Fire extinguishers...

[Janz]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

and buy some top quality crimp terminals if you can find them.

 

I agree that a professional standard crimp done with a decent tool and decent terminals is probably as good as a solder one, but even then it can go wrong (see below). Also an amateur solder joint with inadequate equipment is likely to do as Jen says and wick down the wire so it becomes solid - that is  even if the solder had "whetted" the complete joint properly, but if you know what you are ding that should not happen.

 

Many years ago a terminal suppliers rep kept onto me to swap from solder to crimp terminals. I was resistant because we never seemed to have the problem Jen described and I was worried about damp wicking into the crimp causing corrosion, This rep kept on and insisted his crimp was as good as my solder joint so we got a length of cable, he crimped one end and I soldered. then we got the terminals in pliers and had a tug of war. His crimp just pulled out. He then grabbed the cable and pulled again. The conductor snapped. He never badgered me to go t crimps again.

 

On the question of bullet connectors, I learned to hate the things on old cars in the 70s. It is too bad cleaning corrosion off the bullet but trying to clean the receptacle  is another matter.

Haha..! I always thought that a properly soldered joint is stronger than the wire itself. Never been a fan of crimps or those hideous scotchlock connectors. They not only look ugly & unprofessional but they hold moisture & dirt.

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Looks fine to me, I've seen a lot worse. Be better with a clean though.

 

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

Looks tidy and well crimped to me.  Might need dusting though. 

 

See my earlier comment to @Jen-in-Wellies ...

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Janz said:

Haha..! I always thought that a properly soldered joint is stronger than the wire itself. Never been a fan of crimps or those hideous scotchlock connectors. They not only look ugly & unprofessional but they hold moisture & dirt.

 

And that is precisely the problem with heavy cables and connectors -- which is why crimped connectors are used.

 

It's very easy to produce a solder joint -- for example, heavy cable into a battery tab connector -- which looks fine from the outside but isn't inside, especially for inexperienced people or those with inadequate soldering tools/experience. Fine for Tony who knows what he's doing, but a recipe for a bad connection in the hands of others.

 

A crimped connection (assuming decent quality components and tools) is more consistent and much less reliant on the skill of the electrician and inspection afterwards.

Edited February 25, 2022 by IanD

[Janz]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Edited that slightly Tony.  It's a crucial point, and it's worth making the extra effort to get good ones - the mixed boxes from the pound shop aren't worth even considering.

 

 

 

Looks tidy and well crimped to me.  Might need dusting though. 

 

Labelling would be good too, but that isn't a bad example of boat wiring at all.  If it doesn't look like 30 snakes having an orgy it's in the top quarter of marine installations! 

 

Seriously? That wouldn't pass muster with me. I'd like to fit an automotive numbered fuse box with a decent waterproof lid & all the wires already factory attached & solder the connections further up the loom. Should address any vibe probs & probably less than a crimp kit & tool if I get one from a scrappie. There is a numbered key but you can't see it in the shot. It's a white piece of paper with the fuse ratings & what they're for 😬

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

Fine for Tony who knows what he's doing, but a recipe for a bad connection in the hands of others.

 

That is  exactly why I used the battery posts with a stud built in, so I could then use a decent eye terminal. Even with a welding torch with a small nozzle it is difficult to make  decent joint and that is before worrying about the melting insulation.

[Janz]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

And that is precisely the problem with heavy cables and connectors -- which is why crimped connectors are used.

 

It's very easy to produce a solder joint -- for example, heavy cable into a battery tab connector -- which looks fine from the outside but isn't inside, especially for inexperienced people or those with inadequate soldering tools/experience. Fine for Tony who knows what he's doing, but a recipe for a bad connection in the hands of others.

 

A crimped connection (assuming decent quality components and tools) is more consistent and much less reliant on the skill of the electrician and inspection afterwards.

