SML Ballastic EPOXY

[DHutch]

On 01/09/2023 at 10:16, ditchcrawler said:

Have a chat with Northwich Dry dock or Mike Carter 

I certainly will, it's Northwich Drydock we're using.  

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, DHutch said:

I certainly will, it's Northwich Drydock we're using.  

This is what I had done, its my second visit Harnser's Travels: The past week Northwich Dry Dock (nbharnser.blogspot.com)

[Sea Dog]

17 hours ago, blackrose said:

No sorry I don't buy that theory.

No need to apologise to me - it's not my theory and I'm not selling it! 

17 hours ago, blackrose said:

No sorry I don't buy that theory.

No need to apologise to me - it's not my theory and I'm not selling it! 

[DHutch]

On 01/09/2023 at 08:57, Sea Dog said:

I have Daniel, yes, in June this year which was after 2 years. I have reported the results in one of these threads, but clearly not this one!

The results were mixed. The bow was absolutely as new, well adhered and unscathed. Midships had picked up some battle scars with local whitening where the coating remained intact, but localised rusting where the scrape was through to the steel. Seeing the rusting scrapes below the waterline when in clear water prompted the haul out. The rust here was not serious though and the coating around it still mostly well adhered. However, I did find some areas where moisture had crept in, oddly particularly around the anodes where even though the finish looked good I was able to lift some patches. 

I had a supply of Jotamastic 90 on hand to complete repairs to the scrapes, but a. because of the moisture creep and b. because of the vulnerability to scrape damage (both cosmetically and brittleness) I decided to get busy with the power tools and then reblack using 3 coats of SML's Ballastic Black bitumen blacking. I just think this tends to smudge rather than shatter when it meets underwater nasties, hence for my use I went back to bitumen for DIY work.

Whether the failings were as a result of my prep (bare metal, but not SA2.5 - this is the point of the primer) or the effectiveness of the SML epoxy primer I can't tell, although I can say I saw no evidence of weakness where I'd used Vactan in old pitting and scrapes.

Lastly, apart from white scrapes, the Jotamastic 90 finish was still black, not grey.

 

Ok, that's all very interesting. Thanks for posting back. 

 

You said in your first post the the hull was 'throughly hand preped' and mentioned vactan, did you bare metal and vactan the whole hull? With some coating retained in a few pits, or what there a good amount of coating retention in other areas? 

 

Brittle is basically bad in any paint I think, but particularly the hull coating on a narrowboat or similar where there is not only contact, but often new coating on to old, increasing thickness. Soft and well bonded is what you want. 

 

We've never used bitumen, and originally used a full two pack system. But following advise Leigh's Paints my grandfather switched to their M535 one pot Vinyl which has worked very well, it sticks, gots fairly hard, but doesn't flake or crack at all. I would carry on using it for another 30 years if I could still buy it, or find an appropriately similar alternative.

 

However sadly high performance underwater one pot coatings seem very thin on the ground. 

 

Hence we have a boat, with zero rust, and a really pretty good coat of vinyl blacking pretty much all over, which after four years needs a bit of touching up and then two new coats all ov r. Just need something which can be used over the vinyl!

 

Else it's shot blasting off a lot of sound paint, with all the cost and faff that entails. Hence not considering that option. 

[matty40s]

Old Friends was in Comastic vinyl tar for its first 28 years, following its European ban, I eventually found Dacrylate Epidac 16 2 pack as a suitable alternative. This can be applied directly to the existing coating.

I will find out next week how well the 2019 application has stood up.

Unfortunately, Dacrylate customer service seems to have failed completely, both the chap that was on here, and the website helpline are not replying to anything.

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, DHutch said:

You said in your first post the the hull was 'throughly hand preped' and mentioned vactan, did you bare metal and vactan the whole hull? With some coating retained in a few pits, or what there a good amount of coating retention in other areas? 

