No survey, am I an idiot

[Phoebeg543]

Hi all. I'm just looking for a sense check really, I have a feeling you'll just say that it's up to me and you don't know the condition of a boat without a survey so you can't advise but basically I'm mulling over buying a 30ft 1971 (definitely 70s but it might be later) NB. The seller is willing to go to 12k for a quicker sale at my suggestion (it was 14k and the quicker sale is a logistics thing with various holidays between us)  but that would be buying without a survey. I almost bought a boat last year but the survey came back poor and I dipped out but that one was £30,000. If say the hull was bust and I discovered that when I went to black it in a few months time (it hasn't been done in 4 years) how much might I be looking at for re/overplating? Does it seem like a good shout at this price with potential work or do you think it'll be more headache/wallet ache than it's worth? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the matter!

[BEngo]

Who built it?  What thickness was it when new?  What do you know about it since build?

 

1971 to 2022 is a long time for steel in water, and unless it has been really well looked after £12k for a 30 ft boat of that age seems like an awful lot, even in today's market.

 

Guessing the price of work unseen is a  mug's game, but I would expect that you could easily spend  £5k to £10k if a lot of plating is needed.  It is nearly  all skilled labour, if done well,  and that is not cheap.

 

N

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

My forty footer needed a complete new bottom and sides to above the waterline, costing nine grand. I'd be a bit surprised if a 1970 boat hadn't already been replated at some time? Mine's mid sixties, I think, and was rebottomed previously twenty-odd years ago.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Arthur Marshall

[MtB]

53 minutes ago, Phoebeg543 said:

Hi all. I'm just looking for a sense check really, I have a feeling you'll just say that it's up to me and you don't know the condition of a boat without a survey so you can't advise but basically I'm mulling over buying a 30ft 1971 (definitely 70s but it might be later) NB. The seller is willing to go to 12k for a quicker sale at my suggestion (it was 14k and the quicker sale is a logistics thing with various holidays between us)  but that would be buying without a survey. I almost bought a boat last year but the survey came back poor and I dipped out but that one was £30,000. If say the hull was bust and I discovered that when I went to black it in a few months time (it hasn't been done in 4 years) how much might I be looking at for re/overplating? Does it seem like a good shout at this price with potential work or do you think it'll be more headache/wallet ache than it's worth? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the matter!

 

 

This mostly depends on your own personal circumstances. Would the loss of £12k be a life-changing event or is it spare money in your ISA earning 0.001% interest per year? Or something in between?

 

Are you planning to live on this as your only home or will it be a hobby boat for messing about in? 

 

Are you lucky or unlucky at cards? Because this is a pure gamble. It could be a cracking good boat or a near colander, and probably neither of you knows for sure, so are you up for taking a chance? Thing is, getting it surveyed will cost best part of 10% of the purchase price so I'd be inclined to take an informed punt. When was it last taken out for blacking? If recently, the seller just might have been told it is due a lot of repairs soon and to just black it and get rid. How good are you at reading people and the subtle signs of a well (or not so well) maintained boat?

 

No need to answer that lot on here, but thinking through these points might help clarify your thinking and make a decision clearer.

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

If it has been blacked recently, find out where and go and see if the yard remember it. If it's awful they will, if it's perfect for it's age they will, if the don't remember it, it's probably ok.

PS, I bought mine without a survey, so may be biased...

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If it has been blacked recently, find out where and go and see if the yard remember it. If it's awful they will, if it's perfect for it's age they will, if the don't remember it, it's probably ok.

PS, I bought mine without a survey, so may be biased...

 

 

I sold a boat earlier this year without a survey, and priced to sell without all the messing about and waiting that a survey involves. So the second person to view it bought it, taking a gamble. Neither of us knows if he got a bargain or a lemon and probably won't until he gets it docked for blacking. 

 

So far, it hasn't sunk.

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by buccaneer66
language

[Barneyp]

What condition is the rest of the boat in?

Is the engine ok, does it start first time and sound ok, any kind of service history (even just an envelope full of receipts)

What's the fit out like, any signs of damp or mould, does the cooker work, do the taps work etc.

What's the paint work like.

 

If everything else is ok and you buy the boat and then have to spend another £15,000 on overplating, you will have spent £27,000 on a reasonable condition 30 foot boat.

If you need to repaint the outside, fix leaky windows, replace mouldy and damp ply lining, overhaul/replace the engine and gearbox, etc. The £27,000 could turn into £37,000 or more.

[Bee]

Cor, that's a bit elderl;y. Back in those days there were some pretty basic hulls and almost certaily it would have been1/4" bottom, 3/16" sides. Nothing wrong with that but again. in those days people often didn't bother to paint the bottom and anyway it would be painted in bitumastic paint which is not the best. .It has almost certainly been overplated to some degree and it will need more. It is not something that I would bother with to be honest.

