Eberspacher HS3 D4E with EasyStart Pro

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Just a little update. I took the unit out and it’s now being assessed at a dealers in Preston.

 

Cold innit?

 

I bet it works fine when they test it 'on the bench'! 

[Nightwatch]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I bet it works fine when they test it 'on the bench'! 

My thinking also. Then what happens?!

[Tonka]

1 minute ago, Nightwatch said:

My thinking also. Then what happens?!

Well it is either the wiring in the boat or the fuel line/pump in the boat

[Nightwatch]

They have had to make up a new rig to rest the unit as it’s so new. Should get a reply either this afternoon or in the morning.

[Nightwatch]

Combustion chamber flooded with water.

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

Combustion chamber flooded with water.

 

 

Thanks for the update.

 

If only someone had suggested checking for this back on say, 7th Dec, you'd have saved a week in freezing weather with no heating! 

 

 

[Tonka]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

Thanks for the update.

 

If only someone had suggested checking for this back on say, 7th Dec, you'd have saved a week in freezing weather with no heating! 

 

 

But why or how did it get flooded?

Will it happen again?

[MtB]

32 minutes ago, Tonka said:

But why or how did it get flooded?

Will it happen again?

 

Well to state the obvious, water in the fuel and yes respectively, unless the water is removed. 

 

Water in the fuel comes from condensation forming on the exposed inside faces of the diesel tank above the fuel level each night as the cold winter weather arrives. It is a good policy to minimise this effect by keeping diesel tanks full in autumn and winter. I could have perhaps avoided the exact same breakdown on my own air heater a few weeks ago, had I done this myself. 

 

 

 

 

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Well to state the obvious, water in the fuel and yes respectively, unless the water is removed. 

 

Water in the fuel comes from condensation forming on the exposed inside faces of the diesel tank above the fuel level each night as the cold winter weather arrives. It is a good policy to minimise this effect by keeping diesel tanks full in autumn and winter. I could have perhaps avoided the exact same breakdown on my own air heater a few weeks ago, had I done this myself. 

 

 

 

 

But diesel floats on water, so the water should sink to the bottom of the tank. The diesel pipe pickup for the heater shouldn't be long enough to go to the bottom of the tank. If this is the same tank as the engine then surely the engine would be picking up water as well.

[Nightwatch]

For the past 6-7 months we have never gone below 50% capacity diesel. Before we left the Banbury area we had issues with the unit and withdrew a sample from the bottom of the tank. There was little evidence of water.

 

We have since, during the ‘hot’ summer, remember that?, travelled and been delayed in the Skipton area due to the drought and lack of operation water supplies. During all this time the unit either worked or it didn’t. Since installation, I am told by the place that are testing it, that it has run for 111 hours. In my view, this must include the times trying to get the blooming thing working. We have only run it for the occasional water heating and maybe a couple of times for heating. It hasn’t worked for the past, at least, two months maybe a longer period.

 

When we arrived where we are at present, knowing we were staying put for a few month we topped up the diesel to full. We have run the engine for, say, an hour, without issue. The pick up pipe feed for the Eberspacher is maybe two thirds down the tank.

 

I have discussed the issue with the chap who fitted the unit. He has replied by text this:

“Just had a look at the heater and the heat exchanger seems to be a sealed unit I see no way water could get into the combustion chamber unless it’s faulty, it’s not like the old hydronic unit with a chamber liner, unless they are just not showing it on the schematic, as no o ring is available for this heater it doesn’t have one, I’d pressure test it”

 

I am off to Preston this morning to see what’s going on. I believe we have bought a rare ‘rogue’ new model of the Eberspacher range. The only way for water to get into the combustion chamber in any quantity is with the fuel or back up the exhaust pipe.

The engine operates okay, no white smoke, the the exhaust pipe has a, for want of another term, a trap, bend in it. Surely there’s a fault in the unit. Installation is okay, I can see no way that water can transfer from water circuit to fuel unless internal.

 

May have been cheaper to install a second amoroso at t’other end of the boat.

Hope I have described correctly.

 

 

[Sea Dog]

55 minutes ago, Tonka said:

But diesel floats on water, so the water should sink to the bottom of the tank. The diesel pipe pickup for the heater shouldn't be long enough to go to the bottom of the tank. If this is the same tank as the engine then surely the engine would be picking up water as well.

Actually, the diesel heater pick up should be higher in the tank than the engine pick up so that the heater can't burn all your available fuel and leave you stranded. @Nightwatch isn't one for not moving, so water in his fuel ought to show up in the engine feed first. Of course, that line may be being protected by an aglomerator which is something to check for water, but noting his long post above which just popped up, it seems unlikely.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sea Dog
Autocorrect changed noting to nothing, so I changed it back!

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

May have been cheaper to install a second amoroso at t’other end of the boat.

 

Yes - one of these would probably have kept you warmer ........................

 

 

[Nightwatch]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes - one of these would probably have kept you warmer ........................

 

 

Smell Chuck is a wonderful thing innit? If you have a bottle going free I can send an address.

14 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Actually, the diesel heater pick up should be higher in the tank than the engine pick up so that the heater can't burn all your available fuel and leave you stranded. @Nightwatch isn't one for not moving, so water in his fuel ought to show up in the engine feed first. Of course, that line may be being protected by an aglomerator which is something to check for water, but noting his long post above which just popped up, it seems unlikely.