Again, I'd probably opt for an automotive part from a breakers yard that has been factory soldered rather than messing about with a blowtorch near a bunch of batteries. How much for a length of battery cable from a scrappie? A pound? Two? Doing it yourself probably isn't worth it.

[Tim Lewis]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

In the event of a fire on a boat, leave the extinguishers where they are and GET OUT.

 

I have an extra, more than specified, CO2 extinguisher which I would use as an exit tool in my run to the nearest door/window for egress. 

 

Not bad advise but fires generally start small when they can easily be tackled with extinguishers, if I had taken the run at all costs attitude there would now be a few more burnt out building sites, boats and houses around.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Tim Lewis

[Janz]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is  exactly why I used the battery posts with a stud built in, so I could then use a decent eye terminal. Even with a welding torch with a small nozzle it is difficult to make  decent joint and that is before worrying about the melting insulation.

Think mine have 'eyes' for bolt connections.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Janz said:

Again, I'd probably opt for an automotive part from a breakers yard that has been factory soldered rather than messing about with a blowtorch near a bunch of batteries. How much for a length of battery cable from a scrappie? A pound? Two? Doing it yourself probably isn't worth it.

A good idea if you can find one the right thickness/length with the right terminals on both ends. OK for one or two cables, not so easy for more...

[Ronaldo47]

I think that this is an area where the use of  traditional tin-lead solder is not only allowed, but recommended. 

[Janz]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

A good idea if you can find one the right thickness/length with the right terminals on both ends. OK for one or two cables, not so easy for more...

Think mine all go to a rotary switch before the go to their respective gubbins like the starter motor etc, so I should be ok...👍

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Janz said:

However, all the connections to the main fuse box have been crimped on & I don't like that. I plan to get all that sorted with solder & shrink

 

DO NOT SOLDER YOUR CABLES.

 

Solder in effect gives a solid conductor, which under vibration can break off and you end up with loose wires flopping about - it could even result in your dreaded fire.

 

Boat cables MUST be flexible and crimped under the regulations

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

DO NOT SOLDER YOUR CABLES.

 

Solder in effect gives a solid conductor, which under vibration can break off and you end up with loose wires flopping about - it could even result in your dreaded fire.

 

Boat cables MUST be flexible and crimped under the regulations

 

That is simply untrue Alan. It is only true if the solder wicks down the cable beyond the insulation crimp. I agree that happens to most amateur soldered terminal but it is not as definite as you seem to imply. I used to bend the cable immediately after soldering the terminal, while the insulation was still soft, before making the insulator crimp. That showed in the solder had wicked too far down the conductors.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is simply untrue Alan. It is only true if the solder wicks down the cable beyond the insulation crimp. I agree that happens to most amateur soldered terminal but it is not as definite as you seem to imply. I used to bend the cable immediately after soldering the terminal, while the insulation was still soft, before making the insulator crimp. That showed in the solder had wicked too far down the conductors.

And again, that's because you know what you're doing and what to look out for. Many people don't, which is why crimping is strongly favoured, fewer things to go wrong and less skill needed 😉

[Janz]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

DO NOT SOLDER YOUR CABLES.

 

Solder in effect gives a solid conductor, which under vibration can break off and you end up with loose wires flopping about - it could even result in your dreaded fire.

 

Boat cables MUST be flexible and crimped under the regulations

I'm gonna fit a car or van fuse box eventually, Alan, with the wiring factory sealed & that way it won't be exposed to the elements or the examiner. Bear with me here. I will need a fair few spare connections for a stereo, some running lights, a few USB points & some other gubbins that I plan to add & space for stuff I haven't thought of yet.

Wanna future proof it...👍

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is simply untrue Alan. It is only true if the solder wicks down the cable beyond the insulation crimp. I agree that happens to most amateur soldered terminal but it is not as definite as you seem to imply. I used to bend the cable immediately after soldering the terminal, while the insulation was still soft, before making the insulator crimp. That showed in the solder had wicked too far down the conductors.

 

You may not allow the solder to wick down the wire, but many do (and don't know better) - even 'profesionally' installed cabling has it.

