Lithium-Ion batteries on board.

[wandering snail]

This article has come up on FB. Made me wonder if insurance companies should be asked if they'll cover inland waterways boats charging phones etc on board. There have already been instances of near misses when these batteries have been found just in time on boats before they've caused the fire. However, I haven't heard of any boat fires where this has been the cause. https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/insurance-refusals-on-lithium-ion-boats/

Edited June 9, 2022 by wandering snail

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, wandering snail said:

This article has come up on FB. Made me wonder if insurance companies should be asked if they'll cover inland waterways boat charging phones etc on board. There have already been instances of near misses when these batteries have been found just in time on boats before they've caused the fire. However, I haven't heard of any boat fires where this has been the cause. https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/insurance-refusals-on-lithium-ion-boats/

Unless an insurance policy specifically excludes boat fires caused by lithium ion batteries, and assuming the policy does cover fire risk, then the boat is covered in the event of a lithium fire. Let’s face it, 99% of boats have eg a mobile phone or tablet on board and any insurance company that declines to cover that risk is unlikely to get much business. Recent inland boat fires have all been caused by conventional means, mostly solid fuel stoves. So fires from lithium ion devices on board does not represent a significant risk compared to other things.

 

And the article doesn’t mention the huge difference in risk between the different types of lithium batteries. LiPo is quite unstable, LiFePO4 is not. LiCoO2 combusts in a self-sustaining way (produces its own oxygen, and is therefore really difficult to extinguish) whereas LiFePO4 doesn’t.

[dmr]

My children had a near miss (with their house) when a Lithium battery exploded and sent the cells shooting accross the floor like little rockets. This was due to leaving non genuine Makita batteries on the charger overnight. I suspect the non genuines do not have the correct electronic protection to communicate with the charger. I do wonder if insurance companies could fail to pay out if non genuines or eBay Chinese bargains were found to be the cause of a fire?

[Alan de Enfield]

 

At the end of the day It doesn't matter what is said by anyone on this forum or in the 'industry' - if the insurers decide to implement a rule that any fire caused by Lithium batteries results in no cover. They will do.

 

Saying : Ah but mine are 'safe ones' is unlikely to hold much sway with them.

[nicknorman]

37 minutes ago, dmr said:

My children had a near miss (with their house) when a Lithium battery exploded and sent the cells shooting accross the floor like little rockets. This was due to leaving non genuine Makita batteries on the charger overnight. I suspect the non genuines do not have the correct electronic protection to communicate with the charger. I do wonder if insurance companies could fail to pay out if non genuines or eBay Chinese bargains were found to be the cause of a fire?

 

32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

At the end of the day It doesn't matter what is said by anyone on this forum or in the 'industry' - if the insurers decide to implement a rule that any fire caused by Lithium batteries results in no cover. They will do.

 

Saying : Ah but mine are 'safe ones' is unlikely to hold much sway with them.

Insurers cannot just decide not to pay out for something on a whim after the event. They have to pay out unless the cause is excluded in the policy terms. Far too much catastrophisation and scaremongering (when any actual logic fails) is applied to arguments eg "Oooh but the insurance might not pay" when in fact this is complete codswallop. Insurers are of course bound by the terms of their policies, otherwise there would be no point in having insurance.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

Insurers cannot just decide not to pay out for something on a whim after the event. They have to pay out unless the cause is excluded in the policy terms. Far too much catastrophisation and scaremongering (when any actual logic fails) is applied to arguments eg "Oooh but the insurance might not pay" when in fact this is complete codswallop. Insurers are of course bound by the terms of their policies, otherwise there would be no point in having insurance.

 

I agree - it could not be applied retrospectively, but if all new policies had that as a condition then it could quite easily be enforced and applied.

