Trouble starting engine....

[Parnz62]

Hi all

Since the weather cooled down we have been having trouble starting our engine, often taking several attempts to start her up. We have a 38hp Shanks engine and had no problems during the warmer weather during our delivery voyage from London. Now that we are moored and visit every couple of weeks we are having a lot of trouble getting her started.

 

After we have run our Webasto for a couple of hours or so the engine seems to start easier...

 

Has anyone any ideas why this would be the case? Are the glow plugs faulty? The engine turns over OK, and the starter battery is in good condition, she just won't start!

 

Any advice greatly appreciated!! TIA!

[David Mack]

Does the webasto warm the engine bay?

[john.k]

Are the glow plugs faulty?......pull out and inspect,under  power.......cheaper to fit new ones?.....or is there  a small air leak in the fuel system..............the other possibility is your engine is simply  not liking cold weather ,and you might consider a whiff of ether in the aircleaner before cranking (dont use ether with glowplugs)...........is there a cold start/overfuel position /knob/on the injector pump?......excess fuel will make big difference in cold start.....

Edited January 26, 2022 by john.k

[TheBiscuits]

23 minutes ago, john.k said:

you might consider a whiff of ether in the aircleaner before cranking (dont use ether with glowplugs).

 

I'd only use easystart on somebody else's engine ...   Not using glowplugs with easystart is good advice though.

 

Yes, pull and check the glow plugs is a good idea.   My engine didn't work that well on only one, and would not have improved on zero!  It's well worth checking if they are fast or slow glow-plugs too.  Mine are fast, so 5 seconds is enough (Beta engine).  Give them 20 or 30 seconds like the slow glow plugs on my old boat and they burn out!

 

Don't ask me how I know this ...

[TheBiscuits]

 

 

39 minutes ago, john.k said:

is there a cold start/overfuel position /knob/on the injector pump?......excess fuel will make big difference in cold start

 

That's another good point.  When starting cold, give the throttle proper revs (gear disconnected) when starting.  The actual numbers of revs will vary from boat to boat, but in neutral at normal cruising revs is a good start.  On my boat, that is 1400 rpm with the button pressed in first.  Yours will have an equivalent setting depending on your engine/gearbox/prop configuration.  It will be somewhere between 1200 and 1500 rpm on any engine designed after the 1940's ...

 

Trying to start a cold diesel engine at low revs with suspect glowplugs is just cruel!

 

 

[Parnz62]

Thanks for the advice everyone, the Webasto is in the engine bay so warms the area...I have tried it with revs on with no success....I still suspect the glow plugs are the root cause, but unsure how to test them, or even where they are! I'll try googling.....!

[john.k]

If the engine is somewhat modern,its possible the glow plugs are computer controlled,as for emission reasons,the plugs are run after the engine starts......If,the unit is somewhat modern,its likely that Bosch quick heat plugs can be fitted  ,which will basically eliminate waiting .

[Parnz62]

Engine is Shanks and boat is 2009 East West Marine (Chinese built), rather basic setup so unsure whether there is any computer control involved....!

[john.k]

Sounds like a "Shanks" is going to be a Chinese copy of some well known engine ......do you know what that is?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

29 minutes ago, Parnz62 said:

I still suspect the glow plugs are the root cause, but unsure how to test them, or even where they are!

Don't know the engine, but they will be near the top. Four things, in line with each cylinder connected by a wire, or bus bar from one to the next, so when energised they all receive power. Check the wires, or bus bar are good and the connections tight, with no corrosion. You will need an assistant, or a very long pair of arms and a multimeter capable of reading voltage (V) and resistance (ohms). Have your assistant turn the key to the heat, or glow position and measure the voltage between the wires, or bus bar and a ground on a bare bit of metal on the engine. It should be 12 to 13V and shows voltage is getting to the plugs. Turn off the key.

Next remove the connecting wires and bus bar from the plugs. Measure the resistance between the tip of the plug and a bare piece of metal on the engine block. Open circuit, infinite resistance is a dead plug. The resistance will be a low number of ohms, the exact value depends on the type of plug.