I scraped all previous bitumen blacking off with a hand scraper, wire brushed either hand or machine where there was still bitumen residue and then applied Vactan (rather than used a grinder and remove metal) where there was any remaining evidence of rust. There really wasn't anything of the previous coating other than the odd "stain". I didn't find evidence that the Vactan had caused any poor adherence.

The main area of failure was moisture creeping under the coating around the anodes. I can only surmise this area was very smooth and perhaps needed extra keying and also an edge appeared where the 2 pack met the rough edges of the anodes as the magnesium receded. I could have 2-pack repaired this, but what tipped the balance for me was a few underwater scrapes through to bare metal, not a nagging concern I can live with. However, these had not badly rusted, so they weren't actually a disaster.

Perhaps SA2.5 levels of prep would have prevented these issues, but reducing that level of prep to hand tool level was the whole point of the SML Ballastic Black 2 pack epoxy primer. If the boat was a marina queen, I'd probably continued my plan to repair with Jotamastic 90, but with a mooring on the Shroppie and enjoying extended cruising I thought the scraping risk too great. I'm still considering the Debdale Zinga and 2 pack option for next time though, as finding a slipway seems to be an ever increasing struggle. It's a conundrum.

 

[Colin Brendan]

23 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

No sorry I don't buy that theory. Most epoxies won't react to old bitumen so that's not the problem. The issue is that any amount of bitumen left on the steel represents a weaker bond to the steel than had the epoxy been applied directly to correctly prepped steel.

 

To me this sounds like a case of an epoxy being marketed as a way to avoid proper steel prep, but as I said, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Yeah - I think it's supposed to be a high tolerance epoxy that's particularly good at bonding to bitumen. I'm not sure any of the other high tolerance ones bond to bitumen to any practical exent. Shotblast and proper epoxy is definitely better but that would cost me at least 6k more. Ballistic Epoxy is a bit more expensive than bitumen, a bit better at handling diesel, a bit worse at handling lock landings... I think? I'm thinking it's a good thing, esp. As lots of boatyards around me don't do shot blasting. I've always found bitumen useless to the extent that I'd almost call it a con. But... I haven't had it out the water yet so I might be talking bollocks.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Colin Brendan

[Tonka]

4 hours ago, matty40s said:

Old Friends was in Comastic vinyl tar for its first 28 years, following its European ban, I eventually found Dacrylate Epidac 16 2 pack as a suitable alternative. This can be applied directly to the existing coating.

I will find out next week how well the 2019 application has stood up.

Unfortunately, Dacrylate customer service seems to have failed completely, both the chap that was on here, and the website helpline are not replying to anything.

Does it bond to any coating or just Comastic

[DHutch]

On 01/09/2023 at 15:28, blackrose said:

SML ballistic epoxy doesn't sound very good at all if it's shattering as in SeaDog's review above. If people are going to all the trouble of prepping a hull for epoxy then I don't understand why they don't go for a reputable brand? I guess the SML epoxy must be cheaper than Jotun but it sounds like a false economy. Who actually makes the SML stuff anyway? SML are a paint supplier rather than manufacturer.

If you shotblast to bright, your range of options is very wide, and is likely an epoxy aluminium followed by epoxy blacking.

 

However what SML advertise with the Ballastic Epoxy is that it is 'Compatible with most aged coatings' including bitumen, vinyl, chlorinated rubber, etc.

Which is in contrast to most epoxy blacking, where the technical advise is that it is not tested or recommended for that use. 

 

I don't know who makes the product, but I too believe it is indeed manufactured for them by someone else, although I doubt it it Jotun.  

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

Does it bond to any coating or just Comastic

I dont know, and have failed to get that question answered by Dacrylate.

[Clanky]

Dacrylate Epidac is what Matt at Northwich dry dock used on my previous boat, which had intertuff bitumen on before hand. So I would say it would bond to any previous coating not just comastic. The hull was jet washed with a 4500psi washer then an aluminium based 2 pac epoxy undercoat was applied then a black 2 pac epoxy top coat and finally a single pac show coat. 