[Tony1]

 

I can totally understand the excitement and impulse to buy a boat, that might be pushing you mentally towards pulling the trigger on this boat, but I would strongly urge you not to rush in, unless you can afford to lose most of the money, and/or you have another 15k in reserve to fix any major issues, as people have explained above. Its a huge risk.

The problem is that a full survey might cost almost 10% of the price of the boat, so it looks like a really bad deal, but the truth is that the boat could very easily be a disaster waiting for you to step into it. Even worse, you can't sue a surveyor if they miss things, so even a survey is no guarantee. 

This is a bit of a left-field suggestion, but worth putting out there in case you havent thought about it yet: If you're ok with a 30ft boat, why not look for a GRP (glass fibre) boat of say 27- 32ft? You'll get just as much living space as on a 30ft steel narrowboat, but at least with a GRP boat, rust damage or pitting wont be an issue (although the hull could still be damaged and will still need surveying).  

 

This example is only 26ft, so probably not enough space to live on comfortably, but it'll give you an idea of the sort of thing I'm suggesting:

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/viking-cruisers-26-for-sale/711168

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

This is a bit of a left-field suggestion, but worth putting out there in case you havent thought about it yet: If you're ok with a 30ft boat, why not look for a GRP (glass fibre) boat of say 27- 32ft? You'll get just as much living space as on a 30ft steel narrowboat, but at least with a GRP boat, rust damage or pitting wont be an issue (although the hull could still be damaged and will still need surveying).  

 

If "you" intend to insure this boat 'comprehensive'  then, for a boat of this age, the insurers will demand a survey anyway - so the £600 - £1000 for a survey is a non-negotiable expense.

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Phoebeg543 said:

Hi all. I'm just looking for a sense check really, I have a feeling you'll just say that it's up to me and you don't know the condition of a boat without a survey so you can't advise but basically I'm mulling over buying a 30ft 1971 (definitely 70s but it might be later) NB. The seller is willing to go to 12k for a quicker sale at my suggestion (it was 14k and the quicker sale is a logistics thing with various holidays between us)  but that would be buying without a survey. I almost bought a boat last year but the survey came back poor and I dipped out but that one was £30,000. If say the hull was bust and I discovered that when I went to black it in a few months time (it hasn't been done in 4 years) how much might I be looking at for re/overplating? Does it seem like a good shout at this price with potential work or do you think it'll be more headache/wallet ache than it's worth? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the matter!

I'm no expert, is it rusting along waterline ?

It it rusty all over?

Is the rust bad?

 

You could give it a good tap with a hammer above waterline, but will it stand a good thump below?

Does everything work 

Don't be soft, offer £10K, assuming it is insurable probably wont be insurable without a survey.

it it life defining cash or a gamble?

Edited September 14, 2022 by LadyG

[Arthur Marshall]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If "you" intend to insure this boat 'comprehensive'  then, for a boat of this age, the insurers will demand a survey anyway - so the £600 - £1000 for a survey is a non-negotiable expense.

Unless you're living on it, and it's your only home, I can't see the point of comp insurance. Mine's leisure, 3rd party since insurance was compulsory and none at all before that. Insurance is just licenced theft. RCR coverage does me, and stump up for anything else.

When I got mine, I had a friend who is not only an excellent engineer but was refurbishing an old working boat. I got him to come along and hit the hull with a hammer a few times. The boat cost me seven grand, has cost me another fifteen, probably, over the thirty years I've had it. Bargain, I reckon.

If you're going to keep it a while, it will cost you the same again sooner or later. That's what you have to remember.

[Tony1]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If "you" intend to insure this boat 'comprehensive'  then, for a boat of this age, the insurers will demand a survey anyway - so the £600 - £1000 for a survey is a non-negotiable expense.

 

I've no idea if the OP will look at GRP options, but if they do, is it recommended that you ask a specialist surveyor for GRP?

I ask because to diagnose and to repair the potential problems with GRP hulls will presumably require a different skillset to steel narrowboats. 

I recall an old work colleague called me about 6 months into my liveaboard lifestyle, telling me that his son had had the idea to live aboard a narrowboat, but only had a max budget of 20k, at the very very most. 

I pointed out all of the downsides of a GRP that had put me off them personally, but I also said that it was at least worth looking at a few, because if they found a decent example, it could work as long as the lad was happy with the compromises (e.g. having to fetch petrol for the engine, smaller interior space, smaller water tank, being vulnerable to bumps from steel narrowboats, etc).

But on the plus side, it might be cheaper to buy, cheaper to run (eg no blacking), and might need less money spending for remedial work than a 20k narrowboat. 

My thinking was that instead of spending 6 months or more and £10k fixing it up, he could get cruising straight away. 