It is far too easy to get the solder to wick down and then you have a non-flexible conductor potentially flexing against the terminal 'ring'.

 

This is why ISO10133 "Wiring In Small boats:" stipulates that flexible cables must be used - soldering the end of the wires (can) results in 'solid conductors.

25 minutes ago, Janz said:

I'm gonna fit a car or van fuse box eventually, Alan, with the wiring factory sealed & that way it won't be exposed to the elements or the examiner.

 

You appear to be suggesting that if you cannot see it it doesn't matter if it means the regulations or not.

Hopefully you will not take the same attitude on other aspects of the build.

[Ronaldo47]

What you should not do is apply solder to  the end of a stranded cable before connecting it to a screw terminal like you find in a mains plug or terminal block. Ferrules should be used.  Soft solder can creep under pressure and give rise to a loose connection in a screw clamp..

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You may not allow the solder to wick down the wire, but many do (and don't know better) - even 'profesionally' installed cabling has it.

It is far too easy to get the solder to wick down and then you have a non-flexible conductor potentially flexing against the terminal 'ring'.

 

This is why ISO10133 "Wiring In Small boats:" stipulates that flexible cables must be used - soldering the end of the wires (can) results in 'solid conductors.

 

I agree but "can" is not the same as "will". Actually that is not true you need the solder to wick through the conductors but not down the cable.  I would suggest that there is more danger of fire from poor crimps than solder wicked down the conductors. Which ever method one chooses you need to be competent and have the correct tools and materials.

[Janz]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You may not allow the solder to wick down the wire, but many do (and don't know better) - even 'profesionally' installed cabling has it.

It is far too easy to get the solder to wick down and then you have a non-flexible conductor potentially flexing against the terminal 'ring'.

 

This is why ISO10133 "Wiring In Small boats:" stipulates that flexible cables must be used - soldering the end of the wires (can) results in 'solid conductors.

 

You appear to be suggesting that if you cannot see it it doesn't matter if it means the regulations or not.

Hopefully you will not take the same attitude on other aspects of the build.

No Alan, I will obviously see it because I'm installing it but nobody else will because it will be, for all intents & purposes, a sealed unit with a weatherproof cover & a connections diagram glued to the back.

Plus, it will be a professional job, both practically & aesthetically, unlike the grim looking home made obscenity that exists currently... if you'll forgive the pun.

My attitude to the rest of the build is mostly concerning fitting second hand salvage parts such as recycled wood panelling, a decent kitchen with a butler's sink & freestanding furniture from my house rather that the usual boaty stuff you usually see. I want some nice things that I can put in & take out as required. I'm going to fit a full sized wooden loft bed so I have plenty of storage space underneath for my record decks, records, amps & guitars. The bathroom will have a second hand, fully enclosed shower cubicle & tray. The lounge area will feature a futon so I can accommodate guests & my nice old oak folding table.

I have thought about this stuff, Alan. My attitude might be a bit rough 'n' ready to some purist tastes but there's a strong logical bent underpinning it...👍

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Janz said:

Cool, I'm not looking forward to the BSS, so thanks for posting this up. Hopefully by June all the work will be done but even if it isn't I'll get everything off the tub that might be suspect before the examiner comes on board, including my gas fridge that I was already warned may be a no no. I don't want to fail. I want everything above board. 👍

Not sure if I get this, my first priority is to have my boat safe at all times, passing the BSC is a requirement which is required for insurance etc. In the event of an insurance claim or any legal judgement, if your boat is not BSC compliant t, you'd be fighting a losing battle. 

Personally, I would not have a portable petrol generator on the boat when running, it would sit on the towpath or whatever, and petrol would be my last choice of fuel for anything on a boat other than a day boat with an outboard. If I had to have a generator it would be gas converted, expensive to run, but what is your life worth? 