[DHutch]

On 01/09/2023 at 21:04, blackrose said:

No sorry I don't buy that theory. Most epoxies won't react to old bitumen so that's not the problem. 

 

I guess this is where theory and practice meet. 

 

Is there anything special about the SML branded product?

Or is it just they have done more testing, and or pushing the limits, hence are happy to market it more confidently? Because they understand it is a product type that people are interested in.

 

Sherwin Williams (Leigh's Paints) technical person suggested their otherwise recommended L524 Epoxy would be risky over our existing M535 Vinyl, and that their M902 Aluminium Epoxy would be a safer bet as it's higher solids at 75% vs 64%. Coupled with the fact the coating is now four years old, and we have used it before for repairing over bare metal areas without issue. But it's also significantly more expensive. SW don't have anything in their current range they would recommend/endorse over coating their discontiuned Vinyl product with. Apparently the M535 'pitch-free vinyl underwater primer' while suitable for a final finish was predominantly offered as a tiecoat for antifouling, and has been discontinued as they have discontinued the whole AF range.

The SML Ballastic Epoxy is also 75% solids. However the Jotumastic range is an 80% solids product. 

 

Jotuns technical person was again cautious about the risks of putting two pack over single pack and getting a reaction between the products, and reiterated that it isn't something you would advise or gain benefit from intially doing. Obviously where not doing it as a planned system! However also somewhat seemed to agree that their product being relatively high solids would mean somewhat reduced solvent incompatibly risk. They do a vinyl tiecoat product, but it contains aluminium so is silver in finish and unlike the M535 not recommended for a final coating. They also have 'Pioner' a single pack with good colour retention you can use as a topcoat for cosmetic appearance, but if you do, its then not advised to apply further Jotumastic over it in the future. 

They also said that the original product was the Jotumastic 87, that the 80 is a cost-down product to be competitive against other lower costs epoxies, and that the 90 was predominantly introduced to be tintable to a wide range of colours. Hence for blacking or Aluminium base coat there is no advantage to the 90 over the 87. Also confirmed their is no benefit in applying the aluminium other than directly to the steel.

 

Apologies for the long post, but it's all interesting information.

 

 

 

In summary, I'm left unsure if the SML Balastic epoxy is actually any more tolerant over our existing Vinyl than the Jotumastic 87/90 would be? With some suggestion it might otherwise be an inferior product. 

 

Obviously it would be nice to do some test patches, but at £90 for 5L and only a week on drydock, you basically have to make a call in advance!

 

[DHutch]

Current prices as follows, prices inc VAT.

 

SML Ballastic Epoxy black  £92.34 per 5l     or   £18.50/litre

Jotamastic 87 (in black)     £82.75 per 4.5l   or   £17.60/litre (from SML, or £89/4.5 at Paints4trade)

Jotamastic 90 (in black)     £92.60 per 4.5l   or   £20.80/litre (from SML, same price at Paints4trade)

Jotamastic 90AL (silver)    £87.18 per 4.5l   or   £19.20/litre  (from SML) 

Sherwin Williams L524      £96.56 per 4L     or   £24.00/litre  (from SW Online, a subset of Paints4Trade)

Sherwin Williams M902   £178.87 per 5L     or   £25.80/litre  (SW online)

                     or                 £68.36 per  2l      so   £24.20/litre which is a nice amount for just touching up bare metal scratches etc.

 

[DHutch]

Leaning towards going straight on with the Jotamastic.

 

SML are sending me out their free 'test kit' (basically a rag soaked in epoxy thinners) to stick on the side of the boat for a bit. Assuming it passes, hopefully we are good for most 2pack epoxy products and can continue with an additive coating rescheme. 

 

 

Daniel

[LadyG]

I have three coats of Jotamastic 90, it was left four or five days in perfect conditions before launch, that was two years ago, it's no longer black., it has faded and I think it's a bit muddy grey on the waterline. There was no rust on the hull when I started.