[mrsmelly]

Surely people dont leave anything pluged in charging when they are not in attendance? We dont charge anything overnight in case it was to set on fire, nor do we leave laptops etc on charge when we are out during the day. Many many years ago on telly there were ads re switching lectric stuff off overnight, I also always close all doors as was shown on telly, to contain any fire, or at least slow it down. I must confess that for some reason I do leave the wi fi on all the time.

[Momac]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Surely people dont leave anything pluged in charging when they are not in attendance? We dont charge anything overnight in case it was to set on fire, nor do we leave laptops etc on charge when we are out during the day. Many many years ago on telly there were ads re switching lectric stuff off overnight, I also always close all doors as was shown on telly, to contain any fire, or at least slow it down. I must confess that for some reason I do leave the wi fi on all the time.

Really 

I have never considered this a risk and often leave the phone and laptop on charge overnight.

Do you also unplug the  TV set ?

 

 

[dmr]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

 

Insurers cannot just decide not to pay out for something on a whim after the event. They have to pay out unless the cause is excluded in the policy terms. Far too much catastrophisation and scaremongering (when any actual logic fails) is applied to arguments eg "Oooh but the insurance might not pay" when in fact this is complete codswallop. Insurers are of course bound by the terms of their policies, otherwise there would be no point in having insurance.

 

I think you are over optimistic. Insurance companies often try not to pay out, and even more often pay out much less than the owner was expecting, though I suspect they often back down if seriously challenged. Some of the small print is quite scary. You must keep your boat in a "seaworthy" condition so if it sinks (other than a sudden accident) they may well claim that it was not seaworthy/correctly maintained. If you have a fire which was down to negligenge or a badly maintained stove they may again have reason not to pay out. I wonder if failing to secure and check a weedhatch is negligence?

[IanD]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 

Insurers cannot just decide not to pay out for something on a whim after the event. They have to pay out unless the cause is excluded in the policy terms. Far too much catastrophisation and scaremongering (when any actual logic fails) is applied to arguments eg "Oooh but the insurance might not pay" when in fact this is complete codswallop. Insurers are of course bound by the terms of their policies, otherwise there would be no point in having insurance.

 

We've had this discussion before. Many marine insurers are specifically refusing to cover boats with lithium-ion (not LFP batteries), even if professionally installed, and certainly if DIY installed.

 

Even if narrowboat insurers don't specifically ask about them or mention them in their exclusion clauses (because there are hardly any about, unlike yachts), some insurance policies have a "please disclose any other relevant information which may affect risk" box (or a clause buried in the policy small print), with a warning that failure to disclose such information may lead to reduced or refusal to pay out. Claiming ignorance might be difficult given the widespread publicity after the Boeing plane fires and various EV fires, these were all over the news.

 

If there's no such box then you could be OK in the event of a fire, it would certainly be harder for the insurers to wriggle out of paying but they could still try -- for example their policies don't specifically exclude you powering a boat from a small modular nuclear reactor, but if you did and had a meltdown I don't think they'd be happy to pay out a massive claim... 😉

 

Since almost all "lithium" boat installations use LFP batteries (which are *far* lower risk, probably lower than LA overall) none of this matters, but it certainly would for anyone thinking to use a cheap second-hand car lithium battery for a DIY installation (which is where the discussion came up previously). A phone or laptop is very unlikely to cause any issue, just like it wouldn't in a house, but a big lithium-ion battery pack (~10kWh or more?) very likely would...

Edited June 9, 2022 by IanD

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Really 

I have never considered this a risk and often leave the phone and laptop on charge overnight.

Do you also unplug the  TV set ?

 

 

No, I leave it plugged in but always turn it off. Same with microwave, turned off etc. If you remember years ago there were public information films on regularily re closing doors at night and switching stuff off. I have just popped out for a few minutes to pick missus up from her stitch and bitch, I did turn this lap top off from charging b4 I went. Once the habit is formed its second nature. Probably backed up by many years of living on boats where electric isnt for peanuts like in houses?

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Surely people dont leave anything pluged in charging when they are not in attendance? 

