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Refleks installation - BSS compliance


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I am about to install a 2066mk and could do with a few pointers on BSS compliance.
The installation is very tight on space. The installation needs to go in a corner between the end of a dinette bench and the hull. The installation instructions do not require a minimum gap between non-flammable materials and the outer jacket (this is a convection stove so the outer jacket should remain relatively cool).
 
Q. I can strip off the hull lining and replace with calcium silicate board but what do I need to do about the wooden end of the bench seat. Is it sufficient to fix a calcium silicate board to it and tile it/cover it in a stainless sheet? The same with the flue running up the cabin side - installation says a minimum 100mm from a non-flammable surface so do I need to strip out the current lining board and apply calcium silicate board instead? If so, has anyone managed to do this and find a way make it look half-decent, rather than just a strip of calcium silicate board running up the cabin wall? I wondered about replacing the whole wall with a large board but that seemed excessive.
 
Thanks
 
Alec
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34 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Q. I can strip off the hull lining and replace with calcium silicate board but what do I need to do about the wooden end of the bench seat. Is it sufficient to fix a calcium silicate board to it and tile it/cover it in a stainless sheet?

 

With the BSS some of the requrements are black and white (e.g. are there CO alarms of not?) but in others areas it is the opinion of the BSS bod doing the inspecting that counts. Bod "A" might say your suggestion is fine, bod "B" might say no it isn't.

 

So bottom line is, choose who you plan to have inspecting it, and ask them. Then they can't turn up on the inspection day and say "In my opinion, that heat protection is not really good enough". OTOH if you ask in advance, they might say just the board is fine, no need to add the metal sheet or tiles.

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

With the BSS some of the requrements are black and white (e.g. are there CO alarms of not?) but in others areas it is the opinion of the BSS bod doing the inspecting that counts. Bod "A" might say your suggestion is fine, bod "B" might say no it isn't.

 

So bottom line is, choose who you plan to have inspecting it, and ask them. Then they can't turn up on the inspection day and say "In my opinion, that heat protection is not really good enough". OTOH if you ask in advance, they might say just the board is fine, no need to add the metal sheet or tiles.

I thought a BSS inspection was black and white and there is no mention of heat resistant materials around stoves only signs of scorching There is if I remember correctly about what they are mounted on. If he doesn't like the look of it ask where in the regulation it says its not acceptable,

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

With the BSS some of the requrements are black and white (e.g. are there CO alarms of not?) but in others areas it is the opinion of the BSS bod doing the inspecting that counts. Bod "A" might say your suggestion is fine, bod "B" might say no it isn't.

 

So bottom line is, choose who you plan to have inspecting it, and ask them. Then they can't turn up on the inspection day and say "In my opinion, that heat protection is not really good enough". OTOH if you ask in advance, they might say just the board is fine, no need to add the metal sheet or tiles.

 

 

Thanks - this in part illustrates my problem. We have a brand new BSS so no need for inspection in the near future and by the time an inspection is due, anyone we speak to may well no longer be active. Hence the aim is to 'get it right' in a way that nobody will object to.

 

My background experience comes from living in a Grade 2 listed house and building my own extension. By reading the building regs carefully and making sure I was compliant, I automatically passed - there was no room for opinion. On the Listed side, I could put forward a proposal and once it was approved in writing that was entered into the file and stood against any new officers choosing to review it.

 

I am finding that the BSS is a lot more woolly and difficult to pin down, so whilst nobody can be definitive, I am hoping that a general consensus might develop - something along the lines of 'if you put 6mm calcium silicate board against the end of the seat and then tile over it then you will definitely have no problems' although that may be too optimistic?

 

44 minutes ago, starman said:

The flue pipe from stove to roof gets very, very hot. For personal protection buy one of the Refleks guards that encircles it. They look good too.

Thanks - yes, I had picked up on that and we have ordered a guard as part of it. I agree they look good, although I wouldn't personally want one in brass or copper - yet more polishing!

 

Alec

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39 minutes ago, agg221 said:

We have a brand new BSS so no need for inspection in the near future

 

But, as it states in your BSSC T&Cs any work done to the boat that involves an item which is covered by the BSS, MUST be done in a compliant way, otherwise you are invalidating your BSS and (obviously) without a BSS you are no longer licenced.

 

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

 

If there is doubt as to the compliance or non compliance the only way to resolve the issue is to have  BSS examiner examine it make a decision on it.

 

But as we all know the BSS examiners do not work to written instructions, they all work to their own interpretations so your next examiner may well fail it.

