IanD Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said: ... but CRT is swimming in money - £1.14 billion according to the last annual report. And we all know what happens to businesses who sell off capital assets which bring in long-term income for short-term profits, don't we? 😞 Edited February 25, 2023 by IanD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwellian Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 19 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said: What will come as a suprise to many that CRT is a government "department". It was classified as a public corporation in 2015. It isn't now as can be seen here https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan(nb Albert) Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 45 minutes ago, Orwellian said: It isn't now as can be seen here https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations It is in the latest Public Sector Classification Guide which was issued on 31 January. CRT was classified as a public body in September 2015 backdated to its formation in 2012. It is classified as a "public non-financial corporation" as it is judged to be under government control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwellian Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 41 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said: It is in the latest Public Sector Classification Guide which was issued on 31 January. CRT was classified as a public body in September 2015 backdated to its formation in 2012. It is classified as a "public non-financial corporation" as it is judged to be under government control. Thanks for that information from the ONS which is very interesting. British Waterways was a 'public corporation' and government control over it was greater than it currently has over CRT. If DEFRA decide not to continue providing funds after 2027 I wonder if this classification will continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemShaun Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 Come on now, who has the full details? if nobody does have the details then why are we even playing the game of god? why is my questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan(nb Albert) Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, Orwellian said: Thanks for that information from the ONS which is very interesting. British Waterways was a 'public corporation' and government control over it was greater than it currently has over CRT. If DEFRA decide not to continue providing funds after 2027 I wonder if this classification will continue? For the classification to be recinded requires various documents that give control to government to be altered. Defra is currently trying to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwellian Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said: For the classification to be recinded requires various documents that give control to government to be altered. Defra is currently trying to do this. Having read more of the ONS information it seems it is mainly about government financial accounting than any meaningful functional control over CRT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: In their last big consulation they proposed a CCer should pay 2.5 times a 'standard licence' so now that 'times are hard' I can easily envisage a 3x multiplier. And, yet again, the idea was shot down in the first phase. It was a discussion starting point, not an idea that really was expected to happen. Please stop quoting this excerpt without explaining it was scrapped if you're not just trying to cause strife. I recently provided you with the links to the update to that consultation, the raw results of the consultation and the final outcome. Quote these instead please. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 40 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said: And, yet again, the idea was shot down in the first phase. It was a discussion starting point, not an idea that really was expected to happen. Please stop quoting this excerpt without explaining it was scrapped if you're not just trying to cause strife. I recently provided you with the links to the update to that consultation, the raw results of the consultation and the final outcome. Quote these instead please. And, yet despite the 'charging by beam' not being in the final outcome - what happened ? Yes, correct, charging by beam was introduced a few years later. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan(nb Albert) Posted February 25, 2023 Report Share Posted February 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Orwellian said: Having read more of the ONS information it seems it is mainly about government financial accounting than any meaningful functional control over CRT. It is justification for appearing in the Public Sector Classification Guide that is important to Defra, I would suggest. A charity is controlled by its trustees but government are saying the Secretary of State has ultimate control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Marshall Posted February 26, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 13 hours ago, IanD said: And we all know what happens to businesses who sell off capital assets which bring in long-term income for short-term profits, don't we? 😞 They get praised by the government for their "investment". It's why hedge funds own most of Britain, and why most of the businesses they own shut down after being milked dry. And why hedge fund owners get very rich. And, currently, run the country. So it's just the new British way of doing things. Luckily, the canals have got lots of hedges, if not much waterside property any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwellian Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 8 hours ago, Allan(nb Albert) said: It is justification for appearing in the Public Sector Classification Guide that is important to Defra, I would suggest. A charity is controlled by its trustees but government are saying the Secretary of State has ultimate control. To be accurate it is the ONS that is saying they are and they state they follow lots of national and international quidance. https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/economicstatisticsclassifications/ukeconomicstatisticssectorandtransactionclassificationstheclassificationprocess#background I have tried searching for the information on how they decided the classification for CRT but without success. I agree it seems odd given all the effort that was put in by BW to escape from Government control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 