but I dont think that auxiliary input can be used to trigger alarms and disconnects via the relay in the BMV712. 

But worth doing though. Once they are sited out in the engine bay they will be subject to minus temps frequently in winter, and if I start an early cruise on a winter morning, I'll need a system to automatically stop the charging until things get above zero in the engine bay. 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Tony1

[IanD]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Good luck. 

 

Thanfully there are no lithium batteries on that insured boat. 

 

The one that does have lithium cells is with a different insurance company and passed it's BSS last year with the lithiums installed. 

 

Who knows what will happen in the next 3 years though. 

 

Hopefully insurance companies (at least, some of them) will get educated about LFP batteries -- safer than LA, after all -- and the problem for boaters who use them will effectively go away.

 

What happens with NMC batteries in e-scooters or anything else is less clear, because these have caused a fair number of fires and killed people -- but there's no reason boats should be treated any differently to houses, and the insurers will have to decide what to do there far more urgently than for boats because there are 1000x more of them, so maybe no need for boaters to worry about this... 😉

[Swanky pirate]

I have four 125 amp semi traction batteries plus starting battery a 1000 wts of solar on the roof just fitted them will see how they workl lfp is in my solar generator and 400 wts suite case for that but for the winter will charge it with a petrol generator takes one and a half hrs from empty to full I think it's a good set up for off grid .

[n-baj]

Is the BS proposing covering lifepo4 batteries in their list of requirements? If so does anyone know where the proposals are? Have they started a consultation? I’ve looked on the BS website and all I can find is this;

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/about-us/introducing-the-revision-of-the-core-bss-examination-checking-procedures/

 

many thanks

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Swanky pirate said:

I have four 125 amp semi traction batteries plus starting battery a 1000 wts of solar on the roof just fitted them will see how they workl lfp is in my solar generator and 400 wts suite case for that but for the winter will charge it with a petrol generator takes one and a half hrs from empty to full I think it's a good set up for off grid .

 

Que? ¿ !

[Sea Dog]

12 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Que? ¿ !

He's from Barcelona... 

[IanD]

15 hours ago, n-baj said:

Is the BS proposing covering lifepo4 batteries in their list of requirements? If so does anyone know where the proposals are? Have they started a consultation? I’ve looked on the BS website and all I can find is this;

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/about-us/introducing-the-revision-of-the-core-bss-examination-checking-procedures/

 

many thanks

When the ISO rule referred to above comes into effect, I'm pretty sure that the BSS will have to incorporate this into the regulations because of the RCD -- if only because insurers are likely to require it.

 

by the way ISO/TS 23625:2021 is also ratified and will be approved standard for RCD boats . in Europe the RCD has the force of law unlike ABYC

 

Unless it only applies in the EU and not the UK -- could this *finally* be a Brexit benefit? 😉

 

P.S. The full up-to-date ISO document costs about £60, here's an earlier version -- don't know what has changed, but this one doesn't seem to distinguish between LFP and other more dangerous chemistries... 😞

 

https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/samples/76438/9f817478349b4f4f8770642cb1748902/ISO-TS-23625-2021.pdf

Edited July 20, 2023 by IanD

[n-baj]

Many thanks IanD, sounds like nothing is concrete yet apart from the odd insurance company reacting. I guess the BS will run a consultation and might distinguish between lifepo4 and more dangerous batteries, or just lump them with lead acid requirements.
 

A friend is worried about his set up with the BS and mine is due in 2 years and I’ve just installed my lifepo4 and don’t fancy potential difficulties, however as there’s been nothing official from the BS (someone correct me if I’m wrong) and I’ve not heard a sausage from my insurers all I can do is just wait and see what happens, everything else is just speculation.