blackrose Posted July 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) I don't think bicycle stabilisers are a very good analogy when talking about bow thrusters. I think power steering in a car might be a better analogy. So how many of us don't want power steering in our car because we think not having it will makes us a more skillful purist driver? 🤔 Edited July 3, 2022 by blackrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, IanD said: But at least they can do a John Cleese and look snobbishly down on all those horrible modern boaters who don't think anything less than 50 years old is automatically rubbish... 😉 In fairness Ian, when I do a John Cleese I'm more likely to be hitting my boat with branches! My boat is pushing 50 years, but will never be accepted by the HNBC ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, blackrose said: I don't think bicycle stabilisers are a very good analogy when talking about bow thrusters. I think power steering in a car might be a better analogy. So how many of us don't want power steering in our car because we think not having it will makes us a more skillful purist driver? 🤔 Or similarly insist that a manual gearbox and clutch are what *real* drivers have, not those nasty newfangled DCT gearboxes -- I bet some even hark back to the days of the manual choke, or having a manual lever to set the ignition advance, and no synchromesh so you have to double-declutch. Now put all that together and you do need a *real* driver to cope... 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 6 minutes ago, blackrose said: I don't think bicycle stabilisers are a very good analogy when talking about bow thrusters. I think power steering in a car might be a better analogy. So how many of us don't want power steering in our car because we think not having it will makes us a more skillful purist driver? 🤔 You're prejudiced though Mike - you have a boat where they are actually both helpful and necessary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 19 minutes ago, Trawler said: I carry Epirbs, sat phones, life raft etc on my other boat. As do I. Are you suggesting that a bow thruster on a narowboat is a 'safety device' rather than just a 'way around' poor handling skills ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: As do I. Are you suggesting that a bow thruster on a narowboat is a 'safety device' rather than just a 'way around' poor handling skills ? Why do you seem to think that anyone who thinks a bow thruster can be useful in some circumstances -- for example, when reversing -- has poor boat handling skills? Or maybe you really *are* John Cleese, and enjoy looking down on people you think -- probably wrongly -- are inferior to you... 😉 Edited July 3, 2022 by IanD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 20 minutes ago, Trawler said: I carry Epirbs, sat phones, life raft etc on my other boat. Seems excessive for the Hudd Shallow ... ... but perfectly sensible for offshore boating. 17 minutes ago, Trawler said: They make the ride a lot more comfortable on my trawler too. They would, although probably not the training wheels I was referring to. Does your bowthruster make much difference to you beyond the 12 mile limit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trawler Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: As do I. Are you suggesting that a bow thruster on a narowboat is a 'safety device' rather than just a 'way around' poor handling skills ? I thought I was responding to criticism regarding my rudder lock idea not bow thrusters. my view on bow thrusters? I’m in favor generally but never piloted a narrowboat so can’t opine. I think I’d like one on a longer boat for sure. . I have one on my trawler. I don’t need it often as I have twin counter rotating props and can position it where I want by gears alone, combined with having substantial weight and relatively low wind age so I don’t get pushed around much. Last month for three weeks I had to return And back in to a slip with a very expensive yacht next to me 3’ away and winds variable and gusting to 35 knots so I did use it one day for a burst or two. I didn’t need it because really you are only in gear at most a second because you don’t want forward or reverse momentum. I can spin my boat in place with gears only no thrusters. Generally though as you know boats pivot around a point (different if going forward or reverse) and by putting my starboard diesel in gear forward bow swings port and stern starboard and the opposite when I put it in reverse. And the opposite of that with my port engine. So with twins you can do everything by prop walk and prop wash. with a single, as in a NB, it’s much harder I think and prop wash will only work on one side depending whether you have a left or right prop, and really only in reverse. I’d be much happier with a bow thruster I’m sure in that case. I often think about a stern thruster but that’s even less necessary. There would be situations where I’m sure it would reduce anxiety. so my view is put one on, when you need it it will make you much happier. There is no shame in using any tool available to you. be careful with continuous use though as the electric ones can overheat quickly. I’ve seen this debate so often in trawler land. If it reduces workload or anxiety and you can afford it go ahead. It also makes docking easier especially when you single hand but I think properly knowing how to use spring lines is the way to get out of tight spots. That’s what I do. I look forward to joining everyone on the canals and discussing further over a pint! I hope you accept me! Edited July 3, 2022 by Trawler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trawler Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 33 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said: They would, although probably not the training wheels I was referring to. Does your bowthruster make much difference to you beyond the 12 mile limit? Not sure why I’m being trolled! 