[DHutch]

Doing a bit more digging, and I have found Internationals "Intertuf 203" which appears to be a very similar one-pack vinyl product to what we have used in the past. Availability appears to be somewhat limited, and restricted to 20L tins, but given we where likely going to buy 15-20L anyway that should be ok.

 

Prices appear to fluctuate from £317 to £690 but assuming you can you pick the lower end its around £16-18/L

 

https://www.mylorchandlery.co.uk/antifouling-paint/international-intertuf-203/

 

 

[rusty69]

On 03/09/2023 at 10:33, DHutch said:

In summary, I'm left unsure if the SML Balastic epoxy is actually any more tolerant over our existing Vinyl than the Jotumastic 87/90 would be? With some suggestion it might otherwise be an inferior product. 

When we were researching coatings earlier this year, I approached SML with this question:

 

"Many thanks for the reply. Looking at the data sheet (attached) under 'product number',it mentions Epidac 2 HB 90-294 Epoxy.  So, is this the same product as Dacrylate Epidac 2 HB 90-294 Epoxy, or is the SML product a modified version of epidac?"

 

They replied:

 

"Our SML Ballastic Epoxy is a product which we have specifically developed as a conversion product for existing Bitumen.  Whilst there are similarities to the Dacrylate product you mentioned, Ballastic Epoxy is under continuous review in terms of it’s formulation.

 

Most importantly and more relevantly to yourself, it is totally suitable for the project you have described.  As long as the Bitumen is sound and properly cleaned and prepared as per our guidelines, it will give you good protection for a good number of years."

 

I seem to recall a member on here named dacrylate paints suggesting the Dacrylate Epidac 2 HB 90-294 was not suitable for being applied on top of exisiting bitumen.

 

Armed with this information, I chose Jotun 90 instead, though the chemco RM 500 coating that is held in high regard by at least one forum member was a contender, but my budget wouldn't stretch to it.

Ballastic Epoxy Safety (5).pdf

[Peanut]

Internationals Intertuf 203,from their PDF

 

SURFACE PREPARATIONS
Use in accordance with the standard Worldwide Marine Specifications.
All surfaces to be coated should be clean, dry, and free from contamination.
High-pressure fresh water wash or fresh water wash, as appropriate, and remove all oil or grease, soluble
contaminants and other foreign matter in accordance with SSPC-SP1 solvent cleaning.
NEW BUILDING
Where necessary, remove weld spatter and smooth weld seams and sharp edges.
Weld seams and damaged areas should be blast cleaned to Sa21⁄2 (ISO 8501-1:2007) or power tooled to Pt3 (JSRA
SPSS:1984)
For PVB and unapproved shop primers, the surface should be blast cleaned to Sa21⁄2 (ISO 8501-1:2007)
For iron oxide epoxy shop primers, ensure the intact primer is clean and dry. Weld seams and damaged areas.
should be prepared to the specified standard (e.g. Sa21⁄2 ISO 8501-1:2001).
For high zinc primers, grit sweep to AS2 International Paint Sweep Blast Standards or power tool to Pt3 (JSRA
SPSS:1984).
For blasted areas, the primer should be applied before oxidation occurs. If oxidation does occur, the entire oxidised
area should be reblasted to the specified standard above.
On split anticorrosive schemes, where Intertuf 203 has weathered, please consult International Paint.
MAJOR REFURBISHMENT
Abrasive blast clean to Sa21⁄2 (ISO 8501-1:2007). If oxidation has occurred between blasting and application of
Intertuf 203, the surface should be reblasted to the specified visual standard.
Surface defects revealed by the blast cleaning process, should be ground, filled, or treated in the appropriate
manner.
Consult your International Paint representative for specific recommendations.
NOTE
For use in Marine situations in North America, the following surface preparation standards can be used:
SSPC-SP10 in place of Sa21⁄2 (ISO 8501-1:2007)
SSPC-SP11 in place of Pt3 (JSRA SPSS:1984)

 

For the effort, you could put a two pack epoxy coating on.

