Day hire boats

[haggis]

I read a post on FB a wee while ago which I can't now find ! It was by Thorn Marine and listed the rules for day hire boats for 2023. Among the changes were maximum number on board to be 6 ( currently 12 I believe ) , a nominated skipper, more paperwork and hand over rules. I think the reduction to 6 on board will have a big impact on day boat hire as most of the ones we have seen seem to have the full compliment of 12. Obviously safety has prompted a lot of the other new conditions.

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, haggis said:

I read a post on FB a wee while ago which I can't now find ! It was by Thorn Marine and listed the rules for day hire boats for 2023. Among the changes were maximum number on board to be 6 ( currently 12 I believe ) , a nominated skipper, more paperwork and hand over rules. I think the reduction to 6 on board will have a big impact on day boat hire as most of the ones we have seen seem to have the full compliment of 12. Obviously safety has prompted a lot of the other new conditions.

Its all down to the heeling test. Our 12 was reduced to 8 but it tends to be totally ineffective as they hire then pick up 10 of their mates at the first bridge.

We had to go out and evict 16 off a 30ft day boat one day....... 

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm going from memory here :

 

The manufacturer of the boat gives a maximum loading to meet the maximum allowable angle of heel. This loading is converted to "number of persons" which are taken as 75kgs each. So if the rating is 10 persons than the boat will withstand 750kgs on 'one side of the boat'- however what many seem to forget is that the actual number is the load the boat can carry including person, baggage, crates of beer, any additonal fittings  not fitted by the manufacturer - seating, cupboards etc etc (but already includes 95% full water and fuel tanks if fitted)

 

75kgs is about 11 /12 stone which is not a lot in todays overfed society - in fact, the average weight of an adult male in the Uk is 84kgs

So, 12 persons each with a 10kg 'packed lunch of sandwiches and beer' could almost equal another 2 people.

Throw in 3 or 4 obese guys (or gals) at 125kg each and 8 or 9 at the UK average weight and you have the equivalent of about another 4 people.

 

Small craft — Stability and buoyancy assessment and categorization —

 

3.5.4 maximum load

 

load which the boat is designed to carry in addition to the light craft condition, comprising:

— the crew limit at 75 kg each;

— the personal effects of the crew;

— stores and cargo (if any), dry provisions, consumable liquids;

— contents of all permanently installed storage tanks filled to 95 % of their maximum capacity, including fuel, drinking water, black water, grey water, lubricating and hydraulic oil, bait tanks and/or live wells; plus ballast water at 100 % capacity;

— consumable liquids in portable tanks (drinking water, fuel) filled to 95 % of the maximum capacity

[ditchcrawler]

(2) Thorn Marine – Posts | Facebook

[haggis]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

(2) Thorn Marine – Posts | Facebook

Thanks, Brian, or for those who don't read FB here is the relevant bit. 

Later this year a new Hire boat code will be coming into force, it includes many things that will impact how our dayboat operates; Stability, Handover, Paper work, Risk assessments, Maintenance, incident reporting, hirer and operator responsibilities. These changes were developed by the British Marine Federation and are being enforced by the Licencing Authorities.

• Maximum Passengers 6

• More extensive handover paperwork and procedure

• Designated skipper and their responsibilities and ability

• New reporting Procedures

These are beyond our control.

 

The message then goes on to say how this will affect their prices etc  and the bit above is the relevant bit

[David Mack]

Is 6 passengers specific to the Thorn Marine craft, or does it apply across the board? If so it is going to impact the wider day hire market.

[Stroudwater1]

So relieved its getting more restricted, the price of day boat hire was going through the roof due to the cost of sinking retrievals from overloaded boats. 😁

[cuthound]

43 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

So relieved its getting more restricted, the price of day boat hire was going through the roof due to the cost of sinking retrievals from overloaded boats. 😁

 

By reducing the number of passengers from 12 to 6 will probably cause the price per person to double, and almost certainly result in fewer day boats.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

By reducing the number of passengers from 12 to 6 will probably cause the price per person to double, and almost certainly result in fewer day boats.