😂 but playing along, I don’t recognize 12 miles. 3 miles is important in Canada as that’s where I can discharge my black water tanks. 100 miles is still coastal. 😂 Edited July 3, 2022 by Trawler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 19 minutes ago, Trawler said: playing along, I don’t recognize 12 miles. Ah. You should ... Let Wiki help you a bit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters#Territorial_sea Territorial sea, as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea,[2] is a belt of coastal waters extending at most 12 nautical miles (22 km; 14 mi) from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state. The territorial sea is regarded as the sovereign territory of the state, although foreign ships (military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it, or transit passage for straits; this sovereignty also extends to the airspace over and seabed below. Adjustment of these boundaries is called, in international law, maritime delimitation. I have no argument that a bowthruster may be helpful for very close quarter handling, I'm just interested how often you use one in open water to assist your steering. Hopefully you don't often get so close to other vessels that you need to use it frequently in international waters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trawler Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said: Ah. You should ... Let Wiki help you a bit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters#Territorial_sea Territorial sea, as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea,[2] is a belt of coastal waters extending at most 12 nautical miles (22 km; 14 mi) from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state. The territorial sea is regarded as the sovereign territory of the state, although foreign ships (military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it, or transit passage for straits; this sovereignty also extends to the airspace over and seabed below. Adjustment of these boundaries is called, in international law, maritime delimitation. I have no argument that a bowthruster may be helpful for very close quarter handling, I'm just interested how often you use one in open water to assist your steering. Hopefully you don't often get so close to other vessels that you need to use it frequently in international waters! Yes, I know that. I was being playful in my answer. However when you are in the country going further offshore doesn’t really matter so 12 miles is irrelevant. I do clear customs as I transit between Canada and the US as I like to stay coastal. I will go further than 12 miles off sometimes for longer trips. Since it was apparently a sincere question, no, bow thrusters are only used for slow speed maneuvering around constricted areas in the marinas and docking Edited July 3, 2022 by Trawler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardang Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 8 hours ago, Trawler said: Yes, I know that. I was being playful in my answer. However when you are in the country going further offshore doesn’t really matter so 12 miles is irrelevant. I do clear customs as I transit between Canada and the US as I like to stay coastal. I will go further than 12 miles off sometimes for longer trips. Since it was apparently a sincere question, no, bow thrusters are only used for slow speed maneuvering around constricted areas in the marinas and docking Very occasionally, a bow thrust can come in very useful. Some years ago, I had a colleague who was master of an anchor handling supply vessel working offshore Nova Scotia fairly near to Sable Island. Unfortunately, he fouled both propellers and was unable to clear them. However, luckily the ship was fitted with an omni-directional gill jet bow thrust with a diesel prime mover, and so he was able to steam slowly back to base in Mulgrave, N.S which took him over 24 hours, averaging around 3-4 knots. I suppose the purists would have rather had him rig a jury mast and sail!😮 Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, howardang said: Very occasionally, a bow thrust can come in very useful. Some years ago, I had a colleague who was master of an anchor handling supply vessel working offshore Nova Scotia fairly near to Sable Island. Unfortunately, he fouled both propellers and was unable to clear them. However, luckily the ship was fitted with an omni-directional gill jet bow thrust with a diesel prime mover, and so he was able to steam slowly back to base in Mulgrave, N.S which took him over 24 hours, averaging around 3-4 knots. I suppose the purists would have rather had him rig a jury mast and sail!😮 Howard There have certainly cases on the canals where I would have found one useful, not just reversing (which I managed to do past all the moored boats and the bridge into Trevor basin last time out, so my boat handling skills can't be that poor) -- for example being pushed across by crosswinds away from a water point while being unable to swing the stern across due to moored boats on both sides, or similarly towards boats moored on the outside of a bend, or a stronger than expected bywash. There are occasional times when for one reason or another you can't get the stern across to push the bows round, and that's when a bow thruster would be useful -- but not all the time to compensate for inability to steer, as some people (not all!) undoubtedly do... 