Jen

 

2 minutes ago, john.k said:

Sounds like a "Shanks" is going to be a Chinese copy of some well known engine ......do you know what that is?

Not Armitage? 😀

Edited January 26, 2022 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Mike Hurley]

Shanks is a Barrus engine, chinese.

[john.k]

There ya go.....Chinese glow plugs have a short and troubled life.

[BEngo]

2 minutes ago, john.k said:

There ya go.....Chinese glow plugs have a short and troubled life.

A description that can be applied to the whole Shanks engine.  The Shire is a different matter.

 

N

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Not Armitage?

 

You taking the pi$$ ?

[Parnz62]

1 hour ago, john.k said:

Sounds like a "Shanks" is going to be a Chinese copy of some well known engine ......do you know what that is?

Barrus Shire I think....

[Tracy D'arth]

This is the one with an insulated rather than water cooled exhaust manifold? I have seen one or two, seem to run OK.

[Parnz62]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Don't know the engine, but they will be near the top. Four things, in line with each cylinder connected by a wire, or bus bar from one to the next, so when energised they all receive power. Check the wires, or bus bar are good and the connections tight, with no corrosion. You will need an assistant, or a very long pair of arms and a multimeter capable of reading voltage (V) and resistance (ohms). Have your assistant turn the key to the heat, or glow position and measure the voltage between the wires, or bus bar and a ground on a bare bit of metal on the engine. It should be 12 to 13V and shows voltage is getting to the plugs. Turn off the key.

Next remove the connecting wires and bus bar from the plugs. Measure the resistance between the tip of the plug and a bare piece of metal on the engine block. Open circuit, infinite resistance is a dead plug. The resistance will be a low number of ohms, the exact value depends on the type of plug.

Jen

 

Not Armitage? 😀

Are the glow plugs attached to the wire and bus bar on the left? Its a Shanks 37 engine 2009

15 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

This is the one with an insulated rather than water cooled exhaust manifold? I have seen one or two, seem to run OK.

Insulated I think.....it ran very well during our 16 day passage frpm London up to the Fens, only since the weather changed to cold and damp have we had trouble....

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 minutes ago, Parnz62 said:

Are the glow plugs attached to the wire and bus bar on the left? Its a Shanks 37 engine 2009

That's it! The red wire in on the nearest end of the bus bar comes from the glow/heat position on the ignition switch. The return path is via the glow plug body threads and engine block.

[Tony Brooks]

Yes, if you mean on the left of the rocker cover.

 

First test for voltage at that busbar in case a fuse has blown. If you have voltage then take each plug out and apply 12V while earthing the body to the engine, it should glow bright red.

[Parnz62]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Yes, if you mean on the left of the rocker cover.

 

First test for voltage at that busbar in case a fuse has blown. If you have voltage then take each plug out and apply 12V while earthing the body to the engine, it should glow bright red.

Thanks Tony...as a complete novice, how do I test for voltage at that busbar? I have a basic multimeter but not much idea how to use one.....stepp learning curve for me I'm afraid...!!

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Parnz62 said:

Thanks Tony...as a complete novice, how do I test for voltage at that busbar? I have a basic multimeter but not much idea how to use one.....stepp learning curve for me I'm afraid...!!

 

Go to www.tb-training.co.uk and then to the electrical course notes. That has a section with illustrations on how to set the meter up. Then just clip the red lead to one of the plug terminals and the black to some bare metal of the engine. Turn the key to heat and see what reading you get.  You will probably learn a lot from that website.

[john.k]

Normally a substantial fuze on the glow...like 68-80amps.

[john.k]

One point,is its not uncommon to break off a glow plug getting it out ,if its carboned into the head......so dont just give them a big reef,or youll be doin the bizzo to get a broken plug out.

[booke23]

1 hour ago, Parnz62 said:

Barrus Shire I think....

Any East west marine boats I've seen have a Barras shanks. It's a Chinese engine marinised by barrus. 

The Barrus shire is a marinised Yanmar engine.....Japanese and more expensive.  

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 minute ago, john.k said:

One point,is its not uncommon to break off a glow plug getting it out

Hence my suggestion of measuring the resistance between the tip of the plug and a bit of bare metal on the engine instead.