New Engine

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Missed the tongue in cheek smiley. 

Easy to misinterpret posts when this happens... 😉

 

The point is that almost all CCers are likely to be strongly against a "CC surcharge" for the obvious reason, plus the fact that the increase is undoubtedly partly motivated by CART trying to discourage and get more money out of the increasing number of "CMers" who are abusing the rules.

 

The "real CCers" who actually do what the "no home mooring" category was intended for are likely to suffer as a consequence, they'll pay the price for the bad behaviour of others... 😞

Edited March 7, 2023 by IanD

[LadyG]

42 minutes ago, IanD said:

Easy to misinterpret posts when this happens... 😉

 

The point is that almost all CCers are likely to be strongly against a "CC surcharge" for the obvious reason, plus the fact that the increase is undoubtedly partly motivated by CART trying to discourage and get more money out of the increasing number of "CMers" who are abusing the rules.

 

The "real CCers" who actually do what the "no home mooring" category was intended for are likely to suffer as a consequence, they'll pay the price for the bad behaviour of others... 😞

Maybe we could have cmer only licence, they would be allowed to transgress the 14day rule six times per year, re-defining navigation as at least a distance of one hundred miles per annum, and those who had no strikes get a refund, that way, I'd have a target

Frankly, a twenty mile rule is ridiculous, I consider I am pretty slow, I prefer it that way, but I generally cover twenty miles in seven relocations, that's fourteen weeks.

[dmr]

12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Maybe we could have cmer only licence, they would be allowed to transgress the 14day rule six times per year, re-defining navigation as at least a distance of one hundred miles per annum, and those who had no strikes get a refund, that way, I'd have a target

Frankly, a twenty mile rule is ridiculous, I consider I am pretty slow, I prefer it that way, but I generally cover twenty miles in seven relocations, that's fourteen weeks.

 

This is very close to the "Roving mooring permit" which came very close to  happening a few years ago, and would possibly solve a lot of the current problems. NBTA threatened a legal challenge and so CRT backed down as a win for the NBTA would likely have made winter moorings impossible too. The main argument against the RMP was "why should we pay for something when we can already do it for free".

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Maybe we could have cmer only licence, they would be allowed to transgress the 14day rule six times per year, re-defining navigation as at least a distance of one hundred miles per annum, and those who had no strikes get a refund, that way, I'd have a target

Frankly, a twenty mile rule is ridiculous, I consider I am pretty slow, I prefer it that way, but I generally cover twenty miles in seven relocations, that's fourteen weeks.

 

The reason that has not already been done is because C&RT do not the legal authority to do that. It would require a new Act of Parliament.

[Grassman]

On 06/03/2023 at 21:17, Tony1 said:

 

This is just a thought, but maybe worth a mention: the 'entry-level' 38bhp engines by beta and canaline come as standard with alternators that are not capable of producing high charging currents over a long period.

My domestic alternator is officially rated as 100 amps, but over an hour of charging it can only put out 35 amps at tickover revs. Any more output than that means it overheats.   

 

 

Would this be the same issue with a Canaline 42bhp engine?

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Grassman said:

Would this be the same issue with a Canaline 42bhp engine?

 

When considering his statement, please remember that he has omitted to say that he is charging a lithium bank, not lead acids. He has to externally limit the current because lithiums will take the full alternator output for hours on end. However large the alternator with lead acids, the charging current will start to drop within half an hour or so because the batteries themselves limit the charging current. Basically, there is no overheating issue with typical lead acid battery banks and standard alternators.

 

He has also not stated what temperature he thinks means overheating. Alternators do run very hot, if a car has been driven for many, miles with the headlamps, heated screens, seats, wipers heater blower all running then it will burn you if you put your hand on it.

 

[Grassman]

47 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

When considering his statement, please remember that he has omitted to say that he is charging a lithium bank, not lead acids. He has to externally limit the current because lithiums will take the full alternator output for hours on end. However large the alternator with lead acids, the charging current will start to drop within half an hour or so because the batteries themselves limit the charging current. Basically, there is no overheating issue with typical lead acid battery banks and standard alternators.

 

He has also not stated what temperature he thinks means overheating. Alternators do run very hot, if a car has been driven for many, miles with the headlamps, heated screens, seats, wipers heater blower all running then it will burn you if you put your hand on it.

 

 

Thanks Tony. I should have been more specific with my question. I'm considering having a new engine (Canaline 42). I currently have 4 x 110ah AGMs which should last another couple of years after which I plan to replace them with lithiums. If I go for the Canaline 42 is there anything regarding its specification that I should request be changed or added so it's as ready as possible to accommodate lithium batteries in future? Also, how does the Canaline 42 differ from the 38bhp in that respect, if at all?

