Definitive paperwork required to purchase a Widebeam for safety compliance

[NF71]

Is there one source of truth to the above please.

I do not want to buy a boat without the correct paperwork.

 

1. Boat less than 5 years old

2. Boat older than 5 years

3. Converted Sailaway

 

Please direct me to a thread if this has been answered.

 

Thank you

 

Neil

 

 

 

 

 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, NF71 said:

Is there one source of truth to the above please.

 

Nope.

 

Hope that helps....

 

 

 

Welcome to the forum by the way!

[NF71]

I thought that may be the case.......perhaps someone will give some good advice🙂

[MtB]

1 minute ago, NF71 said:

I thought that may be the case.......perhaps someone will give some good advice🙂

 

 

My best advice is use the search function to find the dozens of threads on this exact subject. Find it in the top right hand corner of every page on this site.

 

Then spend a day or so reading and inwardly digesting them all! 

 

 

[NF71]

Perhaps I am missing the point of  forums - I understood them to be a way of getting to the facts and experience of others fast - but hey ho, Perhaps someone in the know can help,

 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, NF71 said:

Perhaps I am missing the point of  forums - I understood them to be a way of getting to the facts and experience of others fast - but hey ho, Perhaps someone in the know can help,

 

 

Its FAR quicker (and better manners) to read what has already been written on the subject than to pitch up out of nowhere expecting people here to write it ll out again for you. 

 

From the way you've framed your OP I'd guess you've already googled this quite a bit and are fully aware of the complexity of your questions. 

 

 

[NF71]

I am not wanting to get into a conversation like this. I joined this for help. If your opinion is there is not one source of truth then so be it.

I will await to see if anyone else has an opinion. Thank you for yours.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, NF71 said:

Perhaps I am missing the point of  forums - I understood them to be a way of getting to the facts and experience of others fast - but hey ho, Perhaps someone in the know can help,

 

 

Unfortunately you have encountered one of the forum folk who is notorious for being helpful but only when he is in the right mood.

 

And known for being particularly unhelpull to new members.

 

Stick around and somebody who can help will be along shortly.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by M_JG

[NF71]

Thank you🙂 

 

I have realised it is a can of worms. I come from a very compliant industry and sport and am used to process and adherence to specification. This is clearly not. A good old flow chart would be good!

I don't want to pay 150K + for a boat that does not have the correct documentation and then not be able to sell it on at some stage.

(I was deeply concerned when I looked at one boat and the wiring had not had the correct cable  thickness used)  Then looked at a sailaway conversion just 5 years old ....

Anyway I will continue in my quest for knowledge in a forumn of what so far has been an amazing group of people. (part of the reason for taking the plunge).

Thank you.

Neil

 

[Tony Brooks]

It must have a current BSS certificate unless it is less than four years old, in that case the relevant RCD/RCR paperwork stands in for the BSS.

 

As soon as the RCD/RCR is mentioned you will get a lot of conflicting advice but in general post 1997? boat shoudl have been built to the RCD/RCR specifications. There were exemptions for self fitted out craft if sold 5 years after being put into service but I am not sure if the latest revision carried this exemption on.

 

The RCR/RCD now also comes into play if major modifications are made to a boat.

 

It is illegal to sell a boat that is subject to the RCD/RCR without the correct paperwork. It is not 9as far as I know) illegal to buy one.

 

The chances of getting prosecuted for such a sale of an inland boat are small to almost non-existent but selling it is still an offense.

 

Now stand by for  slew of posters saying they ignore the RCD/RCR so I would advise you to study the EU's Recreational Craft Directive and the UK Recreational Craft Regulations. and decide the risks you are happy to take yourself.

 

The BSS is no guarantee the boat is safe when bought and neither is the RCD/RCR - think MOT for cars.

 

 

[NF71]

Thank you. This is very helpful indeed. It seems that really to be pretty safe you need to buy a 'manufactured' boat without too many mods or ad ons.

 

One additional question if you buy a boat privately and you want a survey but the boat  has to be lifted or dry docked - if it proves to have damage and you don't buy it I presume you as the purchaser have to take that hit - unless you agree up front. I have seen 2 boats that I would want a survey but they are in the water.....

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, NF71 said:

Thank you. This is very helpful indeed. It seems that really to be pretty safe you need to buy a 'manufactured' boat without too many mods or ad ons.

 

One additional question if you buy a boat privately and you want a survey but the boat  has to be lifted or dry docked - if it proves to have damage and you don't buy it I presume you as the purchaser have to take that hit - unless you agree up front. I have seen 2 boats that I would want a survey but they are in the water.....