They did look at a few narrowboats, and then at some 32ft viking cruisers (and similar), and they ended up going with a viking 32cc. I cant remember the age but it was younger than the narrowboats they'd seen, and in better condition, and he called me back 6 months later to say he son was absolutely loving life afloat, and had no major issues with the boat. 

If I was looking for a small canal boat and I only had 15k to spend with no major cash reserve, I wouldn't even consider a steel narrowboat. I'd be looking for a viking 32cc or similar, although you will to install a stove somewhere and do some other jobs if its for a liveaboard. 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Tony1

[Jim Riley]

The other grp types to look for are Dawncraft and Highbridge, the Highbridge has a door with a well deck at the front, almost a plastic narrowboat. 

I had a Dawncraft 22 as a holiday boat, fitted a little woodstove in that, it was great. Fancied a Highbridge 32 but a narrowboat project came along that I bought without survey, age unknown but really cheap, surveyed it as soon as I could, it was fine so did it up and now enjoy a great, if old, boat

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I've no idea if the OP will look at GRP options, but if they do, is it recommended that you ask a specialist surveyor for GRP?

I ask because to diagnose and to repair the potential problems with GRP hulls will presumably require a different skillset to steel narrowboats. 

 

A GRP can make a good liveaboard but generally they will need a big refit as they have little or non insulation.

We have a GRP cruiser which we 'live on' for 6 months or so per year, and odd weeks in the Winter - and she does have some insulation but I would certainly add more if we were using her continuously.

 

Any boat 40 years old is going to require a survey before it can be fully-comp insured, and will require a survey at regulat periods from then on (usually every 4 or 5 years).It is noot just a 'GRP' requirement but applies to any material (steel, concrete, etc etc)

Edited September 14, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A GRP can make a good liveaboard but generally they will need a big refit as they have not insulation.

We have a GRP cruiser which we 'live on' for 6 months or so per year, and odd weeks in the Winter - and she does have some insulation but I would certainly add more if we were using her continuously.

 

Any boat 40 years old is going to require a survey before it can be fully-comp insured, and will require a survey at regulat periods from then on (usually every 4 or 5 years).It is noot just a 'GRP' requirement but applies to any material (steel, concrete, etc etc)

 

Its certainly helpful to point out the need for insulation on a GRP if its a liveaboard, and I hope the OP takes note. 

The thing that I like about the idea of a GRP cruiser is that interior and fitout work can be done as DIY, including the insulation. It would be a major pain, but its doable, and for maybe a hundred quid. 

But as soon as the word 'overplating' appears in any conversation involving a 30 year old steel narrowboat, a sum of not less than 5 grand seems to invariably follow. 

 

 

 

 

[Machpoint005]

There's no getting around the fact that if the OP spends £12k on a boat, he will get a boat worth little more than £12k, if he is lucky.

 

If he wants a £30k boat, he'll have to spend about £30k.

 

On the other hand, he may not be lucky. That's really what it comes down to.

 

 

 

So no, he is not an idiot. The question should be, is he a gambler?

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

A woman on the moorings we were at Napton bought an old boat with no survey. Her philosophy was a boat of that age and price is going to need money spending on it so I may as well put the survey money towards that.

[Phoebeg543]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

I can totally understand the excitement and impulse to buy a boat, that might be pushing you mentally towards pulling the trigger on this boat, but I would strongly urge you not to rush in, unless you can afford to lose most of the money, and/or you have another 15k in reserve to fix any major issues, as people have explained above. Its a huge risk.

The problem is that a full survey might cost almost 10% of the price of the boat, so it looks like a really bad deal, but the truth is that the boat could very easily be a disaster waiting for you to step into it. Even worse, you can't sue a surveyor if they miss things, so even a survey is no guarantee. 

This is a bit of a left-field suggestion, but worth putting out there in case you havent thought about it yet: If you're ok with a 30ft boat, why not look for a GRP (glass fibre) boat of say 27- 32ft? You'll get just as much living space as on a 30ft steel narrowboat, but at least with a GRP boat, rust damage or pitting wont be an issue (although the hull could still be damaged and will still need surveying).  

 

This example is only 26ft, so probably not enough space to live on comfortably, but it'll give you an idea of the sort of thing I'm suggesting:

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/viking-cruisers-26-for-sale/711168

 

 

 

 

 Ahh thanks for the grp suggestion, I did consider them but I think the dream has always been a narrowboat

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Unless you're living on it, and it's your only home, I can't see the point of comp insurance. Mine's leisure, 3rd party since insurance was compulsory and none at all before that. Insurance is just licenced theft. RCR coverage does me, and stump up for anything else.

When I got mine, I had a friend who is not only an excellent engineer but was refurbishing an old working boat. I got him to come along and hit the hull with a hammer a few times. The boat cost me seven grand, has cost me another fifteen, probably, over the thirty years I've had it. Bargain, I reckon.