 

I'm thinking alternator(s) but there could be other things too perhaps?  It's just that when the time comes would the standard alternators that the engine comes with be suited to lithiums or should I ask them to supply the engine with different ones? I don't want the expense of having to replace alternators on it that are only a couple of years old.

[Bee]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225276635377?hash=item347388a8f1:g:MjwAAOSwBKFgpoaF&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAsH0DnMQ%2Bw2xp%2BK1Z4O%2FphhcduZgJwyL0KBYt%2BZViENR2p9dsANT4YX6744ywdo%2F0lHwsXyQJzXnyFQulwM27DdERfKYvs0mBPuuCmdQvy7ydsMv65npcW3oL%2FK6MoViEc4saslEEUgKuIe4mdIYnTBM7pmeAQ%2FHmXOVSWPhV4g0DPY%2FRg6hxkSzepTNpikTvVzY9FH0Gd2EiGkalQVgot4zW%2FXZoQMHtet51kGorlN68|tkp%3ABk9SR66fqIjYYQ

Just an example of a Perkins engine, there are many more from many sources, somewhere there will be one identical to yours and the gearbox, manifolds, pumps, feet and much more will be a straight swap, that means all the wiring, plumbing and all the stuff that takes ages to re route, re make, cut and weld will just fit straight back together again otherwise it will be like trying to fit a Vauxhall engine into a Peugeot.

[john.k]

I dont like the 4/107/4/108 motors ,they are not dirct injection...........my prefernce would be  for a 3/152...easy start ,no need for glowplugs ...in fact it doent have them......and it probably makes the desired  chugga chugga sound..............these motors were last made around 2006,and parts are cheaper than dirt 

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, Bee said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225276635377?

Just an example of a Perkins engine, there are many more from many sources, somewhere there will be one identical to yours and the gearbox, manifolds, pumps, feet and much more will be a straight swap, that means all the wiring, plumbing and all the stuff that takes ages to re route, re make, cut and weld will just fit straight back together again otherwise it will be like trying to fit a Vauxhall engine into a Peugeot.

 

^^^ This ^^^

 

I don't think anyone else so far has stressed just how much extra work it is to fit a different engine, compared to another engine the same. I would not be surprised if, by the time it was finished, the bill to supply and fit a brand new <not Perkins> engine hits £10k, while the bill to fit a re-built identical Perkins 4017, including the cost of a rebuild, might be £3k less. 

 

Or if you can find a second hand 4107 in good nick, fitting it might only cost a £k or two. This is why people keep discussing what engine you have now.

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by MtB

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, Grassman said:

 

Thanks Tony. I should have been more specific with my question. I'm considering having a new engine (Canaline 42). I currently have 4 x 110ah AGMs which should last another couple of years after which I plan to replace them with lithiums. If I go for the Canaline 42 is there anything regarding its specification that I should request be changed or added so it's as ready as possible to accommodate lithium batteries in future? Also, how does the Canaline 42 differ from the 38bhp in that respect, if at all?

 

I'm thinking alternator(s) but there could be other things too perhaps?  It's just that when the time comes would the standard alternators that the engine comes with be suited to lithiums or should I ask them to supply the engine with different ones? I don't want the expense of having to replace alternators on it that are only a couple of years old.

 

As the charging requirements of lithiums are very different to LAs, for instance lithiums do not take well to continual charging once they are "full" and voltage is a poor indication of state of charge, you will almost certainly need new equipment when fitting lithiums. In two years time, there may be alternator controllers specially designed for lithium charging, rather than designing and building your own like @nicknorman or cobbling together existing equipment and altering its settings. Tony1 is correct that a larger alternator will be more suitable for lithiums because it still gives higher output when derated to prevent heat damage.

 

I would spend any spare money on solar rather than a larger alternator for now, and be prepared to spend several hundred pounds on charge control and monitoring equipment at the time you fit lithiums.

[Tony1]

30 minutes ago, Grassman said:

 

Thanks Tony. I should have been more specific with my question. I'm considering having a new engine (Canaline 42). I currently have 4 x 110ah AGMs which should last another couple of years after which I plan to replace them with lithiums. If I go for the Canaline 42 is there anything regarding its specification that I should request be changed or added so it's as ready as possible to accommodate lithium batteries in future? Also, how does the Canaline 42 differ from the 38bhp in that respect, if at all?

 

I'm thinking alternator(s) but there could be other things too perhaps?  It's just that when the time comes would the standard alternators that the engine comes with be suited to lithiums or should I ask them to supply the engine with different ones? I don't want the expense of having to replace alternators on it that are only a couple of years old.

 

Yes, Tony is correct in that my reservations about the 38hp engine alternators are only relevant to a possible future move to install lithium batteries, as I mentioned in my first post. 