 

Such is life.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Why not ask one of the the UK importers, such as Lockgate Stoves their opinion.

 

https://lockgate.com/

 

If you get a written answer and meet it then any subsequent BSS  examiner will be forced to agree that it is compliant with the manufacturers agents recommedations.

It's a good thought - I am buying the stove through Lockgate (I hadn't previously realised but they sell second-hand stoves). Unfortunately whilst they had some of the information I needed, there are other parts which they don't. I have also managed to supplement the information directly through the documents on Refleks' own website and a reproduced on a couple of their continental suppliers. This has specifically enabled me to work out minimum distances from flammable and non-flammable surfaces, so the remaining questions that I couldn't answer through my own research are the ones posted above.

 

The remaining questions are, I suspect, not Refleks-specific. They are more generally about installation of heating appliances under the BSS, which appears to be rather subjective. If it was as simple as 'no signs of scorching' then that would be easy to comply with (quick repaint before the examination...). I obviously don't want to burn my boat out either, but in practice if the body of the stove does not get hot, I don't really need to worry about the insulation properties of the non-flammable surface attached to the end of the bench seat since there is no risk of heat conduction through to the wood behind, since it won't actually get hot, so it is only a question of avoiding surface ignition. This is the reality but I am trying to work out whether an examiner would also see it that way.

 

For the flue, it really will get hot so I do need to make sure it does not cause damage. This is more a question of how people have successfully dealt with flue installations in the past. At the stern-end, for the Epping stove, the tongue and groove lining has simply been cut through and removed in a strip, being replaced with calcium silicate board. This is functional but ugly. A line of tiles up the side of the wall to the roof would look marginally better but I am presuming people have come up with something that looks decent, so any thoughts on that welcome.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But, as it states in your BSSC T&Cs any work done to the boat that involves an item which is covered by the BSS, MUST be done in a compliant way, otherwise you are invalidating your BSS and (obviously) without a BSS you are no longer licenced.

 

If there is doubt as to the compliance or non compliance the only way to resolve the issue is to have  BSS examiner examine it make a decision on it.

 

But as we all know the BSS examiners do not work to written instructions, they all work to their own interpretations so your next examiner may well fail it.

 

Such is life.

 

 

 

This is where the difference in approach between Building Regulations and BSS becomes annoying. I want to be compliant, and to know that I am compliant, but I can't simply read  the regulations and apply them, them safe in the knowledge that I am compliant. Compliance should surely be a matter of fact, rather than opinion?

 

Cheers


Alec

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1 hour ago, agg221 said:

something along the lines of 'if you put 6mm calcium silicate board against the end of the seat and then tile over it

If you have room I would mount the calcium silicate board on spacers so there is an air gap between it and the wood, open top and bottom so any warmed air can escape. That will keep the timber cool.

 

Tiles mounted directly to wood provide no protection. The tiles themselves will be fine but will conduct heat through to timber behind. There have been examples of scorching to timber in these circumstances.

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4 minutes ago, agg221 said:

It's a good thought - I am buying the stove through Lockgate (I hadn't previously realised but they sell second-hand stoves). Unfortunately whilst they had some of the information I needed, there are other parts which they don't. I have also managed to supplement the information directly through the documents on Refleks' own website and a reproduced on a couple of their continental suppliers. This has specifically enabled me to work out minimum distances from flammable and non-flammable surfaces, so the remaining questions that I couldn't answer through my own research are the ones posted above.

 

The remaining questions are, I suspect, not Refleks-specific. They are more generally about installation of heating appliances under the BSS, which appears to be rather subjective. If it was as simple as 'no signs of scorching' then that would be easy to comply with (quick repaint before the examination...). I obviously don't want to burn my boat out either, but in practice if the body of the stove does not get hot, I don't really need to worry about the insulation properties of the non-flammable surface attached to the end of the bench seat since there is no risk of heat conduction through to the wood behind, since it won't actually get hot, so it is only a question of avoiding surface ignition. This is the reality but I am trying to work out whether an examiner would also see it that way.

 

For the flue, it really will get hot so I do need to make sure it does not cause damage. This is more a question of how people have successfully dealt with flue installations in the past. At the stern-end, for the Epping stove, the tongue and groove lining has simply been cut through and removed in a strip, being replaced with calcium silicate board. This is functional but ugly. A line of tiles up the side of the wall to the roof would look marginally better but I am presuming people have come up with something that looks decent, so any thoughts on that welcome.