52 minutes ago, Orwellian said: To be accurate it is the ONS that is saying they are and they state they follow lots of national and international quidance. https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/economicstatisticsclassifications/ukeconomicstatisticssectorandtransactionclassificationstheclassificationprocess#background I have tried searching for the information on how they decided the classification for CRT but without success. I agree it seems odd given all the effort that was put in by BW to escape from Government control. I don't think it was BW trying to escape from government control so much as the government wanting to get the canals off their books -- and since they couldn't realistically privatise them, hiving them off to a charity so that making the books balance was *their* problem was the next best thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwellian Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 7 minutes ago, IanD said: I don't think it was BW trying to escape from government control so much as the government wanting to get the canals off their books -- and since they couldn't realistically privatise them, hiving them off to a charity so that making the books balance was *their* problem was the next best thing... You're wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 1 minute ago, Orwellian said: You're wrong. Go on then, show me -- evidence please, not just your opinion... 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwellian Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 It would be pointless just like all the discussion about boat licence charges. You really should get a life. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan(nb Albert) Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 44 minutes ago, Orwellian said: To be accurate it is the ONS that is saying they are and they state they follow lots of national and international quidance. https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/economicstatisticsclassifications/ukeconomicstatisticssectorandtransactionclassificationstheclassificationprocess#backgroundn I have tried searching for the information on how they decided the classification for CRT but without success. I agree it seems odd given all the effort that was put in by BW to escape from Government control. Whilst information is available on the general process of determination, I don't think this extends to individual cases. I do remember a complaint being made to the Charity Commission in 2013(?) that CRT was a "creature of government" and should not have been registered as a charity. Whilst the name of the complainant was redacted, I think it the late Nigel Moore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 1 minute ago, Allan(nb Albert) said: Whilst information is available on the general process of determination, I don't think this extends to individual cases. I do remember a complaint being made to the Charity Commission in 2013(?) that CRT was a "creature of government" and should not have been registered as a charity. Whilst the name of the complainant was redacted, I think it the late Nigel Moore. More than likely I would think, it's such a shame he died early he had a depth of knowledge that is missing today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan(nb Albert) Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 (edited) 51 minutes ago, IanD said: I don't think it was BW trying to escape from government control so much as the government wanting to get the canals off their books -- and since they couldn't realistically privatise them, hiving them off to a charity so that making the books balance was *their* problem was the next best thing... Wrong. British Waterways started its journey to escape from government control in 2002/03 by publishing its desire to be free of government financial support. Government came on board about 2009/10. 15 minutes ago, peterboat said: More than likely I would think, it's such a shame he died early he had a depth of knowledge that is missing today I regret not asking Nigel if he was the complainant. We all need the benefit of hindsight earlier! Edited February 26, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 11 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said: British Waterways started its journey to escape from government control in 2002/03 by publishing its desire to be free of government financial support. That was one monumental error if ever I saw one! What WERE they thinking of?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan(nb Albert) Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 16 minutes ago, MtB said: That was one monumental error if ever I saw one! What WERE they thinking of?! I guess Hales and Evans, who were both new in position, wanted to show the world how good they were. Hales, in particular, had a big black mark against him having been recently kicked out of Allied Domeq for failing to make money on its 3,500 pubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwellian Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 50 minutes ago, MtB said: That was one monumental error if ever I saw one! What WERE they thinking of?! This man didn't think so https://www.civilserviceworld.com/in-depth/article/interview-robin-evans 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan(nb Albert) Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 34 minutes ago, Orwellian said: This man didn't think so https://www.civilserviceworld.com/in-depth/article/interview-robin-evans Neither did the other one - https://quarterly.blog.gov.uk/2014/10/15/trust-in-the-people-the-canal-and-river-trust/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwellian Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 The 'third man' was of course Nigel Johnson the Legal Director and I believe that after he and Evans left CRT following their 'success' they were then engaged to advise on the similar creation of what is now English Heritage. Dean Davies is still at CRT. I wonder if he's still as enthusiastic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudds Lad Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 Sat with my better half and did the box ticking this morning. Have to say a lot of the questions felt like Hobson’s Choice and you were just left scrabbling around for the least worst outcome. Anyway, i’m sure it’s all irellevant, they know what they will do and a consultation is only being done so they can say they held one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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