Spoken to Preston. They have dried the unit overnight, and reassembled. Rigging up a test rig as this is the first of these units they have had in. He can’t do this on warranty as he can’t find a fault with the unit. The mind boggles.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Nightwatch said:

For the past 6-7 months we have never gone below 50% capacity diesel. Before we left the Banbury area we had issues with the unit and withdrew a sample from the bottom of the tank. There was little evidence of water.

 

In that case it seems probable that the water in the combustion chamber came from a leaking heat exchanger. I hadn't clocked until now yours is a water-filled one heating radiators not a blown air heater. But you say "little evidence of water", not "NO evidence of water". I think their comment about it not being a warranty issue suggests they think it got in there via the fuel supply. 

 

Further, you could ask them why they think it is not a warranty claim and if they have conducted a pressure test of the heat exchanger. And if they have conducted such a test, how was it carried out? What pressure, how long for, heat exchanger hot or cold? etc...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by MtB
Simplify

[mrsmelly]

Be thankful you have a proper boat stove!! Imagine if you only had a diesel variant of any type, just not reliable enough, and as you are finding out, much harder to diagnose. A proper multi fuel stove stove is sooooooooooooo simple.

[Nightwatch]

An update. Lots of new stuff.

 

The unit has been reassembled. Put on a test rig. Run for an hour. Works perfectly.

Spoken to Eberspacher UK in Plymouth, where I bought it. They are saying the same. Not saying it’s a unit fault.

Gave me a number of someone who worked for Eberspacher but since has gone alone.

 

Spoke to above mentioned. He immediately identified the issue. Good man. Our radiators are fitted that is adequate for the old boiler an Alde Slimline. A run out,  U turn and run through each radiator and return to calorifier and boiler. What I have to do is install ‘T’ junctions at each radiator. Already have 22mm copper pipes so that is good news. It won’t work with 15mm. Not convinced I can do it myself.

 

Still can’t see how the high pressures created by the ‘wrong’ layout can fill the combustion chamber with water if all the seals are in fine fettle and no defects. We’ll see. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Nightwatch

[Sea Dog]

5 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Already have 22mm copper pipes so that is good news. It won’t work with 15mm.

I talked to Eber blokes a few  years ago at Crick, where they also said this about pipework. My unit was fitted from new by Piper boats in who have used 10mm plastic pipes to the rads. "We keep telling them they're wrong, but they keep doing it" they said. Thankfully, they didn't tell my long serving Eberspacher! 

[LadyG]

My Webasto used to roar like a jet engine, I added Diesel Power Blast as recommended for heating units, at high concentration ie when fuel was low. It is now quiet, relatively. As my tank must be now getting low, I will add more Blast before it is topped up. It was expensive, but this only the second treatment in two years.

aparently it also cleans injectors and improves fuel economy, so must be a great investment!

500ml treats up to 750l diesel according to label. Read the small print for detail

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

Is it possible the water could have entered via the exhaust?

[MtB]

50 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Is it possible the water could have entered via the exhaust?

 

Unlikely.

 

But depends on how stoopidly it might be installed....

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Unlikely.

 

But depends on how stoopidly it might be installed....

 

 

Quite

[Nightwatch]

Mistake. Took my darling wife to Preston with me. Got in about an hour ago. Been shopping. Surprise surprise.

 

 

[MtB]

10 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

Mistake. Took my darling wife to Preston with me. Got in about an hour ago. Been shopping. Surprise surprise.

 

 

Did you buy yourselves a stock of spare diesel heaters?

 

 

[Nightwatch]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Did you buy yourselves a stock of spare diesel heaters?

 

 

Bought one. Can’t afford another for goodness sake. I have to say, finally, there’s nowt wrong with the Eberspacher as I have found out. It’s just the radiator set up I have onboard that is, seemingly not compatible.

 

Need to rerun the heating pipework to incorporate t joints and valves at each rad. I think I have to either lower the pipework or raise the rads to accommodate the changes. This I can’t do myself so need assistance in the form of a chap who is busy at present and hopefully will call round early next week. I’ve said I can pitch and carry and help. We’ll get there I’m confident. I have it in my brain box what needs doing. It’s how to do it. This cold spell ceases at the weekend sometime so things will look differently then.

Thanks for all the comments. 
In addition. Been told by Eberspacher that you have to use ‘car’ type anti freeze in the system as the central heating inhibitors stuff I have purchased is incorrect as it munches away at the Ali components.

So, anyone know if you can get undiluted anti freeze? It seems all I can find is ‘ready to use’ products. Which is okay I suppose, but I would have to buy a higher quantity.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Nightwatch

[MtB]

1) Taking a step back this whole this smells fishy as feck.

2) All the advice coming out of Eberspacher is included in this. CH inhibitor is designed for use with ally HEs, most new boilers nowadays are ally. The source of water in the combustion chamber MUST be the HE despite what you've been told. And finally its hard to imagine how a rad system can be 'incompatible' (unless yours is microbore). It sounds to me like an excuse to get rid of you...

3) Check the antifreeze thread running now for info about the proper stuff.