 

Whether you have the 38 or the 42, you will still need a way to limit the current draw from the alternator if you install lithiums. Some people use the 'long piece of wire' technique, but as you'll know, the ideal world option is an alternator controller like the mastervolt/alphapro.

If I were speccing a new engine myself, knowing that I will always have lithiums, I would insist on one of these devices being installed. 

 

In terms of choosing an alternator, I think the canaline 42 comes with a domestic alternator rated at 175 amps. However, I have their 100 amp model, and at tickover it cant put out more than 35-40 amps before its temp goes above 100 degrees. If the 175 amp model is similar, your maximum charging rate at tickover will be about 80 amps, which is decent- but you can probably do better. 

Ed Shiers website mentions a variety of good quality alternators he has installed, and there is Nick of this parish who has a very powerful alternator. 

 

Again, personally speaking, if I was spending 8 grand on a brand new engine, I would also consider asking them to replace the standard 175 amp alternator with a top quality model that will put out 120 amps or so on a continuous basis. 

 

In real terms the difference between the alternators on the canaline 38 and 42 is that if you are out cruising (and thus frequently at tickover), the 38hp model cant output more than 35 amps before it starts getting hot. If I rev up to 1300rpm it can safely put out maybe 48 amps, but I do feel like I'm pushing its capabilities a bit when doing that for an hour at a time- but so far so good, and it now two years in, touch wood etc.

 

PS - Everyone seems to have a different view of how hot is too hot. Since the alternator used to run at about 50-60 degrees with the lead acids, I decided to use 100 degrees as my 'comfort limit' when charging the lithiums. When it got over that temp I deemed it to be getting hot enough to potentially start causing damage and shortening the lifespan of the thing.

 

PPS- I'm sure the canalines are fine and I'm not having a go at them, but the beta engines dont cost much more, and they do seem to be a bit more positively regarded.

Again, if I were getting a new engine I'd probably pick a beta over a canaline, if the cost difference was not too great.  

 

ETA- just rad Tony B's post above and I couldn't agree more- solar is a great investment for a liveaboard. Since roughly mid-Feb, I've only had to run my engine to charge on about one day in 5, and within another few weeks there will be no need at all to run the engine for charging- it takes a couple of years but the panels definitely pay for themselves in terms of diesel costs, servicing, engine wear etc.. 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Tony1

[john.k]

Im pretty sure the 4/107 is directly interchangeable with a 4/108 ,which is a much more modern motor .......last made around 2006 ,I think ........Be aware that all the later Perkins tier 4 emissions /OHC motors are a POS,and changed every year ,so parts are non existant.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Again, personally speaking, if I was spending 8 grand on a brand new engine, I would also consider asking them to replace the standard 175 amp alternator with a top quality model that will put out 120 amps or so on a continuous basis. 

 

Whilst easy to write in an offhand way, would this not also perhaps turn from an £8K brand new engine into an £11k brand new engine, given the price of such alternators and alternator controllers?

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by MtB
Fix me grammar.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, MtB said:

 

Whilst easy to write in an offhand way, this would not also perhaps turn from an £8K brand new engine into an £11k brand new engine, given the price of such alternators and alternator controllers?

 

 

One could also legitimately suggest a water cooled alternator as well, but that increases the price even more. it is all a cost-benefit thing.

[MtB]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

One could also legitimately suggest a water cooled alternator as well, but that increases the price even more. it is all a cost-benefit thing.

 

 

Yes. I quite like the 'long length of wire' method costing five quid for limiting the charge current from my own alternator, to an £1,800 Balmar! 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

One could also legitimately suggest a water cooled alternator as well, but that increases the price even more. it is all a cost-benefit thing.

 

My car has a water cooled 175 amp alternator which recently 'gave up the ghost' It cost over £500 to replace and (apparently) you need to drain down all the cooling system and a fair bit on 'non-alternator' work to get them in and working correctly.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

My car has a water cooled 175 amp alternator which recently 'gave up the ghost' It cost over £500 to replace and (apparently) you need to drain down all the cooling system and a fair bit on 'non-alternator' work to get them in and working correctly.

Why on earth would a car need a 175A alternator? What is it charging ffs.

[Tony1]

18 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Whilst easy to write in an offhand way, would this not also perhaps turn from an £8K brand new engine into an £11k brand new engine, given the price of such alternators and alternator controllers?

 

 

 

I definitely don't want to downplay the cost element, but for me personally, there are a couple of things to bear in mind. 

 

First is that getting the installer to do the replacement of alternators means you save some money as they can resell the original one. Installing a alphapro might cost up to £600, I guess there's no way round that. 

 

But the second thing is to consider the overall costs over say 10 years. 