 

 

 

This is where the difference in approach between Building Regulations and BSS becomes annoying. I want to be compliant, and to know that I am compliant, but I can't simply read  the regulations and apply them, them safe in the knowledge that I am compliant. Compliance should surely be a matter of fact, rather than opinion?

 

Cheers


Alec

 

There are 'good' BSS examiners and there are 'bad' BSS examiners, for many people a 'good' examiner is one that turns up, gives them a 'pass' and clears off, not even having looked at the boat (my last one was one of those), others want a true examination and to ensure that the boat is as safe as the BSS requires it to be.

 

There was a regular Examiner in a marina we were in who was not gas safe registered and who told 'potential' liveaboards to go out for a couple of hours whilst he did the examination as, if they were not there, he could not ask the required 'question "are you liveaboard ?"

 

There are a few BSS examiners on the forum (I know at least a couple of them that are very committed to ensuring compliance and are thorough) maybe worth addressing the question directly to them and see of they would be prepared to commit to an answer.

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4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If you have room I would mount the calcium silicate board on spacers so there is an air gap between it and the wood, open top and bottom so any warmed air can escape. That will keep the timber cool.

 

Tiles mounted directly to wood provide no protection. The tiles themselves will be fine but will conduct heat through to timber behind. There have been examples of scorching to timber in these circumstances.

Thanks David - yes I am aware of the negligible protection provided by tiles and the risk of a fire starting behind, and hence the advantages of an air gap. The specific point is that this applies with a radiant stove where the heat radiates directly into the surface, ie it does get hot. With a convection stove the surface of the stove itself, and any surrounding surfaces, don't get hot. I know this; my query was whether an examiner could reasonably be expected to know this too and hence understand that an installation for a convection stove could be different from that for a radiant stove, or whether they may not understand this point and I would therefore risk a fail, and as such I should make the installation suitable for a radiant stove not for technical or safety reasons but simply to ensure a pass. Thinking about it though, your comment does have a substantial bearing on the installation of the flue which does generate significant radiant heat, so maybe it would be preferable to take the whole wall board out and replace with calcium silicate across the entire panel.

 

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There are 'good' BSS examiners and there are 'bad' BSS examiners, for many people a 'good' examiner is one that turns up, gives them a 'pass' and clears off, not even having looked at the boat (my last one was one of those), others want a true examination and to ensure that the boat is as safe as the BSS requires it to be.

 

There are a few BSS examiners on the forum (I know at least a couple of them that are very committed to ensuring compliance and are thorough) maybe worth addressing the question directly to them and see of they would be prepared to commit to an answer.

 

I have become aware of this. My preference is to ensure that the boat is actually safe - my children sleep at the end where the stove is going so I have every reason to want it safe.

 

It's an interesting thought to put the question directly to examiners who are members of the forum and I would very much welcome their input - I don't immediately know who they are though.

 

Alec

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18 minutes ago, agg221 said:

It's an interesting thought to put the question directly to examiners who are members of the forum and I would very much welcome their input - I don't immediately know who they are though.

 

It is not my place to list the ones I know, they generally stay well clear of BSS threads because of the experiences & distrust many have for the BSS.

Maybe if you start a new thread "Help / guidance needed from a BSS examiner" you may get a response.

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1 minute ago, PeterF said:

There is a good Facebook group on Refleks stoves, https://www.facebook.com/groups/334808647035734/ and that could also be a good source of information.

 

There is a thread from earlier in the year with lots of narrowboat install photos, may be worth a look, see https://www.facebook.com/groups/334808647035734/posts/1132902143893043

Thanks - I recently joined the group and posed some questions - the ones above were those which didn't get an answer to so I wondered whether that was due to the lack of narrowboat-specific knowledge (or just my impatience :-))

 

The link to the installation photos is particularly useful, especially as some of them are very compact. I suspect a couple of them would not technically comply with the manufacturer's instructions, but on the other hand they are highly likely to result in charring so I can't see any problems. Food for thought.

 

Alec

 

 

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27 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Thanks - I recently joined the group and posed some questions - the ones above were those which didn't get an answer to so I wondered whether that was due to the lack of narrowboat-specific knowledge (or just my impatience :-))

 

The link to the installation photos is particularly useful, especially as some of them are very compact. I suspect a couple of them would not technically comply with the manufacturer's instructions, but on the other hand they are highly likely to result in charring so I can't see any problems. Food for thought.

 

Alec

 

 

I think just do the installation as you think it is safe.

Then if an inspector fails it,simply do what he says to comply with the BSS (or his) rules.

As has been pointed out, inspectors do vary.

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