If you're going to keep it a while, it will cost you the same again sooner or later. That's what you have to remember.

I think I probably would be a full time liveaboard so would comprehensive be required? I guess it'd be all my worldly goods that could go down.

 

Cost the same again as in another 12 somewhere down the line it just depends when it hits me?

48 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

There's no getting around the fact that if the OP spends £12k on a boat, he will get a boat worth little more than £12k, if he is lucky.

 

If he wants a £30k boat, he'll have to spend about £30k.

 

On the other hand, he may not be lucky. That's really what it comes down to.

 

 

 

So no, he is not an idiot. The question should be, is he a gambler?

 

 

Hmmm she's debating that, which is the crux of the issue

[Barneyp]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

A woman on the moorings we were at Napton bought an old boat with no survey. Her philosophy was a boat of that age and price is going to need money spending on it so I may as well put the survey money towards that.

But how do you know where to spend the money, if it were me I would want a hull survey so I knew what needed fixing.

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A GRP can make a good liveaboard but generally they will need a big refit as they have little or non insulation.

We have a GRP cruiser which we 'live on' for 6 months or so per year, and odd weeks in the Winter - and she does have some insulation but I would certainly add more if we were using her continuously.

 

Any boat 40 years old is going to require a survey before it can be fully-comp insured, and will require a survey at regulat periods from then on (usually every 4 or 5 years).It is noot just a 'GRP' requirement but applies to any material (steel, concrete, etc etc)

I insured my 50ish year old GRP boat fully comp without a survey, I suppose it may depend on value, but I know you can insure up to at least £15,000  without a survey.

I'm not really sure of the value of a survey on a GRP boat, especially older inland waterways craft, the main two potential problems are osmosis and badly or unrepaired damage, both of which are likely to be fairly obvious to the naked eye if the hull is inspected closely.

[Tony1]

30 minutes ago, Phoebeg543 said:

 Ahh thanks for the grp suggestion, I did consider them but I think the dream has always been a narrowboat

 

 

Phoebe, I hope you won't think me rude in persisting with this, but do please stop and think about all of the financial implications you might get into with a 12k boat. 

If you have a reserve fund of 10k to fix the problems that you will find, then you can afford to take the chance- but otherwise you might be wise to consider that any narrowboat under 15k is a fairly risky prospect. 

I would look ask you this- is your dream to live on a narrowboat, or to live on the waterways?

If your dream is to live on the waterways, then the craft you live in doesn't matter that much, as long as you can live comfortably.

If your dream is specifically to live on a narrowboat, then fair enough- you can justify taking the gamble to fulfil the dream.

But I will say this- I've heard of a few people buying cheap narrowboats in the least couple of years, and all of them spent almost as much again on fixing it up.

And conversely, in June I met a young student in Chester who'd recently spent 15k on a viking 32 GRP boat, and all the issues he'd found so far he was able to sort out himself.  He even fitted fairy lights.

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

He even fitted fairy lights.

 

Or furry lights, if you happen to be from Liverpool.

 

 

[Tony1]

27 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Or furry lights, if you happen to be from Liverpool.

 

 

 

My dear fellow, Heaven forfend that I should appear to correct such a highly regarded (and dare I say, cunning) linguist. 

But as a Liverpudlian of more decades than I care to recall, I feel I must interject and offer a clarification regarding the pronunciation of the word 'fur'. 

There is, as far as I know, no vowel sound in the standard English language which accurately describes the sound made by a native Liverpudlian when saying this word. 

I can say that this unique vowel sound is almost identical in the words 'Er', 'Fur;, 'Her', There'- and even 'Work', as well as many other words.

I'm not aware of a phonetic spelling for this unusual vowel, so I shall leave it to this expert voice actor to enunciate:

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Tony1

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

But as a Liverpudlian of more decades than I care to recall

 

 

My sincere condolences....

 

 

[PD1964]

6 hours ago, Barneyp said:

What condition is the rest of the boat in?

Is the engine ok, does it start first time and sound ok, any kind of service history (even just an envelope full of receipts)

What's the fit out like, any signs of damp or mould, does the cooker work, do the taps work etc.

What's the paint work like.

 

If everything else is ok and you buy the boat and then have to spend another £15,000 on overplating, you will have spent £27,000 on a reasonable condition 30 foot boat.

If you need to repaint the outside, fix leaky windows, replace mouldy and damp ply lining, overhaul/replace the engine and gearbox, etc. The £27,000 could turn into £37,000 or more.

Who in their right minds is going to spend £37K on a 1970’s overplated boat? I’ll tell you, young clueless kids that are getting the money off Mum & Dad, 

 Your experience seams zilch, “does the cooker work, do the taps work”😂 I take it you’ve years of experience, with those questions? I would ignore any of your advice. What boat do you live on?  A GRP?