😉 Edited July 4, 2022 by IanD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardang Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 hour ago, IanD said: There have certainly cases on the canals where I would have found one useful, not just reversing (which I managed to do past all the moored boats and the bridge into Trevor basin last time out, so my boat handling skills can't be that poor) -- for example being pushed across by crosswinds away from a water point while being unable to swing the stern across due to moored boats on both sides, or similarly towards boats moored on the outside of a bend, or a stronger than expected bywash. There are occasional times when for one reason or another you can't get the stern across to push the bows round, and that's when a bow thruster would be useful -- but not all the time to compensate for inability to steer, as some people (not all!) undoubtedly do... 😉 I agree. There are some people, including some contributors to this esteemed forum, who seem to assume that everyone who uses a bow thrust is a poor boat handler. While they are, of course, entitled to their views, in my view this is a legitimate case where the expression "total twaddle " is fully justified! Quite often, those who have the most to say about every subject and experience under the sun are usually the ones whose views can often be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Of course there are boaters who overuse bow thrusts or use them instead of using the rudder, but I wish the know-it-all's for once would live and let live, and think back to the days when they were just starting to use the waterways and think about the mistakes they made before they became the experts in all things boating.😉 Howard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 43 minutes ago, howardang said: … and think back to the days when they were just starting to use the waterways and think about the mistakes they made before they became the experts in all things boating.😉 Howard When I was just starting to use the waterways, no narrowboats had bow thrusters, or none that I came across anyway. They can on occasion be useful I suppose but set against that are the maintenance issues (batteries, charging at a distance, motors jamming or failing, and worst of all bow thruster tube corrosion). We don’t have one and in the 11 years of ownership I can only think of a couple of occasions when i really wished we did have one. As you say, it is a personal choice but personally I can’t see the need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, nicknorman said: When I was just starting to use the waterways, no narrowboats had bow thrusters, or none that I came across anyway. They can on occasion be useful I suppose but set against that are the maintenance issues (batteries, charging at a distance, motors jamming or failing, and worst of all bow thruster tube corrosion). We don’t have one and in the 11 years of ownership I can only think of a couple of occasions when i really wished we did have one. As you say, it is a personal choice but personally I can’t see the need. I don't think anyone is saying a BT is needed, but like many other "optional extras" on a boat (washing machine? microwave?) it's sometimes useful to have one. Or not, as you say it's your choice. But not having one doesn't automatically make a boater superior to one who has, or mean that the boater who has one is incapable of steering... 😉 The UK is rife with snobbery -- normal or inverted -- and boats are unfortunately no different, certainly going by some posters on CWDF about bow-thrusters and other equipment, or hulls... 😞 Edited July 4, 2022 by IanD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 26 minutes ago, IanD said: or mean that the boater who has one is incapable of steering... 😉 Because bowthrusters are invisible to the passing boater, except when in use, I'm sure I must have passed thousands of bow thruster owners who are perfectly competent steerers. But I have passed a few boaters whose obvious use of a bowthruster at the wrong time or in the wrong way is, or simply in a seeming unwillingness to use the tiller for its intended purpose, is often only too clear a demonstration of their inability to steer. And it is these cases that stick in the mind and lead to unwarranted prejudice against the wider number of BT boats. Same as nobody remembers the many courteous ex-working boat owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, David Mack said: Because bowthrusters are invisible to the passing boater, except when in use, I'm sure I must have passed thousands of bow thruster owners who are perfectly competent steerers. But I have passed a few boaters whose obvious use of a bowthruster at the wrong time or in the wrong way is, or simply in a seeming unwillingness to use the tiller for its intended purpose, is often only too clear a demonstration of their inability to steer. And it is these cases that stick in the mind and lead to unwarranted prejudice against the wider number of BT boats. Same as nobody remembers the many courteous ex-working boat owners. Or the competent hire-boaters... 