I would only wear a life jacket if there was moderate to high risk of drowning. Young kiddies should wear them, most folks on big rivers, and maybe deep locks single-handed. 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by LadyG

[Janz]

17 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Not sure if I get this, my first priority is to have my boat safe at all times, passing the BSC is a requirement which is required for insurance etc. In the event of an insurance claim or any legal judgement, if your boat is not BSC compliant t, you'd be fighting a losing battle. 

Personally, I would not have a portable petrol generator on the boat when running, it would sit on the towpath or whatever, and petrol would be my last choice of fuel for anything on a boat other than a day boat with an outboard. If I had to have a generator it would be gas converted, expensive to run, but what is your life worth? 

I would only wear a life jacket if there was moderate to high risk of drowning. Young kiddies should wear them, most folks on big rivers, and maybe deep locks single-handed. 

 

It's a floating building site at the moment. I don't have the genny on the boat when its running. I keep it on the boat because I'm working on it pretty much every day & I don't wanna keep lugging it in & out of the boot of my Benz, where it would be an even bigger hazard. I'm on a very limited budget but the main point is to get the boat through the BSS that runs out in June. Sorry, I should have made that clear. It's not like other boats, it's a floating shell. All I really need to do is get the wiring sorted for the BSS because there's nothing else on board currently that should trouble them - no gas appliances aside from an old fridge that isn't connected. The plumbing has been sorted & so has the engine & bay. Just need it to pass it's MoT & then I can concentrate on fitting it out & furnishing it...👍

[Bod]

Be aware that should a boat with no gas system fitted be issued with a BSS certificate, then subquently be fitted with gas, then the original BSS will be invalided, meaning that the boat will have no valid insurance or valid licence, which means that C&RT can seize the boat for destruction.

Should systems that require BSS validation be fitted later, then the boat must be reexamined.

Please be aware that fitting out a boat cheaply can be done, only if the safety requirements are met fully at the time of installation.

You wish to put your furniture in the boat before deciding where to have the stove, if you are not aware of the requirments for stove installation, then it is very likely that a large amount of work will have to be ripped out, to enable the work to be done correctly. (far more fires have been caused by stoves, than electrics.)

As has been said, get and read fully the BSS requiments, anything you don't understand please come back and ask here.

 

Bod

 

[Janz]

4 minutes ago, Bod said:

Be aware that should a boat with no gas system fitted be issued with a BSS certificate, then subquently be fitted with gas, then the original BSS will be invalided, meaning that the boat will have no valid insurance or valid licence, which means that C&RT can seize the boat for destruction.

Should systems that require BSS validation be fitted later, then the boat must be reexamined.

Please be aware that fitting out a boat cheaply can be done, only if the safety requirements are met fully at the time of installation.

You wish to put your furniture in the boat before deciding where to have the stove, if you are not aware of the requirments for stove installation, then it is very likely that a large amount of work will have to be ripped out, to enable the work to be done correctly. (far more fires have been caused by stoves, than electrics.)

As has been said, get and read fully the BSS requiments, anything you don't understand please come back and ask here.

 

Bod

 

Cheers Bod...👍

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, Bod said:

Be aware that should a boat with no gas system fitted be issued with a BSS certificate, then subquently be fitted with gas, then the original BSS will be invalided

 

To add to this, the BSS certificate lists what appliances are installed so it's fairly obvious if eg a cooker and stove turn up at the next check.

 

Also when you are living aboard, gas systems fall under the GSIUR regs which are more picky than BSS regs.

[Janz]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

To add to this, the BSS certificate lists what appliances are installed so it's fairly obvious if eg a cooker and stove turn up at the next check.

 

Also when you are living aboard, gas systems fall under the GSIUR regs which are more picky than BSS regs.

Cool, I had no idea of any of this. I'm not trying to work a number here, it's just the way it is - can't put appliances in 'til the walls are covered & the floors are laid. Hopefully I will be able to get it all done before the due date but if not I'll have to go for it twice. I'll have a good look at the regs before I do anything but I have a blank canvass ATM...