Why? The cost to the operator doesn't change whether there are 6 or 12 passengers. More likely impact is that if larger parties cannot be accommodated, a few will hire two boats (where the operator has two boats available, and they will pay double), but mostly those larger parties will just not hire, and so the overall level of business will go down.

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Why? The cost to the operator doesn't change whether there are 6 or 12 passengers.

 

Exactly : it still costs (say) £600 to operate the boat, so when 12 people were renting it worked out at £50/head, but with only 6 people (and the same costs) it now costs them £100/head.

 

Hence :

 

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

by reducing the number of passengers from 12 to 6 will probably cause the price per person to double,

 

[malp]

Presumably the 6 passenger rule will apply to GoBoats as well, though probably with less effect, as the ones operating in Birmingham don't often seem to have the maximum allowed 8 passengers.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Exactly : it still costs (say) £600 to operate the boat, so when 12 people were renting it worked out at £50/head, but with only 6 people (and the same costs) it now costs them £100/head.

Buy if 6 people were renting it before it was still costing £100/head, so those groups of up to 6 people who were prepared to pay that won't see an increase. But parties of 12 (or 7) won't have the option to hire a boat in future, so will go off and do something else instead.

 

(Last time I hired a day boat it didn't cost much over £100/day for the whole boat, so all the per head costs were much lower).

[ditchcrawler]

But is it an enforceable "Rule"

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

But is it an enforceable "Rule"

 

I think the hire firms can enforce it at the point of boat collection/handover. If the hirers take on extra friends a bit along the canal, its their own responsibility and if an incident happens, likely to lose their deposit and maybe the insurance won't pay out either, landing them with legal action etc maybe?

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, Paul C said:

 

I think the hire firms can enforce it at the point of boat collection/handover. If the hirers take on extra friends a bit along the canal, its their own responsibility and if an incident happens, likely to lose their deposit and maybe the insurance won't pay out either, landing them with legal action etc maybe?

That is not what I meant, The hire companies could reduce numbers any time they wanted to. What I meant was will it be enforced that they have to reduce numbers.

[Stroudwater1]

3 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

By reducing the number of passengers from 12 to 6 will probably cause the price per person to double, and almost certainly result in fewer day boats.

I was being ironic, sorry.

 

Have any day boats ever sank from overloading on the high seas of Rugby Alvechurch or Paddington? Aside from Alans example of the Spinger overplated on the Thames Im not sure Ive ever heard of it. Crazy new regs if they are actually in place? 

[David Mack]

2 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Have any day boats ever sank from overloading on the high seas of Rugby Alvechurch or Paddington?

I seem to recall one on the Norfolk Broads overturned when most of the passengers were on the roof and the steerer executed a sharp turn.

[Paul C]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That is not what I meant, The hire companies could reduce numbers any time they wanted to. What I meant was will it be enforced that they have to reduce numbers.

 

Oh I see what you mean now. I can't imagine from a hire firm POV it would be worth 'bending' the rules eg by letting groups of 7+ hire a 6 person boat. Its not worth the risk for them. They never particularly liked hiring the day boat to bigger groups before anyway, but did it because its better than the boat sitting unhired that day. They never got issues or complaints from couples or groups of 2-4, for example.

[David Mack]

The two occasions I have hired day boats have been family gatherings. The first, a good number of years ago, comprised my wife and I and our 3 children, my sister and brother in law and their 2 children and my parents, a total of 11 people. The second more recent trip comprised my wife and I, our three children, my daughter in law, her parents, her grandmother, her two sisters plus one sister's boyfriend, a total of 12 people. If we couldn't have hired for groups that size, we simply wouldn't have hired at all. The industry is going to lose out significantly if the limit of 6 passengers becomes widespread.

[Mike Todd]

A few days ago we took a short tidal river ferry trip on a boat licensed for a  max 12 passengers; at the boarding point a young summer job lad was diligently enforcing the rule in the face of a longish queue.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Mike Todd