😉 Edited July 4, 2022 by IanD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob-M Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 hour ago, David Mack said: Because bowthrusters are invisible to the passing boater, except when in use, I'm sure I must have passed thousands of bow thruster owners who are perfectly competent steerers. But I have passed a few boaters whose obvious use of a bowthruster at the wrong time or in the wrong way is, or simply in a seeming unwillingness to use the tiller for its intended purpose, is often only too clear a demonstration of their inability to steer. And it is these cases that stick in the mind and lead to unwarranted prejudice against the wider number of BT boats. Same as nobody remembers the many courteous ex-working boat owners. Like the person who needed to use their bow thruster on a straight piece of canal as we passed and their sudden use of their bow thruster pushed my bows straight in to a moored boat. I have no idea why they suddenly thought the need to use it but they carried on totally unaware of the consequences as I had to deal with the lady on the boat I hit and explain it was the other boats bow thruster that caused the problem not my steering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted July 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, howardang said: Very occasionally, a bow thrust can come in very useful. Some years ago, I had a colleague who was master of an anchor handling supply vessel working offshore Nova Scotia fairly near to Sable Island. Unfortunately, he fouled both propellers and was unable to clear them. However, luckily the ship was fitted with an omni-directional gill jet bow thrust with a diesel prime mover, and so he was able to steam slowly back to base in Mulgrave, N.S which took him over 24 hours, averaging around 3-4 knots. I suppose the purists would have rather had him rig a jury mast and sail!😮 Howard I was on a car ferry once crossing a big river estuary in west Africa and it threw the main prop. The skipper tried to use the bow thruster to take us the rest of way across but we were at least half a km away and the ferry was spinning around in circles so eventually the other ferry came to get us. Anyway, how did a thread about rudder stall angles descend into another tedious "BTs aren't necessary" thread? Edited July 4, 2022 by blackrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, blackrose said: I was on a car ferry once crossing a big river estuary in west Africa and it threw the main prop. The skipper tried to use the bow thruster to take us the rest of way across but we were at least half a km away and the ferry was spinning around in circles so eventually the other ferry came to get us. Anyway, how did a thread about rudder stall angles descend into another tedious "BTs aren't necessary" thread? Because I had the temerity to point out that they can actually be useful when reversing, and the anti-BT brigade jumped in with both feet... 😉 Edited July 4, 2022 by IanD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardang Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 hour ago, blackrose said: I was on a car ferry once crossing a big river estuary in west Africa and it threw the main prop. The skipper tried to use the bow thruster to take us the rest of way across but we were at least half a km away and the ferry was spinning around in circles so eventually the other ferry came to get us. Anyway, how did a thread about rudder stall angles descend into another tedious "BTs aren't necessary" thread? It's the nature of this forum, I'm afraid. Occasionally, I have made a similar comment about thread drift but others have suggested that this is what they like about the forum so I now go with the flow. Regarding the "tedious" nature of the bow thrust debate, I'm afraid there will always be Luddites, and it is a hard job persuading them otherwise but I try without much success!😒 Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 2 hours ago, blackrose said: Anyway, how did a thread about rudder stall angles descend into another tedious "BTs aren't necessary" thread? You need a bow thruster to push the thread so it is back pointing in the right direction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard10002 Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 31 minutes ago, IanD said: the anti-BT brigade jumped in with both feet... 😉 Not unlike the anti-TV brigade. I've got 2 TVs, unlimited internet, digital piano, in fact, all the mod cons I can get on board a 45ft cruiser. I'd like a bowthruster as, whilst my boat handling skills are often commented on as exemplary, it would avoid the faff of putting the engine in forward to get back on course when reversing... it's not only a faff, but it slows you down. In addition, there are times when it would help with mooring. None of my mod cons are "needed", but I like them, want them, and nobody should feel that they can tell me I shouldn't have them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted July 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, IanD said: Because I had the temerity to point out that they can actually be useful when reversing, and the anti-BT brigade jumped in with both feet... 😉 That was your mistake. Never under any circumstances unless strictly necessary mention BTs on this forum! I'm sure on other boating forums where the boats are typically smaller, lighter, better handling and therefore BTs are less useful, they would discuss them calmly and rationally like any other piece of optional boat equipment. However, a significant proportion of canal boaters tend to have luddite tendencies and are triggered very easily. Edited July 4, 2022 by blackrose 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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