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Peanut
two pack at end

[DHutch]

19 hours ago, rusty69 said:

.... Looking at the data sheet (attached) under 'product number', it mentions Epidac 2 HB 90-294 Epoxy.  So, is this the same product as Dacrylate Epidac ....

Ooo, good spot! And very interesting. Obviously someone must make it, and I had got a feeling it wasnt Jotun.

 

Interestingly, because its what Northwich drydock used before moving over to Jotamastic, we did actually do a significant test patch of the Epidac HB, both the ali and the black, on the base plate four years ago. Obviously I don't get to inspect that till next week, however we have no issues with the paints reacting. Elsewhere on this forum Dacrylate have stated "Epidac 2 HB Epoxy 90-294 is designed to go over all existing coatings (except bitumen), even those of other manufacturers" which fits with what most people have said about most epoxy paints going over most coatings anyway, certainly if the are 'aged' having been on a few years. Also slightly interesting as one of the main reasons I believe Northwich DD moved away from the Epidac is poor colour retention, which has also been suggested of the SML blacking. If it got damp before fully curing (touch dry paint getting silver/grey spots and runs on it if it rained even lightly) which is an issue for them as there is no roof on the dock. 

[DHutch]

19 hours ago, Peanut said:

Internationals Intertuf 203, from their PDF

 

SURFACE PREPARATIONS
Use in accordance with the standard Worldwide Marine Specifications.
All surfaces to be coated should be clean, dry, and free from contamination.
High-pressure fresh water wash or fresh water wash, as appropriate, and remove all oil or grease, soluble
contaminants and other foreign matter....

 

For the effort, you could put a two pack epoxy coating on.

Yeah, and I completely understand that, but this is about going onto predominantly sound existing coating, after high pressure water jetting, rather than onto bare or rusted steel. Hence compatibility with the existing vinyl coating is the foremost consideration.

[DHutch]

Right, well, we have just ordered a load of Jotamastic 90.

 

One tin of the 90 AL to touch up any bare metal areas, and a coat on the baseplate, and three tins of Black to do two coats both sides and the second coat on the base plate.

 

 

Hopefully all goes well!

 

[haggis]

You doing it yourselves? I must admit we have always taken the easy option and had matt do it 🙂 

[DHutch]

2 hours ago, haggis said:

You doing it yourselves? I must admit we have always taken the easy option and had matt do it 🙂 

 

We are doing it ourselves, yes. Rightly or wrongly we have always done the job DIY which I think is a mixed of sort of enjoying it, being a glutton for punishment, and being a bit anxious and or neurotic! However having watched Matt paint your boat when we where on last time, I can also confirm he does a bloody good job and takes care in his work. More so than other boatyards I have seen.

 

Daniel

[rusty69]

On 07/09/2023 at 09:53, DHutch said:

Ooo, good spot! And very interesting. Obviously someone must make it, and I had got a feeling it wasnt Jotun.

I went through all this at the beginning of the year. It was clear at the time dacrylate paints was reading the thread, and doesn't appear to have been back since. I think I asked them to comment, but they didn't. It made me highly suspicious of the ballastic epoxy from SML paints, hence my decision to use Jotun 90. 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by rusty69

[DHutch]

I'm sure it's good stuff, I have used Dacrylate paints as have Northwich drydock. 

 

From the test patches we did on the baseplate four years ago, the Epidac HB Ali (D) appears slightly more silver in places than the Leigh's/SW (L) M902, it's unclear if that's because the Ali has stuck better to the hull, or the Leigh's/SW M535 Vinyl blacking coat has stuck less well to the Ali, but either way both look very good, as does the area painting in two coats of the vinyl blacking (N) as per below photos. 

 

In short, it's all bloody good paint and likely much of a muchness!

 

 

These are right at the back of the boat, just as the swim starts to come it. Hence at we're 2ft8ish the edge 6inch or so doesn't stand a chance, but the rest is sound.