 

I leave my whole boat plugged in with batteries charging when I'm not in attendance. 

 

* I wonder what's the bigger risk; an electrical fire from a boat left plugged into the mains with a battery charger left on, or a leaky stern gland, etc, on a boat where the mains was switched off that eventually sinks a boat because the bilge pump ran out of battery power? 🤔

Edited June 9, 2022 by blackrose

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

We've had this discussion before. Many marine insurers are specifically refusing to cover boats with lithium-ion (not LFP batteries), even if professionally installed, and certainly if DIY installed.

 

Even if narrowboat insurers don't specifically ask about them or mention them in their exclusion clauses (because there are hardly any about, unlike yachts), some insurance policies have a "please disclose any other relevant information which may affect risk" box (or a clause buried in the policy small print), with a warning that failure to disclose such information may lead to reduced or refusal to pay out. Claiming ignorance might be difficult given the widespread publicity after the Boeing plane fires and various EV fires, these were all over the news.

 

If there's no such box then you could be OK in the event of a fire, it would certainly be harder for the insurers to wriggle out of paying but they could still try -- for example their policies don't specifically exclude you powering a boat from a small modular nuclear reactor, but if you did and had a meltdown I don't think they'd be happy to pay out a massive claim... 😉

 

Since almost all "lithium" boat installations use LFP batteries (which are *far* lower risk, probably lower than LA overall) none of this matters, but it certainly would for anyone thinking to use a cheap second-hand car lithium battery for a DIY installation (which is where the discussion came up previously). A phone or laptop is very unlikely to cause any issue, just like it wouldn't in a house, but a big lithium-ion battery pack (~10kWh or more?) very likely would...

 

It comes back to the differences between different sorts of lithium batteries. You allude to this of course. The Boeing ones were of course not LFP so not relevant to an LFP installation. My concern is that articles such as the one cited, don't seem to consider the safety variations in different types of Li battery, when as we know there are in fact massive differences. But I'd disagree with your last point, a small LiPo etc battery can and does go on fire, and in a mostly-wooden narrowboat interior, this can set fire to the whole shebang just as much as a large propulsion bank could. In fact probably more likely, because the large propulsion bank probably (hopefully) has better monitoring and protection than some dodgy gadget from the cheap end of China.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But I'd disagree with your last point, a small LiPo etc battery can and does go on fire, and in a mostly-wooden narrowboat interior, this can set fire to the whole shebang just as much as a large propulsion bank could. In fact probably more likely, because the large propulsion bank probably (hopefully) has better monitoring and protection than some dodgy gadget from the cheap end of China.

 

We had an I-Phone(I say we, I wouldn't touch one) and one day it was on charge and there was a strange noise, the case had pinged apart and it was bent like a Banana - it was "red-hot" - well not glowing red but to hot to handle.

Grabbed hold of it with a towel, threw it outside into a handy bucket of water.

 

I think it was a close thing to a fire.

 

SWMBO finally listened and we got her a proper phone as a replacement.

 

As an aside - I note that the EU are finally pasing legislation that only phones with USB-C sockets will be allowed to be sold in the EU, Apparently Apple are going to fit a USB-C alongside their charging socket.

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

It comes back to the differences between different sorts of lithium batteries. You allude to this of course. The Boeing ones were of course not LFP so not relevant to an LFP installation. My concern is that articles such as the one cited, don't seem to consider the safety variations in different types of Li battery, when as we know there are in fact massive differences. But I'd disagree with your last point, a small LiPo etc battery can and does go on fire, and in a mostly-wooden narrowboat interior, this can set fire to the whole shebang just as much as a large propulsion bank could. In fact probably more likely, because the large propulsion bank probably (hopefully) has better monitoring and protection than some dodgy gadget from the cheap end of China.