 

You pay for the survey and any lifting/slipping/dry docking. Hopefully if any damage is done at that time the operators insurance would cover it.

 

Getting your deposit back is another thing altogether. Read and understand the contract before you sign it. I got the (hire fleet) vendor to specify that the deposit would be returned if the survey threw up problems that prevented me buying it. I understand often you forfeit your deposit if you fail to complete the purchase, unless the problems cost more than XX% of the purchase price. It is a question of |"let the buyer beware".

[Momac]

 

9 minutes ago, NF71 said:

Thank you. This is very helpful indeed. It seems that really to be pretty safe you need to buy a 'manufactured' boat without too many mods or ad ons.

 

One additional question if you buy a boat privately and you want a survey but the boat  has to be lifted or dry docked - if it proves to have damage and you don't buy it I presume you as the purchaser have to take that hit - unless you agree up front. I have seen 2 boats that I would want a survey but they are in the water.....

Yes the buyer pays for the lift out and the survey

Be prepared for faults to be found ad to renegotiate the price if the faults are significant

[NF71]

Thank you

🙂

[Paul C]

Survey can go 3 ways (the first being rare)

 

1. Survey done, costs (say) £500 inc slipping or lifting the boat, no (or very minor) issues found. You keep that survey information private (don't tell the seller.....you paid for the survey) and you buy a great boat.

2. Survey done, reveals the boat needs (say) £3000 of work, you show the survey to the seller and get £3000 knocked off the price. It might turn out that £1500 is needed and the rest is DIY issues etc.

3. Survey done, reveals the boat is a barely-floating wreck or ticking time bomb, you walk (or run) in the other direction.

 

The guys who say you don't need a survey need to rely on the gift of the gab to get that (2) £3000 discount, having a survey in your hands makes it pretty easy (unless there's a queue of other buyers....but that's a different story); or they have sufficient experience to see for themselves anyway; or just feel lucky. Its very unlikely a seller would let a buyer dry dock a boat and scrape bits of blacking off with a grinder, but that's exactly what my surveyor did when I bought a boat and yes, I got a bunch of money off with the faults found, one of which was the propeller wasn't attached properly.....first (or maybe 10th) time in reverse.......ping!!

[roland elsdon]

Just bear in mind a certificate and a survey are like an mot. Valid for the time they are issued.

Surveys are subject to conditions( the boat was on bostocks i could  not see that bit) , and there is no dismantling.

Most boats have owner modifications of various quality, often electrical.

 

My last boat had huge amounts of work post purchase, and I also did huge amounts after we bought it. ( gas electrics etc). The survey pointed me in the right direction.

A 2 year old survey by the previous buyer didnt know left from right, and failed to observe the need for 28 feet of refooting, which we had done before purchase. If we had relied on that we would have had to pay for that work .

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, NF71 said:

 

(I was deeply concerned when I looked at one boat and the wiring had not had the correct cable  thickness used)

Canal boat building is a cottage industry, and even the volume builders do not produce long lines of identical craft to a standard design and specification. So there will always be variations from one boat to the next. Although the RCD/RCR specify all sorts of standards there is zero enforcement with boatbuilders self certifying compliance. So don't be surprised when things like undersized wiring turn up.

[blackrose]

9 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

Unfortunately you have encountered one of the forum folk who is notorious for being helpful but only when he is in the right mood.

 

And known for being particularly unhelpull to new members.

 

And widebeam owners...

 

MtB is giving lectures on manners now! 🤣

[GRLMK38]

13 hours ago, NF71 said:

Is there one source of truth to the above please.

I do not want to buy a boat without the correct paperwork.

 

1. Boat less than 5 years old

2. Boat older than 5 years

3. Converted Sailaway

 

Please direct me to a thread if this has been answered.

 

Thank you

 

Neil

 

This would be a good starting point ...... https://www.abnb.co.uk/useful-information/faq-rcd

 

[Barneyp]

14 hours ago, NF71 said:

Thank you. This is very helpful indeed. It seems that really to be pretty safe you need to buy a 'manufactured' boat without too many mods or ad ons.

 

 

Most "manufactured" boats are built by small volume producers and each one is built for an individual customer who will have their own specification, the builder then self certifies that the boat meets the relevant legislation and issues the paperwork (RCD etc).

 

So if you buy a brand-new or nearly new boat with all the paperwork it is likely you will have met the bureaucratic requirements.

 

Whether this makes you any "safer" is questionable, it doesn't protect you from a legal perspective because know one is going to check this paperwork exists, and you are not required to have it ( until you sell the boat). From a physical safety point of view the paperwork is done by the builder after they've built the boat, what's more relevant is the quality of the original build, how well it's been maintained - a survey and BSS will help show this.