If you can replace all your daily charge in one hour of engine running (with an alternator that delivers say 130 amps continuously), then your diesel bill for charging might be one third that of the canaline 38 owner who can only charge at 40 amps, and has to run his engine for 3 hours each day. 

 

Solar obviously changes the figures greatly, so if you were planning on getting lots of panels, you might then only have to worry about engine charging in winter. In that scenario a big alternator plus controller might look a bit less attractive, if the total bill is approaching £1000 or so. 

I was thinking of one of these things- would that do the job? 

https://shop.chastheboat.co.uk/products/mv-alpha-pro-iii-charge-regulator-for-alternators-3-step-with-m-bus-aq-m45513000

 

But having lived with one of those low end alternators for a couple of years on my engine, I feel I have to at least point out to the OP that they do have some serious limitations when it comes to lithium batteries, and the cost of a later upgrade (including new crank etc) would be at least double the cost of getting it done as part of the new engine install deal. 

 

I guess it all boils down to how much future proofing you are up for, and how much you like having lots of electricity. I'm quite partial to a few amps myself. 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Tony1

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Why on earth would a car need a 175A alternator? What is it charging ffs.

 

Apologies I quoted 175 amps in error.

 

Electrically heated front and back windows, heated seats, air-con, ................................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is actually 190 amps

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony1]

1 hour ago, Grassman said:

 

Thanks Tony. I should have been more specific with my question. I'm considering having a new engine (Canaline 42). I currently have 4 x 110ah AGMs which should last another couple of years after which I plan to replace them with lithiums. If I go for the Canaline 42 is there anything regarding its specification that I should request be changed or added so it's as ready as possible to accommodate lithium batteries in future? Also, how does the Canaline 42 differ from the 38bhp in that respect, if at all?

 

I'm thinking alternator(s) but there could be other things too perhaps?  It's just that when the time comes would the standard alternators that the engine comes with be suited to lithiums or should I ask them to supply the engine with different ones? I don't want the expense of having to replace alternators on it that are only a couple of years old.

 

Might be worth just reiterating Mike's suggestion, of buying a 38hp engine but getting the uprated poly vee crank fitted before the install. 

When I looked at it, the poly vee crank kit was only about £300, but it depends how much they want to charge for the labour of swapping it in.

If the bill starts climbing towards £1000, maybe the 42hp model makes more sense, as it already comes with a better alternator, and you might only have to pay for a controller when you install lithiums.

And as Ian pointed out, the 38hp engine is not said to be ideally suited to for driving powerful alternators.

It will do a job, and I've had 90 amps continuously from mine when running at 1300rpm, but there is that nagging doubt that I might be pushing it a bit- and that might become more of a concern if you start looking at 120 amp plus alternators. I must point out that I don't know, this is just guesswork, but the 42 hp model was designed to be capable of driving a more powerful alternator- so if its affordable, it seems the safer bet maybe? 

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

34 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Might be worth just reiterating Mike's suggestion, of buying a 38hp engine but getting the uprated poly vee crank fitted before the install. 

When I looked at it, the poly vee crank kit was only about £300, but it depends how much they want to charge for the labour of swapping it in.

If the bill starts climbing towards £1000, maybe the 42hp model makes more sense, as it already comes with a better alternator, and you might only have to pay for a controller when you install lithiums.

And as Ian pointed out, the 38hp engine is not said to be ideally suited to for driving powerful alternators.

It will do a job, and I've had 90 amps continuously from mine when running at 1300rpm, but there is that nagging doubt that I might be pushing it a bit- and that might become more of a concern if you start looking at 120 amp plus alternators. I must point out that I don't know, this is just guesswork, but the 42 hp model was designed to be capable of driving a more powerful alternator- so if its affordable, it seems the safer bet maybe? 

 

 

IIRC with Beta engines the crankshaft pulley mounting arrangements (especially for polyvee pulleys) are much more robust for the 43 (and above) than the 38, which is why Beta allow much bigger and dual alternators on the Beta 43.

 

When I was looking at this a couple of years ago, the cost to upgrade to 2 24V 100A alternators (including two polyvee pulleys) on a new Beta 43 was only about £600 -- much cheaper than a huge Balmar alternator or a Travelpower, and similar output (about 5kW) -- which pretty means using LFP batteries, LA won't like this unless you have a massive bank of 2V traction cells.

 

But with big alternators Beta say you must run at a minimum of 1200rpm for charging to avoid possible engine damage, and it's pretty much essential to have an external alternator controller (e.g. Wakespeed WS-500) to pull back the charging current at idle, which stops the revs being dragged down and also prevents any potential damage -- see below for how much difference this makes.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by IanD

[Grassman]

Thanks for your helpful and thought provoking replies and I now feel better equipped for deciding what to do.