 

My point was that a phone battery is a small (but non-zero) fire risk almost anywhere -- at home, in your pocket, on a bus, in a boat, in a suitcase -- and is not seen as an exceptional fire risk, it's really no different to matches or cigarettes or inflammable liquids, and can be isolated or smothered or put out. A fire in a multi-kWh lithium-ion battery is a very different problem, as Boeing and various EV manufacturers have found out.

 

Yes a propulsion bank will (hopefully) be better protected, but this relies on good design and installation and protection from damage (by no means guaranteed, especially with DIY), and if it does catch fire in spite of this the fire is very difficult to put out.

 

As we both know LFP batteries are much safer and shouldn't be lumped in with the much more dangerous lithium chemistries like NMC, but many people -- and articles, especially scaremongering ones -- don't understand this.

 

If people do DIY installs of secondhand ex-EV lithium-ion batteries on boats to save money, it'll be interesting to see how long it is before the first serious fire accident happens -- and how long after that it is before all the narrowboat insurance companies effectively ban them...

Edited June 9, 2022 by IanD

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

We had an I-Phone(I say we, I wouldn't touch one) and one day it was on charge and there was a strange noise, the case had pinged apart and it was bent like a Banana - it was "red-hot" - well not glowing red but to hot to handle.

Grabbed hold of it with a towel, threw it outside into a handy bucket of water.

 

I think it was a close thing to a fire.

 

SWMBO finally listened and we got her a proper phone as a replacement.

 

As an aside - I note that the EU are finally pasing legislation that only phones with USB-C sockets will be allowed to be sold in the EU, Apparently Apple are going to fit a USB-C alongside their charging socket.

 

In the interests of balance, it was an Android Samsung (Note) that had the worst reputation for igniting when on charge. To the point you were not allowed to charge one when on a flight. Some airlines wouldn't even let you have on on board.

Edited June 9, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[blackrose]

14 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

In the interests of balance, it was an Android Samsung (Note) that had the worst reputation for igniting when on charge. To the point you were not allowed to charge one when on a flight. Some airlines wouldn't even let you have on on board.

 

I thought most airlines prohibited the charging of any device by passengers while onboard, not specifically the Samsung Note phone? 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

I thought most airlines prohibited the charging of any device by passengers while onboard, not specifically the Samsung Note phone? 

 

Dont think so.

[nicknorman]

6 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I thought most airlines prohibited the charging of any device by passengers while onboard, not specifically the Samsung Note phone? 

No. Lots of airlines provide in-seat usb charging sockets, especially business class seats. You are not allowed to put Li batteries into checked-in (hold) luggage. 

[peterboat]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

At the end of the day It doesn't matter what is said by anyone on this forum or in the 'industry' - if the insurers decide to implement a rule that any fire caused by Lithium batteries results in no cover. They will do.

 

Saying : Ah but mine are 'safe ones' is unlikely to hold much sway with them.

My insurance company know I have electric drive, they know I have Valence LifePo4s, they are happy because they know that they are safe and I have told them 

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

No, I leave it plugged in but always turn it off. Same with microwave, turned off etc. If you remember years ago there were public information films on regularily re closing doors at night and switching stuff off. I have just popped out for a few minutes to pick missus up from her stitch and bitch, I did turn this lap top off from charging b4 I went. Once the habit is formed its second nature. Probably backed up by many years of living on boats where electric isnt for peanuts like in houses?

When I leave the boat I turn off the inverter, 12/24 volts fridge/freezer means it's not needed 

[reg]

Ebike battery charging.

I always insist on using quality batteries, my preference being genuine Samsung cells. These I charge on the boat as it would be impractical to do otherwise. I do this probably 3 or 4 times a week for 3 -5 hours at a time.

I am not aware of any clause in my insurance preventing this, albeit I will now double check, as it would be totally impractical to charge elsewhere. I believe insurance companies are pragmatic enough to recognise this is low risk.