 

By insisting on having all the correct paperwork you are potentially excluding a huge proportion of the second hand boats available for little or no gain.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

Whether this makes you any "safer" is questionable, it doesn't protect you from a legal perspective because know one is going to check this paperwork exists, and you are not required to have it ( until you sell the boat). From a physical safety point of view the paperwork is done by the builder after they've built the boat, what's more relevant is the quality of the original build, how well it's been maintained - a survey and BSS will help show this.

 

 

Just answers to a couple of the points you raise :

 

1) There have been examples of builders being taken to court for making false declarations.

2) Most (all ?) self fitouts are not in compliance with the RCR requirements as the cost of getting all of the standards is many £000's so no one bothers.

3) There are an increasing number of boat brokers which will not sell your boat without the required paperwork. (several discussed on this forum in the last year or so).

4) A BSS is in no way an indication that the boat complies with the RCR - The BSS checks are taken from the RCR but are a miniscule fraction of the full RCR requirements.

5) The vast majority of 'commercially built' (factory / company) boats are not built in compliance with the RCR despite the company signing paperwork to say they are fully compliant.

6) The RCD was amended in 2017 to now be applicable 'for life'. It never 'expires' and any changes to the boat (particularly Engines / Electrics / gas) should be reassessed and certified by an Examiner under the PCR (Post Construction Regulations)

7) If you find an RCR fault in the boat (example - the wrong type of glass has been used) and the boat is certified under the RCR you can take the builder to court and/or get them to rectify the fault. (again - examples are available)

 

 

On this forum there are two distinct 'camps' when it comes to the relevance of the RCR and 'boat papers' in general.

 

1) You need the paperwork and certification to be able to sell the boat legally.

 

2) No one cares, you won't get caught so just ignore it.

 

Only you can decide which 'camp' you wish to be in.

 

Ideally the boat-papers should consist of :

 

The RCR certification

The RCR Owners manual

A 'VAT Paid' certificate 

The original bill of sale.

All subsequent bills of sale.

Current BSS

 

Nice to have are copies of service records etc etc etc.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Paul C]

I would say there is another factor. If a boat builder is diligent enough to comply with the RCD regs etc, somewhat onerous as they are, they are probably also quite well organised and have an attention to detail in the actual boat construction aspects too. 
 

Similarly this could also apply further down the supply chain , eg to brokers and other sellers.

 

And more relevant, if it’s a self-build from an individual who started out with a sailaway, they have obviously been more more diligent if they have also obtained the RCD.

 

The caveat is that the RCD (for canal boats) is self certified, so there is no 3rd party oversight. It’s one aspect of many which should be considered when buying a boat, but for a newbie it’s helpful and has some weight.

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I would say there is another factor. If a boat builder is diligent enough to comply with the RCD regs etc, somewhat onerous as they are, they are probably also quite well organised and have an attention to detail in the actual boat construction aspects too. 

 

A forum member is a surveyor / RCD examiner and has (at the last count) been involved in 4 court actions against Narrowboat builders for non-compliance.

 

I'd 'sorta' agree with you, but just taking one example of an RCD requirement - the fuel tank MUST have an inspection hatch.

How many Narrow / Wide boats have you seen that have one ?

 

BS EN ISO 21487:2012

 

Each tank shall have an inspection hatch of at least 150 mm diameter. The inspection hatch shall, as a rule, be located on top of the tank, but for diesel oil tanks it may also be on the tank side. There shall be access to the inspection hatch when the tank is in position.

 

 

From 2017 :

 

The directive now requires the means of reboarding to be: accessible to or deployable by a person in the water unaided.

[NF71]

Thank you. I am beginning to understand the reality of the situation.😀

[pearley]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Each tank shall have an inspection hatch of at least 150 mm diameter. The inspection hatch shall, as a rule, be located on top of the tank, but for diesel oil tanks it may also be on the tank side. There shall be access to the inspection hatch when the tank is in position.

 

From 2017 :

 

The directive now requires the means of reboarding to be: accessible to or deployable by a person in the water unaided.

I have two fuel tanks. Conventional one across the stern for propulsion and one across the boat in front of the engine for the gennie. Had to insist on an inspection hatch for this. Got one that was over engineered. I expected a plate held down with a few bolts. Got hinged one which looks good but leaked the first time I filled the tank to the top.

 

The usual means of boarding is a couple of steps welded at the stern but using them is actually very difficult. Our neighbour went for a swim in the river this summer but found it near impossible to get out using these steps. He now has a boarding ladder to hang down into the water.