Just did a quick check and find that indoor charging of ebike batteries is acceptable. Here is sn example of the advice from Halfords

"Although you'll be using your e-bike outside, we'd recommend charging it indoors. Water and electricity doesn't mix well and you could end up reducing the power capacity of the battery by charging in the cold. If you're going to be using your e-bike regularly, we'd also recommend not letting the battery charge level go below 25%."

 

Edit to add

it seems that it is generally held that ebike batteries should only ever be charged with the specific charger supplied with or for your battery.

Halfords recommending labeling each charger and its matching battery.

Edited June 9, 2022 by reg
Additional info

[mrsmelly]

5 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

I leave my whole boat plugged in with batteries charging when I'm not in attendance. 

 

* I wonder what's the bigger risk; an electrical fire from a boat left plugged into the mains with a battery charger left on, or a leaky stern gland, etc, on a boat where the mains was switched off that eventually sinks a boat because the bilge pump ran out of battery power? 🤔

Leaking stern gland!! surely not!! well maintained boats dont have leaking stern glands. I did however always leave my charger on, connected to its LA batteries when not in attendance. 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, reg said:

Ebike battery charging.

I always insist on using quality batteries, my preference being genuine Samsung cells. These I charge on the boat as it would be impractical to do otherwise. I do this probably 3 or 4 times a week for 3 -5 hours at a time.

I am not aware of any clause in my insurance preventing this, albeit I will now double check, as it would be totally impractical to charge elsewhere. I believe insurance companies are pragmatic enough to recognise this is low risk.

Just did a quick check and find that indoor charging of ebike batteries is acceptable. Here is sn example of the advice from Halfords

"Although you'll be using your e-bike outside, we'd recommend charging it indoors. Water and electricity doesn't mix well and you could end up reducing the power capacity of the battery by charging in the cold. If you're going to be using your e-bike regularly, we'd also recommend not letting the battery charge level go below 25%."

 

Edit to add

it seems that it is generally held that ebike batteries should only ever be charged with the specific charger supplied with or for your battery.

Halfords recommending labeling each charger and its matching battery.

 

If there's not a problem charging ebike batteries -- which are usually a few hundred Wh -- in a house from an insurer's point of view, there shouldn't be any problem charging them in a boat. They're obviously bigger than a phone/laptop battery, but equally obviously much smaller than a domestic lithium battery bank on a boat (many kWh) so a much smaller fire hazard. And if they're charged with the charger designed to be used with them, this also reduces the risk.

 

I expect that the only time lithium batteries on a boat could be a problem for insurance cover -- or burning your boat out, which could be far worse -- is with large lithium-ion (not LFP) domestic/hybrid battery banks (e.g. using secondhand EV batteries), especially if these are a DIY installation. I doubt that any boatbuilder or electric propulsion supplier would install these professionally because they'd probably be liable if things went horribly wrong, and to cover their a*se would probably have to insist that any insurance company was informed, who would then probably refuse cover -- all of which is why all the boatbuilder/supplier lithium installations I'm aware of in boats are LFP.

 

I know that using secondhand non-LFP EV batteries has been suggested as a way to reduce costs, but has anyone (builder/supplier or DIY) actually gone ahead and done it? It's certainly not advisable...

[blackrose]

On 09/06/2022 at 17:55, nicknorman said:

No. Lots of airlines provide in-seat usb charging sockets, especially business class seats. You are not allowed to put Li batteries into checked-in (hold) luggage. 

 

That's true, but the last shorthaul flight I went on in March didn't have USB charging sockets and announced that no charging of devices was permitted. I guess they meant from battery power banks. It must vary from airline to airline. 

 

Anyway, my point was that they didn't specifically announce no charging of Samsung Note phones. 

 

On 09/06/2022 at 21:58, mrsmelly said:

Leaking stern gland!! surely not!! well maintained boats dont have leaking stern glands. I did however always leave my charger on, connected to its LA batteries when not in attendance. 

 

Some of them do and nobody can guarantee that a leak won't develop

Edited June 11, 2022 by blackrose